Author Topic: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?  (Read 7948 times)

Offline Gracie Belle

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Suzanne, my neighbor has a 6 month old (what we think is a berner/rotti mix) has a limp that the vet originally though was Panosteitis but know is not sure.  He's been prescribed metacam and cage rest for one month with mixed results.  It appears to get better and then the limp is back.  She works at a Vet Clinic and Vets who have had pets with this condition has said to her that this is not corresponding to the symptoms.  Does anyone have any experience or recommendation s that we can give her to try to help her and her vet diagnose and help this baby?  X-rays have been taken and nothing has been found yet.  HELP PLEASE...
Misty slave to:
Gracie Belle, 2 year English Mastiff
Rosco, 1 yr Toy German Shettweiler (designer mutt of course)and toy cause he's not Rotti or GSD size AT ALL.  Though they said he was a mix of the two..  Tonka, 3 year Great Dane
And last and most certainly NOT least, Linus 5 year old cat.

Offline patrick

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2007, 08:31:37 pm »
If on his front leg the other considerations would be elbow dysplasia and OCD of the shoulder.  But panosteitis comes and goes for several months so it could very well just be pano.  Commonly known as 'growing pains' the etiology is unknown and the dog will eventually recover without any permanent effects.  I do NOT crate rest for pano as they need continued mild exercise as part of the treatment program.  I also don't usually give anything for pain as a little pain will help the puppy be less active. Pain meds are reserved for severe pain days only. Adding glucosamine and vitamin C may help.  Sometimes this will come and go only for a few months but I once had a dog that had intermittent lameness until he was 18 months old.  He is 9 now and is just fine!

Offline RMSChloe

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2007, 03:53:11 am »
i wouldnt give cage rest either, that just leaves problems with stiffness and will just cause more problems with lamenss. i wouldnt supplament with vitamin C, (with anything involving growth pains, vitamin C WILL NOT help. it will only complicate)if its not pano, HOD has similar symptoms before getting worse. if the dog gets worse or starts to have any fevers, it very well could be HOD. the x rays might have just been taken too soon to see anything. how long has it been limping. our breeder had told us that limping was normal, just "growing pains" and not to worry about it. her limping turned out to be HOD. i know HOD is uncommon, but its possible. did you see the x rays? maybe if it goes on longer, or gets any worse, another set would be a good idea to see any progression. what i was saying before about vitamin C, is that you dont want to supplament anything like this with vitamins or anything like that, you dont want to promote more growth. vitamin C has been proven to complicate conditions like this, and is not recommended. watch for joint swelling, any temp changes, more lameness, changes in appitite, things like that. keep note of them... this is all i can really say right now..sorry
Shes not a dog... shes a Great Dane!

Offline RMSChloe

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2007, 03:55:49 am »
by the way, glucosamine wouldnt be a bad supplament, but at its age, it doesnt seem this would be much of a help unless the joints are dry. in the meantime MSM isnt bad to give them, it will help a little with the pain. i just wouldnt give anything to support growth.
Shes not a dog... shes a Great Dane!

Offline patrick

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2007, 02:11:06 pm »
Actually Vitamin C would do no harm- it is thought by some to help with vascular integrity and pano is thought by some to have congestion of the blood supply to the bone causing some of the symptoms.  May not help but won't hurt either  Has long been a remedy of some breeders and is used in human medicine as well for vascular inflammatory conditions.

Offline patrick

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2007, 04:06:31 pm »
Yes important to get a correct dx- HOD usually shows on xray, pano can show but may not be recognised by a general practice vet.  Often growth problems are caused by overweight puppies and high protein, hi calorie diets.  And in this case we really don't have much info on the dogs problem- where is the original poster?

Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy
Veterinary & Aquatic Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.

   
  Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy (HOD) is a bone disease that usually affects young, rapidly growing, large breed dogs. The disease has several names including skeletal scurvy, Moller-Barlow's disease, osteodystrophy II, and metaphyseal osteopathy. The disease produces severe lameness and pain and usually affects multiple limbs. The cause of the disease is currently unknown.
Who gets hypertrophic osteodystrophy?

HOD is a disease of young, rapidly growing dogs. It usually strikes puppies between the ages of 3 to 6 months. It is primarily a disease of large or giant breeds of dogs, although there can be exceptions to this rule. As with most of the young, large breed bone disorders, it affects males more commonly than females. There does not appear to be an increased incidence in any one large or giant breed. There does not appear to be a strong inherited or genetic link.

What are the symptoms of hypertrophic osteopathy?

Dogs that are stricken with HOD often show symptoms of mild to moderate painful swelling of the growth plates in the leg bones. It most commonly affects the ends of the radius, ulna, (long bones from the elbow to the wrist) and tibia (long bone from the knee to the hock). The dogs may show lameness and a reluctance to move. They may be lethargic and refuse to eat. A fever may come and go rising as high as 106 degrees. The disease usually affects both legs at the same time. The symptoms may wax and wane and resolve on their own or if the fever is very high for long periods and the bony involvement severe, the dogs may suffer permanent structural damage or even die.

