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Retrievers => Golden Retriever Discussions => Topic started by: Kelly89084 on March 06, 2006, 04:12:50 PM



Title: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Kelly89084 on March 06, 2006, 04:12:50 PM
We go to the dog park every day and the majority of the dogs are well behaved.  Of the ones that aren't, 90-95% seem to be golden retrievers.  I thought these were supposed to be sweet, reliable family dogs.  Why is it almost every one of them at the park has a serious attitude problem?  Is it just something around here or are they bad all over?  It makes me glad I didn't get one after all!


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Kelly89084 on March 06, 2006, 04:24:19 PM
We have a great deal of high energy dogs (including my own) in there every day though an they aren't starting fights with other dogs.  I have't seen a golden being mean to a person (although they can be pushy), but they seem to be much higher than average on dog agression. It's really sad.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: jabear on March 06, 2006, 04:32:36 PM
I agree with Tina. Regardless of the breed the dog is ultimately the responsibility of the owner. In my experience, I have never encountered a Golden that I didn't like. Sure they are high energy and can stand their ground when they need to but for the most part they are fun loving, wonderful dogs. In fact, when we were at the dog park a while back it was a Golden that was on the receiving end of some harsh doggy attitude.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Kelly89084 on March 06, 2006, 04:39:03 PM
maybe it's just here.  I agree that it's the owners responsibility, however it just seemed a little odd that there were so many.  I was wondering if it's too many bad breeders causing it.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Maggie's Mom on March 06, 2006, 04:56:09 PM
I grew up with Goldens, and our dogs were always very well-behaved, except for one female, Bailey.  She was just not a nice dog.  I rarely run into aggressive or badly behaved Goldens, but it does happen. Just like with any other breed, there are always those few that don't fit the norm.  Maybe you just see so many Goldens that it seems like they are all like this, but you see all different of other breeds, so you can't group them together.  Do you know what I mean?  But I do agree, it is mostly the owner's fault.  Oh, and just to add this in:  one of my friend's students got bitten by a Golden just a few months back... but you never really know what happened to provoke...


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Kelly89084 on March 06, 2006, 05:03:19 PM
It's possible that I notice it more because I see goldens as the "angels" of dog breeds.   ;)


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: ZooCrew on March 06, 2006, 08:09:44 PM
We have alot of goldens at our park as well, and I have to agree that many of them are not so well behaved, but a smaller proportion (maybe 60-70%). I think alot of it definitely has to do with the owners. Personally, my theory is that b/c they are so popular and thought of as being such wonderful dogs, that owners seem to think the dog will train itself and be perfect without them doing anything.

One thing I've noticed about golden owners though that I find somewhat disturbing is that they get very annoyed that their submissive golden (as many of them are) rolls onto its back when playing.  Apparently they think that the other dog causing theirs to roll onto its back must be aggressive.  No............ yours is just submissive.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Mom2Sadie on March 06, 2006, 10:26:25 PM
I don't think it's the breed, per say.

My guess is, the golden is the most popular dog in the country.  So the ratio of them to other dogs is probably a lot higher.  It's the owners that aren't training them properly.

Aren't goldens high energy?  Maybe they are a bit harder to train.

Tina

I agree that popularity of the breed has led to a lot of inexperienced dog owners with untrained Goldens. I grew up with Goldens and my parents have a 5 year old Golden. But when they got him, they did a very careful search for responsible breeding to avoid the problems that are popping up with Goldens because of bad breeding. Goldens used to be one of the most laid back breeds around. Ours were always hyper puppies and then became couch potatoes around 2. Their Golden now was a couch potato from day 1 and he has an amazing personality. It's not the breed, it's the people who think it's just going to be an easy dog and don't train. They are amazing wonderful dogs but they need the same training that any dog needs.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: brandon on March 06, 2006, 10:39:11 PM
Along that same line, is it just me,or are the labs being bred now very short? Maybe our pup was an anamolie, but she was twice the height of the labs I see @ shows, they're little fellows.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Kelly89084 on March 06, 2006, 10:43:40 PM
Along that same line, is it just me,or are the labs being bred now very short? Maybe our pup was an anamolie, but she was twice the height of the labs I see @ shows, they're little fellows.


I've noticed that too.  I don't really like it.  I prefer the tall ones even if it means they won't win in the ring. ;)


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Mom2Sadie on March 06, 2006, 10:48:56 PM
Along that same line, is it just me,or are the labs being bred now very short? Maybe our pup was an anamolie, but she was twice the height of the labs I see @ shows, they're little fellows.


I've noticed that too.  I don't really like it.  I prefer the tall ones even if it means they won't win in the ring. ;)

I think there are two types of Labs, show and field. The show Labs are heavier and more stocky and the field are lighter boned and a bit taller.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: brandon on March 06, 2006, 10:54:14 PM
Our lab was 80'ish pounds, and raised from hunting stock.. She was the most god-awful athletic dog I have ever seen.. She was great. The labs I'm seeing at the show seem to be not much taller than a springer spaniel, or somethig, they just look weird to me, but I've always seen labs taller than these.

