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Leonbergers => Leonberger Discussions => : Binky July 29, 2008, 06:25:27 PM

: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: Binky July 29, 2008, 06:25:27 PM
Ahhhh- Sophie is out of control! We have been sooo soooo busy lately that we haven't had time to take Sophie out in public much.  And now I am afraid to!  I was walking her the other day and there were summer people staying in the house at the end of our road (we live out in nowhere so usually, there are no people/animals on our walks).  Their beagle came flying out to see us and Sophie went nuts- growling and barking and almost pulled me over.  I managed to turn us around and get away but this weekend we finally took a day off and took all the dogs to a doggy "parade" and "show" (just a cute little small town thing, very informal and Chicklet won "cutest" :))  I had Sophie on a gentle leader harness which had been working great-got it after the beagle incident.  We get to the dog area and she literally pulled me down and DRAGGED me across the pavement to get to a dog, growling and barking the whole time.  My pants ripped open and my knee is all torn up.  So embarassing!  Fortunately, she was fine once she got close to the dogs. 
Why is she like this?  People were afraid of her (she's 6 months and BIG).  I went and bought a prong collar which the breeder reccommened but can't bring myself to use it-it looks so mean.  Does anyone here use one?  Does it work?  Sorry so long but she is going to weigh more than I do soon and I can't let her be so crazy!  here are some pics- almost as big as Binky already.
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: ruffian July 29, 2008, 06:41:57 PM
I have used them, and will again if need be, Tonka will pull until he chokes and a prong prevents that like nothing else on the market. 

I use is on Gage occasionally as well if I am walking all 3 dogs I need to use it on him as well, alone he listens well enough on a choke collar. 

I am a firm believer in having control of your dog, if that means a prong then use it.

They make rubber covers for the prongs, get some of them if it will help you, but they do less damage than a choke and a dog can break its neck if it runs to the end of a leash on a Gentle Leader/Halti. 

Prong collars are a training tool, and should be used as one, you may not need to use it on every outing, but if you are going into a high stimulus area then it would probably a good tool to have on hand, IMO. 
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: jesday July 29, 2008, 07:46:45 PM
When we thought we were going to have major problems with Syrus running after deer I asked our trainer about a prong collar. She wasn't against them as long as used correctly and for training only.

She did say there was a drawback with heavily furred or double coated dogs as it is hard to get the prongs to make contact with the skin to be effective.

I found I can control both dogs at the same time by myself with a full chest harness on them. I'm not sure why, but they can't run away with me like a regular neck collar or gentle leader.

I can't believe I'm posting the picture below, not very flattering  but it is of me after Sophie pulled me full out like a sled, chasing a dragonfly. You can sort of see the scuffed knees. I still have some gravel embedded in one. >:( She  was only wearing a regular collar. The following day I took both of them for a walk with chest harnesses and a deer jumped right out in front of us. They started to take off after it, but I was able to plant my feet and hold them both! With proper "Leave it" command of course.

Might be worth a try if you haven't already. :)
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: ZooCrew July 29, 2008, 07:57:33 PM
I use a prong collar for Keiko although I'm in the process of once again weaing her off of it (did once in the past and she regressed to pulling once we added Gunther to the family).

I was against the idea in the beginning but I am a converted believer.  I had a harness I was using with her, but it really wasn't teaching her not to pull, only that she couldn't pull with it on.  And if she had it off, forget about it.  I figured something around her neck that was similar to a regular collar would help with training.

I am considering getting one for Gunther but am undecided as he really only is a pest for the first 1/2 mile or so on walks.

but I digress.  yes, they work great.  Just make sure it is fitted properly.  Someone had a link on here at one point on how to properly fit a prong collar but I have no idea where.
And Keiko is a double coated breed being husky/shep and it worked on the first correction.  The only problem with her is that I leave her buckle collar on so sometimes the prong collar is going over the top of the leather collar but since she's doing well I rarely need a correction anymore and we're slowly weaning her off of it.  Hopefully it will stick this time.   ::)
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: Gevaudan_Jo July 29, 2008, 08:01:32 PM
I use a prong when walking Zero! he is VERY strong- and if he wants something, i do sometimes have a hard time keeping him to my side. I believe as long as they are used correctly (and only when walking/training) they are very effective!
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: MagicM3 July 29, 2008, 09:43:51 PM
Yes Yes Yes ..I agree with all of the above..

Until you get real control and have more time with her I would use it..

I know it looks terrible..but used correctly is is the best I have ever used..and once you and Sophie come to an understanding of what it is you want and expect I wouldn't leave the house without it..

I would make sure you get the correct size and if necessary have someone one that knows show you how to use it effectively..

keep us all posted..
Tricia and the fur kids
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: VdogLover July 29, 2008, 10:08:56 PM
For years I have used prong collars to train not only my own dogs, but my clients as well if needed. On short haired dogs I use and insist my clients use the rubber tips.
If your worried about using it here is what I have owners do....
Place the prong on you thigh (if you have a long haired thick coated dog you may do this with pants on if you have a short coated dog its bare skin )....Now give a subtle pull to the collar(Not a jerk, they are not made to be jerked) What do you feel? Pain or pressure?