How is hypertrophic osteodystrophy diagnosed?

Diagnosis is based on the history, symptoms, physical exam showing pain and swelling at the growth plates, and with x-rays. The x-rays will show a thin radiolucent (dark) line at the metaphysis (growth plate) in the end of the ulna, radius, or tibia. Bony inflammation and bone remodeling may also be seen at these sites. Occasionally, there may be involvement and changes in the skull and teeth. Dogs often have a fever and occasionally a high white blood cell count.

What is the treatment?

The treatment is generally supportive. Since this is a very painful condition anti-inflammatories and painkillers such as buffered aspirin or carprofen (Rimadyl) are given. (Do NOT give your cat aspirin unless prescribed by your veterinarian.) In addition, the animals are usually given a broad-spectrum antibiotic. Strict rest on a comfortable warm bed is recommended. Feeding a nutritious, highly palatable food will help to encourage some dogs to eat. In severe cases steroids may need to be given to control the pain, but because of the possibility of this being a bacterial disease their use may be contraindicate d due to their immunosuppress ive qualities. Vitamin C is often supplemented though its benefit may be questionable.

What causes it and how is it prevented?

The prevention lies in understanding what causes this disease. Unfortunately, there is currently no agreement on the cause of this disease. One possible cause may be a bacterial infection. The bony changes and high fever support this possibility. The difficulty in obtaining a bacterial culture from the site and the sometimes-poor response to antibiotic therapy may fuel the argument against this possible cause.

Another suspect in the disease is vitamin C. It has been shown that dogs with this disease show very similar symptoms and bony changes as people with scurvy (vitamin C deficiency). In addition, these dogs often have a lowered blood vitamin C level. However, dogs synthesize their own vitamin C and do not have a nutritional requirement for this vitamin. In several studies and in practice, feeding affected dogs high doses of vitamin C does not always alter or cure the disease. Some researchers therefore speculate that the low blood level of vitamin C may be a result of the disease, not the cause.

Another possible cause of the disease may be nutritional. It has been suggested that several bone diseases in young puppies are linked to an excess of protein and calories in the diet leading to the development of these problems. The studies have not been done that confirm this, though many owners of large and giant breed puppies are currently feeding a diet lower in fat and protein to try to encourage moderate steady growth instead of rapid growth. It is possible that this disease may be caused by several factors. At this time, however, we do not know the cause or how to prevent it. Hopefully future studies will give us more information on the cause and prevention of this painful and debilitating disease.

References and Further Reading


Bloomberg, M; Taylor, R; Dee, J. Canine Sports Medicine and Surgery. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 1998.

Brinker, W; Piermattei, DL; Flo, GL. Handbook of Small Animal Orthopedics and Fracture Treatment. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 1983.

Ettinger, S. Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 1989.
   
 
 


Offline RMSChloe

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2007, 04:48:34 pm »
my pup has HOD. the problem with it is that not many vets know much about it, you basically have to do your own research, unless you can get a good vet who has delt with it before. right now my pup has 2 vets at the same clinic who work on her, and have both delt with hit before. it can be a very short period of time, or it can last a while. she had the most severe case they had ever seen or heard of. she relapsed every week, and still is. she had 2 weeks of being able to get up and walk and not having severe fevers. her fevers tend to be about 104-106 when she gets them. she is just getting over a relapse right now that lasted 3 days, she hasent walked in 4 days, but i would suspect she will attempt to get up and walk late today or tomorrow. but this is why i said not to supplement with vitamin C, you dont know what the dog has yet, and C is not good to give a dog with HOD. there really is no reason to give any supplements untill you know what is exactly wrong. you dont want to worsen the problem!
Shes not a dog... shes a Great Dane!

Offline Gracie Belle

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2007, 11:58:32 pm »
You guys are so great.  She's going to have more x-rays taken so I will keep you all posted on this guy.  He's really wonderful by the way and he absolutely loves Gracie and Rosco.  He totally misses playing with Rosco but being that we don't know what the problem is we obviously don't want to run the risk of him injuring himself.  I'm going to give Suzanne all of this information.  Again, thank you all for your help.  One more thing.  We will be scheduling a photo shoot of Morty himself very soon so I'll be sure to post them as soon as I can. 
Misty slave to:
Gracie Belle, 2 year English Mastiff
Rosco, 1 yr Toy German Shettweiler (designer mutt of course)and toy cause he's not Rotti or GSD size AT ALL.  Though they said he was a mix of the two..  Tonka, 3 year Great Dane
And last and most certainly NOT least, Linus 5 year old cat.

