Author Topic: Nosodes....Need opinions  (Read 6938 times)

doggylover

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Nosodes....Need opinions
« on: June 09, 2006, 07:07:11 pm »
Our breeder requires nosode use in order to warranty her pups.  I have searched quite a bit on the net and it appears that there are strong arguments both ways.  Do any of you know anything about the use of nosodes?  The pros and cons?

Offline Bella's mom

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2006, 08:18:23 pm »
Maybe I'm an idiot, but I don't know what nosodes are.???
Tessie - Belladonna's and Mojo's Mom

Icerotti

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2006, 08:22:19 pm »
Maybe I'm an idiot, but I don't know what nosodes are.???

 Your not an idiot... I didn't know either.  I will let Rhonda explain it though... ;)

doggylover

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2006, 08:27:11 pm »
IDIOT!!!!! ROFL I'm totally kidding... if you are one, then I am an idiot too, because I only heard of them recently!
They are a naturapathic alternative to mainstream vaccines against like parvo and rabies and stuff.  You hear horror stories both ways, of dogs getting over vacinated, or dying from vaccinations, or of people not vaccinating and dogs dying from parvo.  Our breeder for our upcoming PUPPY! uses nosodes and believes so strongly in them that she cancels the puppy warranty if you don't use nosodes (I think, that was the impression I got) and feed either Canidae (or equivalent) or all organic raw diet.  We are doing the raw thing, and I would love to do nosodes if there isn't a bad side to them. 
The people who say no to nosodes say they don't work. 
 :D 

Offline Bella's mom

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2006, 08:30:33 pm »
IDIOT!!!!! ROFL I'm totally kidding... if you are one, then I am an idiot too, because I only heard of them recently!
They are a naturapathic alternative to mainstream vaccines against like parvo and rabies and stuff.  You hear horror stories both ways, of dogs getting over vacinated, or dying from vaccinations, or of people not vaccinating and dogs dying from parvo.  Our breeder for our upcoming PUPPY! uses nosodes and believes so strongly in them that she cancels the puppy warranty if you don't use nosodes (I think, that was the impression I got) and feed either Canidae (or equivalent) or all organic raw diet.  We are doing the raw thing, and I would love to do nosodes if there isn't a bad side to them. 
The people who say no to nosodes say they don't work. 
 :D 

I would be scared that they wouldn't actually protect your puppy.  Wouldn't it be horrible if the pup got parvo soon after you got her?  I don't know what to suggest????
Tessie - Belladonna's and Mojo's Mom

doggylover

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2006, 08:34:20 pm »
Do you have to use ONLY nosodes?  Are you allowed to use them in combination with common vaccines???
That is an excellent question.  My impression from the readings was that the point of them is that they are a good alternative to the 'more harsh' common vaccines.  I wonder if maybe some of the vaccines are worse than others, and could be replaced by the nosodes.  I'll see if I can find that out. 

doggylover

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2006, 08:59:13 pm »
I am ALL for natural medicine ... but there are a few things I would worry about with ONLY using the nosodes.  I know that in most places you're required to either vaccinate (or titer) for rabies.  Also, if you ever planned to board her, they wouldn't let her stay without certain vaccines. 

Other than the laws and stipulations, I'm with Bella's mom.  I would just be so very concerned that something would happen, and my pup wouldn't be protected.  I would talk with your breeder as well about her experiences and suggestions.
That is actually my #1 concern, her not being protected VS her getting sick from vaccination.  Her breeder is very biased towards nosodes..peopl e seem to be strongly for or against.
I was hoping to get your opinions because I respect your opinions soooo much.

Offline Bella's mom

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2006, 11:26:40 pm »
Do you have a veterinarian that you really trust?  You know, not one who wants to make money himself so he'll definitely tell you to go with the usual vaccines??  If you do, I would have a long discussion about how he/she feels about the natural vaccines.  Your vet should provide reasons for why they feel one way or the other.  If you're lucky enough to have one like mine, they will be completely honest about their opinion, with no hidden agenda.
Tessie - Belladonna's and Mojo's Mom

doggylover

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2006, 12:34:47 am »
I'm going to call him on Monday (my vet) and I'll also check with some breeders.  I'm glad I posted this, its heading me in the right direction...
 :)

Offline kathryn

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2006, 09:02:01 am »
I didn't know what nosodes were until this thread but then I started reading about them last night.  I would definitely want more information about them but I don't think I would use them solely and not use vaccines.  Just my opinion but I like the security of knowing my pup has been vaccinated.  Not only that but if I read correctly the titering for rabies doesn't work if you use the nosodes.