That's good info to know about they two types, I thought I was losing my mind :) But I know nothing about the show circuit for labs. 

On topic, I agree about the goldens, it's a shame :(


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: chaosndestruction on March 06, 2006, 11:05:26 PM
Along that same line, is it just me,or are the labs being bred now very short? Maybe our pup was an anamolie, but she was twice the height of the labs I see @ shows, they're little fellows.


I've noticed that too.  I don't really like it.  I prefer the tall ones even if it means they won't win in the ring. ;)
I think there are two types of Labs, show and field. The show Labs are heavier and more stocky and the field are lighter boned and a bit taller. 
I agree with you, I worked at a kennel that trains labs for bird hunting...Almo st all the dogs there were lean and tall.

Edited because some how it got all effed up...


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: ZooCrew on March 06, 2006, 11:52:09 PM
yeah, the field labs are taller and lankier than the show labs, which always look fat to me b/c they are so round.  A friend of mine's husband gets field purbreds for hunting and their last dog was a field lab.  He was the biggest lab I had ever seen.  Unfortunately, they had to put him down last year at a fairly young age (I think 4-5) b/c his epilepsy just got too bad.

They now have a field spaniel (springer) that looks totally different than any springer spaniel that I have ever seen.  In fact, if I saw it just walking around I would never had guessed it was a springer.  Most hunting dogs have field and show types, and they usually look much different, due to the purpose being different.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Leah... on March 07, 2006, 12:39:41 AM
i did not read the other ppls posts, but my guess is people heard about "the perfect dog" and thought they could get away with not properly training it. so they let these dogs get out of control, but still claim they are the perfect dog, and they wouldn't change a thing. it is not the dogs fault, they just fell into the wrong hands :(

Leah


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Kelly89084 on March 07, 2006, 01:08:12 AM
I love reading the posts and opinions here.  You're always learning something new. :)


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: sc.trojans on May 21, 2006, 11:45:26 PM

As a Golden owner, I can respond to the original question. While much can be blamed on individual owners and lack of proper socialization and training, I believe the original question is simply regarding temperament (no specific examples were given).

I can tell you that Yes - the Golden temperament has been seriously compromised in the U.S. today and many now display fear aggressive and intolerance.  Why you ask?  An example of a breed that has been so grossly overbred and poorly bred in the U.S. without any breed controls whatsoever.  This breed is now a dime and dozen and most come from backyard breeders that have produced exaggerated traits and temperament problems.

Mine in particular (a backyard bred dog) has a heart of gold and is incredibly sensitive and emotional - just like what everyone thinks a Golden is to be.  She is also, however, a nervous nelly and jolts at loud noises. This, coupled with serious orthopedic issues (now also rampant in goldens) made her feel vulnerable with other dogs and caused her to become very protective of her right knee. My once sweet, happy, social girl, became snappy and snarly at strange, hyper dogs approaching her that she could not trust. Puppies, who are jumpy and swat at her face will receive stern corrections and all crude social skills will get disciplined.  She still loves to play, romp and wrestle at the park, but must know the dog and trust the dog. She readily loves timid dogs - she knows they won't hurt her.

I broke up a fight with another golden who jumped on a boxer in my park due to toy possession - the golden really turned on this boxer and actually bit.  This is a temperament issue.

Yet two other goldens in my area readily snarl at dogs out of fear - "get away from me" - I find in this breed it is usually due to orthopedic pain. A dog in pain will be grumpy - just like a human - and as the orthopedics in this breed decline, so does their temparement.

It makes me sad and disappointed, but I am most disappointed in the Golden Retriever Club of Amercia who is shameful in their lack of protection of this breed and restraint in breeding.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: sc.trojans on May 21, 2006, 11:51:48 PM
Along that same line, is it just me,or are the labs being bred now very short? Maybe our pup was an anamolie, but she was twice the height of the labs I see @ shows, they're little fellows.


This seems like a funny question to me, since I believe the real question should be: what happened in the U.S. when everyone starting making these grossly tall and leggy labs and goldens?  This is not the breed standard and not what they are supposed to be.  Look at labs and especially Goldens in the U.K. where their original form has been maintained much more effectively and you will hardly recognize them.  To be an effective field dog and perform their purpose, they must be able to be low, fast, and fluid.  With the height and legginess we have seen in these breeds, we have also seen a horrible increase in orthopedic issues and labs rank #1 in cruciate tears - a problem of correct angulation and structure based on bone structure and size.  Goldens have horrible hips and elbows now.

Many europeans have asked me what is up with the labs and goldens here in the U.S. and I always respond with the same remark:  "oh, its the American way - make everything bigger".