They are a great tool if one learns the correct way to size and use one. I think the transition to start using one and not using one is much easier on the dog then from other training collars.
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: FXgirl July 30, 2008, 12:20:24 AM
Sorry to hear of your troubles with Sophie.  She may be showing signs of insecurity and needs some confidence building.  Do you take her out on her own to socialize?

I just dealt with this exact same thing with my Bosco who is now a year old.  He was barking and growling at other dogs around the neighbourhood(not in class or the park-??) after some not so pleasant experiences and who knows what else and why.  We started desensitizing at far distances.  Every time I thought we was going to react I shoved treats in his face.  If he did react before I could catch him I would either turn around and walk away or I pulled up slightly with the gentle leader and he'd settle and sit and I'd start treating him.  It took a few months but wow, what an improvement.  I also had to tell myself to relax, be calm and have a loose leash as I'm sure I contributed to his craziness.  He has also learned to watch me when he sees another dog on our walks.

I would be careful with the prong collar in that it *may* make fear based behaviour worse.

All of these management/training collars have their safety issues.  If you can have two hands on the leash and only giving her enough leash to walk beside you...like two feet of loose leash...the less likely she'll be able to lunge forward and take off dragging you behind. 

By the way...I have one of those newer designed Gentle Leaders.  Love it.

Good luck!!

: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: TINKSMOM July 30, 2008, 06:20:30 AM
I use a prong with Tink. If I don't I can't take her out in public. She can literally take me off my feet if she decides to lung for something or take off. She just turned 7 months and is over 90 lbs. She is really good with basic obedience but around children she gets sooo excited she is like the tazmanian devil, but we are working on it. She also knows if I put it on her we are "going for a ride", because I don't need to use it much at home. She heads straight for the back of my jeep ready to load up. It doesn't bother her a bit. My dog trainer said they are actually more humane than a flat or chain coller if your dog is a "puller". Instead of that constant strain on the neck, once she feels the pinch she stops. I used it on myself around the arm and it is a "pinch" not a "stab" the prongs actually lay on their side and pinch not poke directly at the skin. Try it on yourself and you will feel better about it. I did that with our invisible fence too. I would never use anything on her I didn't know was safe and humane. The pinch collar allows me to take her with me anywhere I want to go and exposes her to different socialization experiences which are so important for her at this age. Try it and I think you will like it.
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: lookingfornewf July 30, 2008, 06:48:52 AM
I just walked Clifford on a harness for the first time yesterday and it gave me back the control I wanted. Because you are pulling them back from the chest and front legs it is more control than just their neck with a regular collar. Alone with me he walks great, we go out a lot. When he sees another dog he pulls pretty hard sometimes just to go see it and make friends. Earlier this week he did that and slipped his collar and ran to the person and dog. Fortunately they had seen us out before and weren't too freaked out as I was screaming and trying to grab him. He still only comes when called if he wants to.
He weighs 90+ pounds right now, but I am pretty heavy and he will probably never out weigh me. If I was little like my 90 pound sister or if he was pulling to be agressive I would probably try a prong collar. You can't be in public walking a dog you don't have control over.
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: People Whisperer July 30, 2008, 12:46:37 PM
Here is the link to prong collars use:

http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html

It sounds like you need it  ;) oops, I meant Sophie  :D
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: VdogLover July 30, 2008, 12:53:34 PM
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

Another link you may find helpful.

Thank you for the link on prongs. I am still looking for the complete German study that was done. I use to have it as a hand out for my classes but have since lost it. If anyone finds it can you please let me know.

Also does anyone know if a complete true study on head halters has yet to be done?
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: maxsmom July 30, 2008, 04:23:02 PM
I use one on Jake, my pyr, whenever he gets to be too much.  I can just put it on him now and he is a dream to control in public.  You don't have to pull on them, at all.  They actually correct themselves and it is great.  All of my dogs weigh as much or more than I do.  I would be afraid to take ChiChi out of the house without at least a slip chain, if not a prong collar.  She is so easy to walk and doesn't need any corrections, unless she sees people or a dog that barks or growls at us. I'm convinced she would seriously hurt someone, if she got away from me, so I will keep using the prong on her, for her sake and everyone else's.
Kathy
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: Binky July 30, 2008, 04:47:54 PM
Thank you all so much for your advice.  I did try the prong on my leg and it really doesn't hurt so I feel better.  Sophie did go to obedience class and was perfectly behaved IN CLASS- the minute we got out, she'd revert to pulling and barking at other dogs!  We will be taking another class in fall once things settle down.  Tomorrow I'm going to try walking her with the prong and will let you all know how it goes.  Thanks again - I won't feel like I'm a bad owner, torturing my dog, knowing that others here use a prong!
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: lorim2 July 30, 2008, 06:05:05 PM
Seriously they are great when they fit correctly and used correctly.  I wouldnt take marley out in public without one!  ;D
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: BHNY July 30, 2008, 06:31:32 PM
We have gone through lots of training with all of our dogs, and we truly believe that the pronged collar is actually better than the zip collar. I didn't read all the posts yet and I probably should but the benefit of the pronged collar is equal pressure all around the neck instead of a pinching that the slide collar produces.

