big dog, with no courage

[schelmischekitty]

i have a question for all of you.  i've had big dogs for years, but i recently rescued my first great dane, who started out knee high (could pick him up with one hand and carry forever with no probs) and in 2 1/2 months is now waist high (almost 6 months old now).  i got him from a "breeder" in tennessee, who kept him outside, in a pen, and told me he had "never left the property" which is now causing tremendous problems as you can imagine.  he is very scared... of everything.  garbage cans, the tv, when you spray a cleaner, the vaccum, etc.  he has destroyed all my furniture from running, even though i have tried with all i have to hold him still.  he is still horribly underweight (wish i had pics, hope to soon, i lost my cam. charger) but has crushed my coffee table, eaten the door frames and pillows, etc from running, which has forced me to crate him whenever i leave the room to take a shower, or clean.  i've even had my hubby try to hold him with me and it just makes things worst.  it takes ATLEAST two people to load him into a car, and it's nearly impossible to get him to leave our home.  to get him to go on a walk, i have to bring my other 2 large breeds, which i don't mind, but i don't want him to be so dependent that he can't go anywhere by himself (because of vet visits, etc).  he urinates, and deficates every time something new happens, and even though i've tried to get him around new things, it just isn't happening.  he flips out so bad i'm scared he will break a leg, as he has already jumped off of our 8 ft deck to get away when we dropped a bag of charcoal, and limped for days. recently our neighbors even mentioned that they hear him screaming when they're coming DOWN the road, not even at our house yet, if i'm gone.  does anyone have any suggestions, and do any of you know of the aromatherapy plug ins work for dogs with anxiety problems?  thanks!

[sarnewfie]

Giant breeds go thru fear periods, it doesnt help the situation he came from either, besides the fear period, you have additional fear.
there is something called, rescue remedy, it is an herb liquid form, you can give him some of that to hopefully calm him a bit, works for some dogs not for others.
you are going to have to play him by ear.
i had a pup, that went thru a real funky fear period, in her best interest, i decided to take her out minimally, and work with her on simple things, around the house and yard and in the car.
i am glad i waited it out, becouse, she went to puppy class at 12 months of age, and fit right in, did real well and concentrated like she should, had i gone during her fear period, with her funky fears, i would not have made any strides forward, or, they would have been much more work.
If i were you i would try to work on things like the vaccume, etc....
do you have the TV on all the time?
it may help desensitize him to sounds and noise.
start out simple.

[schelmischekitty]

i leave the tv on 24/7 nowadays, trying to get him used to it, but anything like a person yelling all of a sudden, or a car door shutting, etc. sends him running across the house, trampling anything in his way.  i tried it with the vacuum too, turning it on, and trying to walk him up to it, but ended up on my butt with him running the other way, peeing the whole way.  had hubby try with me, but still didn't work, he managed to pull us both away from the vacuum until he was across the house.  i'll definitely try rescue remedy, i hope it works, b/c it's really upsetting to see him to scared all the time. 

[sarnewfie]

i would not bring him to the vacumme, rather, run it, use it, let him come to it on his own, it may take some time.
i would be willing to bet the pups were not held properly nor socialized properly
i would also be willing to bet the pups were left outside instead of being raised indoors, being exposed to every day life in the home.
it truly is sad, but, you can make great strides with lots of patience, the worst thing you can do, is force him or baby him, ignore the fearful behavior, and praise the heck outta him for advances towards the things he fears, encourage him when he takes a step towards something he is afraid of.
Desensitize him to the sounds he is fearful of.
meaning running the vacume every day, ignoring him, unless he shows interst, praise that interest.
a good series of books is the monks of new skete books, the newer editions.

[aggghgmom]

I sadly don't have much to add but wanted to know that I feel for you and your problems.  My Elkhound Margo (at the bridge) had some fear issues not nearly as bad as your pup, but she was afraid of stairs, recycle bins things like that.  Actually, my dog Harley is kind of afraid of walking in the dark so we just don't walk in the dark.

My only advise to you is to be patient and go on with your life; vacuuming, tv, etc and hopefully your dog will just start to get used to different sounds.  Make sure praise him when he is being good - when he is just hanging out being mellow stop by and pet him and tell him what good boy he is.

Best of luck to you, the pup  and your entire family

[mynameislola]

Patience, lots and lots of patience.  The only thing our Cody is afraid of is cars.  It took weeks before he would walk next to one that was parked.  Weeks more before he could go by it when the engine was running, or when it was started when he was close to it.  He is two now and I can finally get him through the door of a van by myself.

A fearful dog I trained a few years ago was desentisized with a collection of sounds put on a CD and played every day for hours.  We started with the sound almost off.  After about three years of various CDs, he still jumps when startled, but he doesn't run.

Best wishes. 

