Author Topic: Raw Question  (Read 12374 times)

Offline morph's mom

  • Big Paw Certified
  • **
  • Posts: 200
  • Morpheus
    • View Profile
Re: Raw Question
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2007, 01:30:36 pm »
I know what you mean.... This professor Jurgen Zentek that they keep referring to throughout this whole thing and who was also the keynote speaker and is the IAMS chair in clinical nutrition got his PHD by doing his his work on the "Mineral Metabolism of CATS"  So I dont really know what to think...  Where is Holly or Jenn when ya need them????
Morpheus Mastidane 1 yr

A. J. Keeshound  3 yr


 Dogs are really people with short legs in fur coats

"No one appreciates the very special genius of your conversation as the dog does." - Christopher Morley
 
"The average dog is a nicer person than the average person." - Andrew A. Rooney

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Raw Question
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2007, 01:35:37 pm »
I know what you mean.... This professor Jurgen Zentek that they keep referring to throughout this whole thing and who was also the keynote speaker and is the IAMS chair in clinical nutrition got his PHD by doing his his work on the "Mineral Metabolism of CATS"  So I dont really know what to think...  Where is Holly or Jenn when ya need them????

Yes really, we need the food experts :) I see Iams is on the low protein bandwagon too, according to their dry large breed food. :-\

Offline patrick

  • Paw-meister
  • **
  • Posts: 560
    • View Profile
    • Great Pyrenees
Re: Raw Question
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2007, 01:39:31 pm »
I am a Pyr breeder and I agree with high quality protein for a growing pup BUT feed only low fat (12%) and minimal grains.  A lot of calories come from the fat content and you want to reduce the calories but not the protein.  You get a lot fatter from eating fried chicken than from broiled fish analogy!!  I can't afford raw so I give a combination of kibble and meat

Offline morph's mom

  • Big Paw Certified
  • **
  • Posts: 200
  • Morpheus
    • View Profile
Re: Raw Question
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2007, 01:43:41 pm »
momma pyr have you seen this thread???  Holly posted it a while back but I still use it all the time...

http://www.bigpawsonly.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html
Morpheus Mastidane 1 yr

A. J. Keeshound  3 yr


 Dogs are really people with short legs in fur coats

"No one appreciates the very special genius of your conversation as the dog does." - Christopher Morley
 
"The average dog is a nicer person than the average person." - Andrew A. Rooney

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Raw Question
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2007, 01:47:21 pm »
I am a Pyr breeder and I agree with high quality protein for a growing pup BUT feed only low fat (12%) and minimal grains.  A lot of calories come from the fat content and you want to reduce the calories but not the protein.  You get a lot fatter from eating fried chicken than from broiled fish analogy!!  I can't afford raw so I give a combination of kibble and meat

High protein or high quality protein? What do you consider adequate protein to feed your Pyrs? 

I HAVE come across other people (breeders, owners) that each have their own opinion of feeding high or low protein and that seems to be what it comes down to- opinion, so I'm just curious.. and also very confused now, ha

Offline patrick

  • Paw-meister
  • **
  • Posts: 560
    • View Profile
    • Great Pyrenees
Re: Raw Question
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2007, 01:51:37 pm »
I like anywhere between 24-28% protein and I supplement the kibble with some meat.  I keep my puppies lean during growing and feed according to condition.  If someone is too thin I simply up the fat and carbohydrate content of their food by cooking my famous doggy stew.

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Raw Question
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2007, 01:52:38 pm »
Where is Holly or Jenn when ya need them????

Well, you know ... ask and ye shall receive ;)

Holly is at a conference, so the real food guru can't weigh in.  I'm a mere peon of dog nutritionaloci ty (with my very own language though, thank you very much!) but I will put in my two cents ...

I have never heard of the protein levels explained quite the way as they are in that study, with the focus on caloric intake rather than protein itself.  I read a lot of food info from The Great Dane Lady when researching food options.  She estimates that in the wild, dogs consume 50-55% protein, which isn't a problem, because it is digested and processed differently than the protein in kibble.  She suggests kibble (holistic or super premium) for most grown dogs be in the 20-30% range.  Most of your kibble protein recommendation s will back up the later figure, and many raw food websites will give you the same info on wild dog forage.

That makes sense to me.  Of course the kibble will be processed differently than actual meat.  That is why a lot of the grain free kibbles has much higher protein ratios than the average kibble.  They are much closer to a raw diet.  That being said, I don't think you can just throw caution to the wind and feed whatever you want.  With the higher protein levels in grain free foods and raw diets, you need to be certain not to overfeed.  With raw diets you still need to balance the nutritional intake and, I believe (Although many others have, and will, disagree with me) supplement. 