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Offline Imani's Mom

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2006, 11:05:22 am »
The main idea behind nosodes is that vaccines, in combinations of 4-5 diseases all at the same time, are weakening the immune system rather than strengthening it, and the next dose being given before the immune system has had a chance to begin building immunity toward that particular virus; and nosodes DO contain the same viruses you are using in vaccines, but in smaller INDIVIDUAL doses, so your pets can build immunity to one disease at a time, and not weaken the immune system.   Also, many believe injecting vaccines into our pets is the cause or an additional cause, of so many of the cancers we are seeing these days in so many pets.    The rabies vaccine is required by law in many states, so that may HAVE to be given, but should NOT be given at the same time as any other vaccines.  If you are using nosodes, they should be in place of the equivalent vaccine, not in addition to.  Doing that just defeats the purpose.  Many studies have been done that state nosodes DO IN FACT work, and other studies have been done that say they don't.   Generally, the studies for either side are done by someone who has an interest in either making money from vaccines, or groups of people using nosodes and wanting to further THEIR goals.   There is a ton of info out there to support both sides, depending on which side you choose to believe.

MY belief is that healthy animals, not having to fight off all of the toxins being used on or injected into most pets these days, have a much stronger immune system, and are able to fight off many of the diseases that they are exposed to.  Flea/tick medicines, as well as heartworm preventatives, are all toxins, which in turn make our pets toxic, in order to kill off the parasites we are seeking to prevent.  Healthy immune systems, in healthy pets, make those pets less appetizing to parasites-  for example, if you have 3- 8 week old puppies- one who is totally healthy and eating a top of the line food, one who is borderline healthy,  eating a medium quality food, and one who is thin and not healthy who is eating grocery store food, and you introduce fleas...  you might find a few fleas on the first puppy, more on the second puppy, but most all of them on the third puppy, who is also likely to become dehydrated from all those fleas draining its blood supply and possibly even die from the 'attack' before you have a chance to get him/her built back up.     So, in the long run, if you start with a healthy baby, use high quality food, and eliminate all the toxins, you will have a headstart  in keeping them healthy no matter what they are exposed to.   Nosodes alone will not necessarily save a life, if the pup is taking in toxins from other things, and poor quality food.  In combination with the best of everything, you have a much higher chance of that puppy fighting off diseases and parasites BECAUSE s/he is already healthy to begin with.    Nosodes are tiny quantities of each of the diseases, given in a killed form, at the proper times, to help the puppy build immunities to that particular disease WHILE healthy, with NO chance of contracting that disease as they are with vaccines (vaccines CAN cause the pup to come down with the virus they are being vaccinated for, though it is a small chance).

I honestly know NOTHING about bullmastiffs or those who breed them, so I cannot give you any thoughts on that.  My guys are English mastiffs, from a top breeder.  I can ask my breeder if she knows anything about them, and see what she suggests, if you'd like.  Being that she is very much involved in the dogshow scene, she may even know many of the bullmastiff breeders, and be able to tell you who is best.   Her website has a TON of info on the holistic side of puppy raising, and she is an expert on feeding/nutrition of dogs.  PM me for the link, if you want it.

Weedsport, NY

doggylover

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2006, 12:25:31 pm »
I got your PM and it was wonderful, thanks again for the comprehensive information!
 :)

Offline sc.trojans

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2006, 02:55:37 pm »

Imani's Mom said it so well I will do what I can not repeat here.  She said it right.

Unfortunately, we live in a society today where we do not question vaccines - they are such a pushed medical procedure by trusted medical professionals.  There are scores of information out there on the danger of vaccines today however if people want to do their homework and look. The CDC has established an entire separate agency dedicated solely to vaccines to handle all of the lawsuits on a monthly and yearly basis for serious side effects and premature deaths resulting from vaccines.  It is a prolific problem and my hope is more information will be forthcoming.

As Imani's mom stated however, it is a healthy immune system that protects and fights disease - NOT vaccines. Vaccines ARE the disease, as well as many other chemicals. There is no guarantee in them, they often fail, and they often become virulent (causing the actual disease they are aiming to prevent).  This the primary argument against the lepto vaccine for instance - it actually causes lepto more often than not (either acute or carrier state).