[schelmischekitty]

thanks for all of your replies!  this morning i tried to go about as usual, and just ignore him, but it didn't work.  i grabbed the vacuum and across the room he went, trying to climb the window and pulling the curtains/blinds down.  after that i put him outside, and he sat at the furthest corner of the yard (we have just under an acre) watching the house, and when i was done it took 10 minutes of calling him to get him back in the house.  i guess the main reason it confuses me is b/c my akita (came from same type of sitation, just not skinny) is the complete opposite, and it literally takes pulling him off the ground to make him move b/c he's so mellow and lazy.  sarnewfie, they were kept outside, he was infested with fleas so bad i didn't want to touch him until after he had a good bath, we're still working on that problem as he gave them to all my other dogs.  my hubby and i think the man of the family we got him from hit him, because my hubby can't do anything to him without him flipping out.  diesel is usually ok with females touching him, but males his eyes roll back in his head and he starts jumping around the second a guy touches him.  today i'm going to try to get the vacuum to run in a different room with the door shut, so he can hear it but not see it.  maybe that will work.  maybe i should try hiring a dog  behaviorist to come to my house?  does anyone have any thoughts on that, or tried it?  thanks!

[sarnewfie]

be very careful with the behaviorist you call, i would make sure the person is fabulous and check references, meaning the ones they give you plus ask around and find out who else went to him.
it sounds like you are dealing with a lot of issues.
i would try to have your husband do all the feeding so your dog can learn to hopefully trust him.
i would try to get your hubby to take him out to potty on leash, the more on leash stuff he can do with this dog, if he can even do it, the more bonding will happen.
I think a good thing is to start with less noisy items, say, maybe a hair dryer, leave that on in another room with door closed, run that for as long as you think you can, and do it as often as you can, than move to something a bit noisier, till you can build up to the vacumme cleaner.
if you do use the vacume and you still get that scared behavior, i would try to ask around and see what others in the same situation had done to bring them around.
i really think you are stuck in a situation with many contributing factors wich is going to make this very difficult for you, but, it can be done, it is just going to be a lot more work for you.
give that poor dog a huge hug from me, i hate hearing how some breeders raise pups, it makes me angry to think that people will house them outside or in a barn once they hit three to four weeks of age, it disgusts me.
they should be in that house, being cared for, and outside time is excersise time.

[schelmischekitty]

this afternoon is proving to be a good one.  i think maybe he is so tired, he can't really do his normal stuff.  it only took me n my hubby about 10 minutes to get him in the back of the truck, and he didn't pee in it today, only had gas horribly, is it normal for danes to get gass when they're upset?  i know my akita has scent gland problems that cause him to smell horrible when they get stopped up, do danes get this a lot too?  surprisingly enough, when i got home, he didn't jump out the door the second i opened it and almost hang himself like he usually does (i have to tie him to the cargo clips in the back of my explorer so he won't hurt himself).  i was truly amazed.  this morning when we put him in the truck it took about 20 minutes, the neighbors were all having a good time watching the struggle, for sure!  also got to clean without vacuuming with no problems, when he usually flips out horribly over dusting spray.  i think he is just getting really tired though.  my hubby can't bring him out on a leash yet, it doesn't matter how tight i put the collar, he always rears back and either flips onto his back and starts thrashing, or slips out and he doesn't know what to do, but definitely won't go to brandon.  he's doing better on the way from the door to the truck though, he freaks when i open the truck door and he does his typical eyes roll in the back of his head, and he may slip out his collar, but just stands there for me.  i'm considering getting a martingale (is that the name) collar, like they use on greyhounds, kind  of like a cloth choker, i don't know if that will make him more upset if it tightens though.  the breeder i got him from had no idea what she was doing, i could tell.  he was so skinny when i got him he had sores on every joint on his body, his knuckles, vertebrae, hips, shoulders, and even his tail bone, and one above his eye and another on his ear, from laying on the ground.  he looked really mangy, but we found out it was just sores from being skinny and laying down.  about a week after i got him, i put him outside and something scared him and he impaled himself on a tree branch, it was really nasty.  we didn't know if he'd make it, because it was about 3 inches deep and 2 to 2 1/2 fingers wide.  the only thing that saved him was the fact that it went along his ribs, not through.  the people must have known they were doing a bad job, i got him for only $75, but paid an extra $25 for them to hold him a day, and then the next week his sister was sold for $150.  i wish there was a way for the local law enforcement to make it mandatory for breeders to bring their puppies for check-ups at least every 3 weeks, or something!  it would have kept him from ending up like this, but hopefully his siblings got good homes, too.

[sarnewfie]

HE sure has had a ruff go, but, you can do it!
i would have hubby be the food man, i tell all my puppy people to have hubby share in feeding duties, becouse the man of the house usually complains that the pup will focus more on mom, of course they still may if mom is the main caretaker, thus the reason dad share in the duties, leash training is very very important tool to use, and one i want my people to do for nine months, becouse without the leash as an extension of you, and, it is a tool to shape behavior, you wont have the bond you would if you did do the leash stuff, by all means one step at a time, but the goal to be able to have him bond with your hubby would be a nice one to meet.
food is the window to any males soul.

i would try to have hubby work on holding the dish for him if he will eat out of the bowl while hubby holds, start out slow if he wont though, hubby prepare and hubby put bowl down for the dog.