People have this misconception that the "choke" is what gets the dogs attention but in fact it was supposed to be the sliding of the collar making the grating noise that gets the desired result, same holds true for the pronged collar. Just make sure it is the right size and only using it during training, it should not be on the dog all day.

Just my 2 cents

Bernard
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: Rajas Mom July 30, 2008, 07:17:02 PM
The prong collar saves my a** with Bo.  To be honest, we were somewhat lazy walking him as a puppy.  We have a huge backyard and did leash training there, and somehow I thought that would be enough.  Until real life stimuli were involved.  Ha!

He is a puller, and he suffers more without a prong than with.  The prong is like a gentle reminder, "Wait, I'm choking myself, and it kind of hurts!"  Without it, that darn dog could run/walk 10 miles and still pull!

I felt really bad about it too, when I first got one (my first obedience class instructor turned me on, but still). They sell plastic ones now, that look more like regular collars.  Makes it look less like you are walking some vicious dog (which makes me feel better on the inside).
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: macybean July 30, 2008, 10:23:02 PM
I'm glad to hear that others use them, too. I've tried all kinds of harnesses and leashes, and the prong collars have worked better than those. I would like something that worked a bit better. Riley can still drag me out into the street if I don't plant my heels when he sees a dead animal or an empty cup (I don't get it, either, but he has to check them out), and the prong collar is the only thing that's worked halfway decently. 99% of the time, I don't need them on either dog, but on the rare occasion that they want to see something in the middle of the street or want to chase a cat into a yard despite me saying 'no', the collars have worked fairly well. I still end up mostly relying on strength, unfortunately, which is why I keep trying new things.

: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: BigIrishDogs July 31, 2008, 07:34:34 PM
I have always used them, to great effect, and zero ill-effect. I have been using prongs for 20 years or so, and not one dogs has ever been injured, nor even seemed bothered by them. They are a great tool when used correctly, and fit well. As was already mentioned  ;)

They are illegal at AKC functions, so I made this little cozy thingies to hide my dogs prongs, and I haven't been caught yet!
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: lins_saving_grace August 01, 2008, 04:24:54 PM
I tried a prong collar with Lady once.  She still pulled me.  Big dogs have so much bulk in their necks that prong collars don't "hurt" them.  Maybe that's why some ignore it.  I ended up having better luck with harnesses, with and without the nose muzzle.  The muzzle always was so easy for them to wiggle out of, but the harness was just the right fit for me to get that extra amount of control during training.  I personally don't like prong collars, but if that's what works for you and if that's what helps you train your dogs, I say use it.  They all learn differently.  The problem with them is that they are essentially a collar and big dogs are best at pulling with their shoulders and upper body and collars aren't a big deterent in discouraging the pull behavior.
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: shangrila August 01, 2008, 04:46:27 PM
As everyone has already said, the prong collar doesn't hurt and is a good training tool that keeps you both safe by reducing pulling. But I have a warning: in my experience prongs can pop open when you are walking a dog. It happened 2-3 times with Zoey (and she wasn't even pulling when it happened if I remember correctly). The first time the people at the pet store told us we had weakened the links because we would use random links to open it so you should always open it from the end link. So we bought a whole new collar and were really careful about opening and closing it, then it still happened. So we stopped using it with Zoey. We haven't used it on Penny because she's just a puppy, but if we do in the future I will use a back-up collar in case it opens.
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: People Whisperer August 01, 2008, 05:12:26 PM
But I have a warning: in my experience prongs can pop open when you are walking a dog. It happened 2-3 times with Zoey (and she wasn't even pulling when it happened if I remember correctly).
Yep, it's nice to know! That is why the link Julie posted mentioned to use another type of collar along with the prong :) I think it is very important and most people don't know about it ;)
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: jennifer August 01, 2008, 07:38:17 PM
I finally bought prong collars for my two when I was almost hit by a car while being dragged across a busy street by Bear, charging after another dog. Within one walk, his behavior was perfect. The prong - when properly fitted - simply reminded him to keep his attention on me. It just took the slightest movement of my wrist to get his attention, which I did when he didn't respond to my verbal command. He never mis-behaved again, and learned to respond to the verbal in order to avoid the slight pinch from my wrist action. My dog walker's 8-yr old daughter could walk Bear in complete confidence!

Nakita took a day or so longer but she also learned to respond to the command to avoid the pinch. She sometimes needs a refresher but it's sooooo worth it. They both were able to walk without stress and discomfort because of it.

Good luck and be sure to let us know how it goes. 

 
: Re: Thoughts on prong collars? Need HELP!
: Binky August 03, 2008, 06:27:21 PM
The prong WORKS...pretty well.  I've taken Sophie on a couple walks and the prong definitely keeps her heeling when we're on our own.  She does still pull when she sees something new but she corrects herself quickly.  However, we took all four dogs out today and she was a total spaz.  I even walked her alone before hand to tire her out but once the others joined in, Sophie was pulling and jumping and choking herself.  Still, I did have better control so guess we just need more practice!  Thanks so much for all the advice/stories!