So, I think its a little trickier than what that study makes it out to be.  And no, I would never ever trust a study that IAMS put out.  Nor would I trust any one study on anything to be valid, or to be the be all end all of any type of information.

JMHO.

 

Yeah, that makes sense..as far as the difference in digestion and use.  Funny I was just reading the great dane lady's site and she seems to push/suggest Eagle Pack a lot. I read where she was going over that same IAMS study.

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Raw Question
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2007, 02:03:16 pm »
Yeah, that makes sense..as far as the difference in digestion and use.  Funny I was just reading the great dane lady's site and she seems to push/suggest Eagle Pack a lot. I read where she was going over that same IAMS study.

She does mention Eagle Pack a lot.  That is what her own dogs eat.  There are a lot more mentioned on her Better Dog Foods page.  The list has a lot of the same foods recommended by The Whole Dog Journal.

I meant to post this link earlier ... it explains a little more about the quality vs. quantity of protein thing.  If you haven't checked out The Doog Food Project, definitely browse through it.  Its a great site.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth

Oh yeah the dog food project, I remembering going through that when I did all sorts of research before I got my Eskie puppy, but I could use a review ;)

Offline sc.trojans

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 327
  • Gracie and Skylar
    • View Profile
    • Natural K9
Re: Raw Question
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2007, 05:56:12 am »
If the rule of thumb with our giants is to feed less than 23% protien, how does one do that on a raw diet? If the answer is 3/4 veggies 1/4 raw meat, how does that cut down on gas? Give my guys a raw carrot and they will blow you out of the house for two days! ???
Stella


To start, the common optimal protein levels you see advocated by kibble companies is on a DRY MATTER BASIS or DM - this cannot be directly compared to whole fresh raw foods, since raw meat is 60-70% water.  As a result, to get an apples to apples comparison, one must calculate the DM of food.  I often do this in the diet consultations I perform when folks feel they need to know how it compares, otherwise, I do not see it as relevant.

Dogs are carnivores and I have always seen them do best on high protein. As DobeDVM offered, and this is true, it is not the protein level that drives growth and orthopedic problems - it is calcium levels and overall calories.  A dog grows too fast because he is consuming too many calories, and OCD and HD have been shown in several studies to be linked to excessive calcium supplementatio n.

I find it frustrating that we have so many vets in america who have been out of school for so long and not maintaining continuing education. In their defense, vet school curriculum does not provide nutrition education - maybe one class - and if they have been in practice for a long time, they likely know little to nothing about nutrition except what they were told by Hills - who produces all of their text books and seminars (hence why so many vets stock Hills Prescription diets in their office).

If there is a vet saying that high protein is bad for the kidneys then shame on him.  There are scores of reports and articles by medical expects in this field who have long since shown that it is not the quantity of protein, but the quality of protein.  Kibble protein diets are usually removed in kidney disease - this is true, because this is not quality protein.  Fresh foods and high quality protein has helped scores of Bernese Mtn. Dogs with kidney disease that I have seen - and these diets were actually higher protein than their kibble diet. The quality of protein is what most impacts how hard the kidneys have to work.

Since Bernese Mtn Dogs have fragile immune systems and weak endocrine systems, many many are raw fed (or homecooked at least) and I find more raw fed in this breed than any of my others. Berners do better on fresh foods and high quality protein as a result and I believe are great evidence for a natural diet.  I have raised four dogs on a raw diet - my current Berner is 4th generation raw on both sides and has never eaten processed food. Her annual blood tests do not reveal overworked kidneys so far, and she is orthopedically sound with OFA certification.  There are differences with raw fed dogs - they are often higher energy - I believe vitality is an indicator of health however and a good thing - and have greater stamina.  Most raw feeders I encounter have trouble keeping weight on their dogs, because they do not realize how many calories their dogs require and underfeed calories - rather than overfeed.  I think this is easy to do on a natural diet.

Please do not get me wrong - because I do not mean to imply that concerns about this diet are not valid. I do believe it is more work than pouring food out of a bag, and it requires more work to know how to balance the diet and ensure you are providing all nutrients.  You CAN mess up a dog, and especially a growing puppy, if one does not know what to feed, and how much to feed it.  The bacteria is not a concern in my view if good judgment and appropriate steps are taken.  My dogs eat food out of a bowl every night and indoors, but they always eat their bones outside. Handling raw meat is the same whether cooking for ourselves or our dogs, so little impact there.

SC Trojans
with Gracie and Skylar