Offline sc.trojans

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2007, 08:38:13 pm »


A limp in one leg is unfortunately not telling enough to be able to rule anything in or out.  It can be a lot of things in a 6 month old pup.  It is really important that they diagnose the exact source of the limp as a result - is it in the shoulder? The wrist? The elbow?  A really good orthopedic specialist can usually detect location based on gait analysis and examination.

I agree with others here that it doesn't sound like pano at all - pano is intermittent wandering lameness and usually not consistently in the same leg.

So the options are still to many:  it can be elbow dysplasia, a sprain or inflammation in a joint from injury, OCD, or even bicepital tendon bursitis in the shoulder (I saw a Berner last year with this).  Based on description, I think HOD is also unlikely but always possible.

The owner's best hope of getting answers and clear treatment is to x-ray the shoulder, elbows, and hips and submit them to the OFA for pre-liminary analysis. This is a cost effective option in leiu of having an orthopedic specialist and will tell more for the long term picture.

Good luck!
SC Trojans
with Gracie and Skylar

Offline Gracie Belle

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2007, 10:02:54 pm »
Hey everyone.  Morty is going in for new x-rays today so as soon as I hear something I'll let you know.  I'm keeping  my fingers crossed for him that it's nothing too serious and can be corrected or at the very least managed. 

We think the problem is in his shoulder based on how he favors the leg.  It looks like he throws the front right leg out and around.    Though that could be an elbow too I guess. I'm just no expert to lameness and where it looks like its coming from.  Also, he does not appear to be in pain other than the obvious limp (I guess that's the indication right there that it's uncomfortable) but he never cries or yelps or even acts uncomfortable when we touch his shoulder or elbow or wrist.  I'll keep you all posted.  Thank you St. Trojan for your input.  All of you really have been a big help in offering different thing to ask the vet about or to look into.  It's really appreciated.     
Misty slave to:
Gracie Belle, 2 year English Mastiff
Rosco, 1 yr Toy German Shettweiler (designer mutt of course)and toy cause he's not Rotti or GSD size AT ALL.  Though they said he was a mix of the two..  Tonka, 3 year Great Dane
And last and most certainly NOT least, Linus 5 year old cat.

Offline Gracie Belle

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HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?*UPDATE*
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2007, 05:09:39 pm »
So Morty had a ton of new X-rays taken yesterday and the diagnosis is Elbow Dysplasia.  So, now they know what the problem is they are now working on finding a good orthopedic Vet here in Houston and then find out what the next course of action will be.  They are also sending the x-rays to Gulf Coast Veterinary Specialists here in Houston as well.  That place is awesome as I had a dane who had a tough time with demodectic mange and the infection was too much for his regular vet to handle as the mange was only on his feet and in between his toes.  It was hard to keep any treatment in those areas.  Anyhow, long story short, we were referred to Dr. Beal who specialized in Dermatology at Gulf Coast and he was on the mend in no time.  That makes me very happy to hear he may be referred to such a awesome facility with Veterinary Specialists.  Things are looking up for Mister Morty and his human Suzanne.  I'm so excited that we finally know what is wrong and we can begin to correct it.  He's such a sweet stinkin dog.  Thank you all for your thoughts and input and Suzanne asked me to thank you too for her and Morty. I'll post pictures of this handsome dude very soon.
Misty slave to:
Gracie Belle, 2 year English Mastiff
Rosco, 1 yr Toy German Shettweiler (designer mutt of course)and toy cause he's not Rotti or GSD size AT ALL.  Though they said he was a mix of the two..  Tonka, 3 year Great Dane
And last and most certainly NOT least, Linus 5 year old cat.

Offline sc.trojans

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Re: HELP!!! Neighbors dog, Morty, has a limp. St Trojan. Got any ideas?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2007, 12:23:16 am »


I am happy to hear they identified the proper diagnosis - that is always the first step in effectively managing the problem.  I say manage because unfortunately there is not a fix or effective surgery for elbow dysplasia unless it is UAP and a "flap" exists that can simply be removed.  If it is joint incongruity, then there is nothing that can be done about the joint itself and the owner will need to focus on joint supplements, conservative support (such as physical therapy, acupuncture etc.) and manage his exercise load over time.

A promising new option for elbow dysplasia (and other joint and ligament injuries) but is still too new at this point is stem cell injections.  Vetstem is offering this procedure for dogs now, after years of successful use in racehorses.  As effective as it is for horses, it is still unproven in dogs, but I believe time will yield great results and this may be a huge non-surgical option for serious issues such as torn cruciates and elbow dysplasia. I hope we see this as a viable option within the next year or two.

In the meantime, there is much that can be done to help ensure a good quality of life.  The owner should get a certification on how severe the dysplasia is and exactly what type:  FCP? UAP? General Incongruity? as this will determine course of action as well....

Good luck!
SC Trojans
with Gracie and Skylar