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Bella's mom on May 22, 2006, 12:59:37 AM
The only golden that I have had the pleasure of encountering is absolutely wonderful.  There is a sweet female in Bella's training class who is calm and very friendly.  Her and Bella were actually cuddling during class today! :-* :)


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: VdogLover on May 22, 2006, 07:42:13 AM
I have a 19 week old Golden at my house right now. She is a doll. Wonderful temperament, highly trainable, and lacking the "light bulb" as they are suppose to be  ;) I have however had one other who was not a nice pup.

Golden are just another example of breeding gone bad here in the states. Becoming an AKC popular breed is a sure way to destory any breed.

As far the size of Labs goes...
The AKC & CKC Lab standard allow taller dogs then their english counter parts/KC. The hunting stock labs run way out of this range.
 If you look back at OLD Lab pictures they do not look like the hunting stock seen here in the states they look far more like the "show" dogs. Most people here are just use to seeing the feild type of Labs so when they see one who is to standard they think its wrong.

http://personal.pitnet.net/ldoll/labrador%20Retriever%20history.htm

KC standard Size:
dogs: 56-57 cms (22- 22 1/2 ins); bitches: 55-56 cms (21 1/2 -22 ins).
AKC Standard:Size
Size--
dog is 22 to 24 inches; for a bitch is 21 to 23 inches. Any variance greater than inch above or below these heights is a disqualificati on.

CKC
Height at shoulders -
dogs, 22 1/2 - 24 1/2 in. (57-62 cm);
bitches, 21 1/2 - 23 1/2 in. (54-60 cm).



Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Saint and Mal mom on May 22, 2006, 08:00:03 PM
I don't know a whole lot about temperament of Goldens, but I do have one friend who has a Golden Retriever. Just went and saw him tonight. Maybe it's just him, but he's very clingy and buggy! Are they usually like that? Is he just weird? I mean, like, would not move 2 inches away from anyone ever! A lot of the Goldens around here are very protective, but I don't know personally how they are.

I suppose I have noticed the difference in Lab types somewhat. I prefer the taller, leaner field type personally. My thing is that Labradors are sooooo overly popular today. Why? It may be for some that they are a very adaptable, good natured breed, but I think more of what it is is that Labs are everywhere, and when a person thinks, hey, I want a dog, they see that everyone else has a Lab, don't do any research on any other breed and just go get a Lab! Be unique! Do something different! And do your homework. Everytime I see someone with a dog, I'll say, "Hey mom, guess what kind of dog so-and-so has?" And of course, it's a lab.
I don't know. Maybe I'm just griping here, so excuse me please. But I just wish people would be willing to be different. Uniformity irritates me!


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: VdogLover on May 22, 2006, 11:19:51 PM
Maybe it's just him, but he's very clingy and buggy!>>>

LOL yeah thats pretty much how they are suppose to be. They seek attention and love to smoosh themselves into you.


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: Yaz on May 23, 2006, 07:15:22 AM
Here in Toronto, Ontario, we are noticing a rise in aggressive Goldens. There are a few breeders whose lines are still wonderful, but as other posts mentioned, the proliferation of breeding for money is causing a lot of trouble with this wonderful breed.
The funny thing is that I have had people/other dog owners say to me when they meet our Saint,
"Why didn't you want to get a Golden/Lab/Doodle?".
At first I tried to explain our reasons for getting a Saint, but have now shortened my answer to
"Because they have not had their temperment ruined like many of the breeds that used to be dependablely great dogs."


Title: Re: What happened to the Goldens?
Post by: sc.trojans on June 04, 2006, 08:01:05 PM

To follow up on my original point about deteriorating temperaments, often tied to deteriorating orthopedics, it is worth noting that it is often unuseful to judege puppies however.  My backyard bred golden was an angel and LOVED dogs for the first 2 1/2 years of her life. It is very common for Goldens to mature and lose their "party attitude", at which time they become much more selective about the dogs they will engage with and the behavior they will tolerate.  This was the case with my girl.

I also want to emphasize at the risk of making goldens sound so bad - there is nothing inappropriate or "aggressive" about a dog growling to say "stop that" - using their voice is highly appropriate corrective action and much better than true aggression - which is to bite. We have become lax about our definition of aggression and this is not useful.  I know many who think dogs who growl at hyper dogs or puppies are being aggressive, when in reality they are disciplining and teaching - something everyone should want their hyper lab or golden puppy to receive - they learn better from adult dogs about how to behave than they do from us humans.  As long as the discipline isn't over the top, it is important instruction.

We shouldn't be too quick to judge the growling dog as the problem - more often than not, it is the quiet dog who committed the greatest offense in the dog world and is the problem.  Check out this article to understand more about what I mean: Entitled "He Just Wants to Say Hi" http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html