What we should be focused on is building a healthy immune system, through controlled natural exposure to illness and disease in order to build resistance, feed a healthy diet, and avoid chemical/toxin assaults on the system.  My dogs have never been vaccinated - a lesson learned after poor health, allergies, cancer and auto-immune problems in prior dogs.  My current dogs are the healthiest I have ever had and actively socialize in a large play group of dogs. A puppy in this group got Parvo - no known parvo in my city so I am convinced from her vaccine - and several dogs in the group got sick. Diarrhea and vomiting were common in all of these vaccinated dogs that were supposedly "protected" - my dogs?  Not a single sign of illness. I focused on their immune system and started boosting it when we learned of the illness through diet and vitamin supplementatio n. My girls' best friend is only now returning to normal and eating regularly again...my girls never skipped a beat.  It truly is the immune system - and vaccines are giving a hugely false sense of security.

Nosodes are based on the homeopathic principle - you may see many of my other posts here referencing homeopathy. It can be given as a preventative or to treat disease. There are mixed views on this since most homeopaths believe it should not be given preventatively, but rather only when exposure has occurred. Conventional science has a problem with homeopathy, so most vets will not support and it is against their oath - they like to say that "nosodes are not proven".  There isn't a lot of "clinical trial" study to support nosodes, but they have been used in the UK for more than 30 years as a matter of course. In the UK, nosodes have historically performed much better than vaccines. This is all anecdotal evidence through vet reporting however. No medical body has any vested interest to pay for clinical trials so it is unlikely to happen.

One important fact about nosodes - they should NEVER be given with vaccines or after vaccination to try to antidote them.

Also, Nosodes, like vaccines, do not confer immunity. Only the immune system can do this.

I highly recommend you purchase Catherine O'Driscoll's book "Shock to the System"...she dedicates an entire chapter to nosodes, what they are, how they should be used if at all, and all the scientific references available regarding them. She discusses vaccination, the immune system, clinical studies and nutrition as well.  An excellent and highly informative book about the vet profession and I can't recommend it enough.

SC Trojans
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Offline sc.trojans

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Re: Nosodes....Need opinions
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2006, 06:47:51 pm »

I am not here to suggest that everything offered in the market is effective and valid without a clinical trial - sure you have seen things that don't work. I can think of scores as well. But I also know better than to think a clinical trial is any guarantee of anything either.  Does it work in practice or doesn't it?  Thirty years of widespread practice isn't meaningless and there are studies, albeit few on nosodes for those interested in looking.

For those who need clinical trials, then nosodes and anything else not blind trialed, will not be attractive to you.  Depends on your mindset.  I know that those who come from deeply rooted scientific families cannot let go of this and find it difficult to grasp - that's ok. I am not here to advocate following anything blindly, without due diligence and research, whether traditional or alternative. I  do not understand however the mind that has been taught to trust a purchased clinical trial over practical real-life experience.  1,000 people telling me something consistent will always mean more to me than someone's clinical trial.

I do not personally use nosodes myself because they aren't necessary for me, but neither are vaccines and at least nosodes are the disease, nothing but the disease and no other chemicals, formaldehyde, brain tissues and bacterias. This is what is harmful. If everyone is making a choice to vaccinate because they understand how they work, what they do in the body, their failure rate, their health risks, their duration of immunity, and the true incidence and risk of disease to determine if they are even needed - then great - I will always respect that. I do not denounce the notion of vaccination - just the safety and necessity of current vaccines.

As for the last poster's reports on the low number of vaccine suits deemed valid - I have to choose to not debate that but ask everyone to use their own common sense here as well. People inject a vaccine into their animal or child every single day - and anything other than immediate anaphylactic shock is deemed "unproven connection" by the CDC.  I have seen suits denied for kids balloned up and covered in boils following vaccination, and dogs who developed conditions within days that are consistently and systemically reported by well-known immunologists as vaccine consistent and still - "unproven connection" because in the end, what proof can you provide? An easy defense.

Countless doctors have spoken up to say it was vaccine induced. Many other countries have banned several vaccines still used in the U.S. knowing they are harmful and the U.K. has documented vaccine damage for decades starting with the vaccine induced small-pox outbreak there. Polio today is solely caused by the vaccine here - about 400 cases per year and dogs routinely suffer acute neurological damage from the neurological vaccines (distemper and rabies).  It is far too much to go into here but there is so much information out there if people want to review both sides and consider it all for themselves.

SC Trojans
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