[schelmischekitty]

you know i tried to get hubby to hold the food bowl, but he says it's pampering him too much!  i do it for all my dogs to feed, as a dominance tool, but hubby torments me for doing it to no end!  i'm not sure if diesel would do it or not, since we haven't tried it with hubby, but i know he eats better if i hold it opposed to just setting it up higher.  diesel is definitely a woman's dog, although he is like axle and "tolerates" hubby   with the leash training, do you think that keeping him leashed in the house would help getting him to stop flipping out when we go to walk outside?  maybe a halfway step?  i've noticed he lets my oldest son walk him on a leash in the house, but once we get outside i have a very hard time keeping him from going into reverse when he spooks.  it usually ends up with either me sitting on the ground or us across the yard.

[kathryn]

When I got Shiner he was terrified of men.  It wasn't anyone's fault though.  His mother and siblings came into rescue and they were fostered by two wonderful ladies.  I made Michael feed Shiner and made him sleep in another room with Shiner.  Now Shiner loves Michael maybe not as much as me but he isn't cowering under tables and behind me to get away from him.  He still hates his collar and will sulk and slink around when you put it on him and he hates to load into the truck unless Kaila or Cinder goes along on the ride.  Lots of treats and just letting him buck on the end of the leash has gotten him where he will load into the vehicles by himself.  So lots of patience and treats will work wonders.  Good luck with your boy.

[schelmischekitty]

diesel came from a couple in tn, when i got him at 12 wks old, they told me that he had never been off their property, not once, and lived in an outside dog pen, with his mom, when his dad lived inside (they didn't tell me that part, but i saw pics of his dad and he was an inside dog and they told me his mom raised them outside).  he had no shots, was really skinny.  when i went to drive home from picking him up (town by Chattanooga, tn, to my home right outside atlanta) he was so scared he pooped and peed in my truck, clawed up my dashboard, etc.  i stopped about 20 minutes out to let him potty and he was so malnourished he would squat to poop but had nothing in his system to poop, when he peed it was neon yellow/orange and you could smell it 10 foot away and made me gag and almost puke, also had sores on every joint in his body.  i couldn't get him to get back into my truck, he was so scared.  i finally put him in the back of the explorer with axle (in my pic)but i was very hesitant b/c axle  had never cared for big dogs, but i figured since he was a puppy it might work, because he wouldn't be so intimidated if the puppy started out small, and it did.  axle babied him a lot, which really helped, i guess him cleaning diesel reminded diesel of his mommy.  when i got him home my pack rushed him, and he went all over my floors, and after a while he got used to them checking on  him and just laid down, we went to the store and came back and thought he was dead b/c how still he was and so skinny he looked like that one dog off of animal precinct that had been starved to death (think it was a pit).  it was really apparent to every one he hadn't been taken care of.  all my neighbors were so shocked when i brought him home!  i can't even walk him yet (2 months later), because he looks so awful still i'm worried someone will call animal control on me (just in case, i told them about his situation when they came out on a false complaint that my dogs were vicious and running the streets going after little school kids getting of the school buses).  honestly, every one has told me it seems like someone hurt him b/c he reacts the same to every guy, and isn't bad with women.  i know some dogs are like this because they just aren't socialized, but there was some serious neglect in diesel's past.  the past few days we have really been making lead way, thank god!  all your luck must be working!  instead of doing like we have been doing, i have just tried not giving him the option to freak.  i put his leash over his nose so he can't get up on his back legs, and have hubby or my son do something that freaks him out.  aiden has gotten really good at turning the vacuum on!  this seems to work out best, because he is most comfortable with me, and afterwards whoever does the "scary" part gives him treats or loving.  this is working best, compared to just holding his leash and me doing it, or putting it in another room.  now, though, i can't get him to walk away from me, he's never more than 10 foot away, but from the sounds, it's really common for danes to do this.  still working on not destroying the house when i leave the room or go to the store though, i gave him another chance when i went to the grocery store, and he tried to eat my pot that i had in the sink...

p.s.-  i wanna make the satin balls (posted a question about them) for my other dogs, do you guys think he is going to be able to handle them, or if it is a good idea?  i don't want him to gain weight too fast, and make his joints get swelled up, etc.  vet doesn't have a lot of experience (but dr kay is so awesome with diesel!) with skinny danes, and he told me just to go at it slow, and give him nutrical, but i'm scared this will put weight on too fast!

[sarnewfie]

He does need nutricion first, i would go to the Great dane lady,
she is found at http://greatdanelady.com/
i would personally contact her, tell her everything, find out how to build him up naturally, of course he prolly has no muscle in the rear, he really needs it.
make sure to tell her about the other dogs etc....
it sounds like he is clingy like my newfs! i am the pied piper, esp when i go to the bathroom! ROTFL!

[schelmischekitty]

i just went to the site, and will be reading up the whole thing.  thanks!  i know the feeling about being the pied piper, axle has figured out of to grab the doorknobs and turn them.  he chewed them to where the knob is a rectangle, so now there is no getting away!  i can't even be like the one article in a magazine i read where the mom would hide stuff in the bathroom (candy, books, etc) just to get a break.  sigh!  oh well, at least we know we'll never be lonely!