Author Topic: How about compulsory spay/neuter?  (Read 15152 times)

cricket36580

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How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« on: December 27, 2005, 12:08:29 am »
Ok...hear me out.  With all of the drama over Baloo, dh and I have been discussing solutions to the "problem".  Why isn't there a compulsory spay/neuter program?  With compulsory microchipping. ..and then if you want to breed, then you are heavily screened and then you have to apply for a license.  It would, if not eliminate, severly reduce the number of animals going through shelters.  And the crap about freedom and choice is just crap.  Of course, I already believe that you should apply for a license to have a baby too...and you have to go through mandatory parenting classes.  But that's another story.  It wouldn't be any more difficult to enforce than rabies which is already compulsory...

Ok, let me hear the arguments against this idea....

Offline newflvr

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2005, 01:05:54 am »
You are not going to get a single argument from me....sorry! 

And I agree!  Humans should be have the same limitations as well!

Offline ZooCrew

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2005, 02:43:43 am »
Hey, I'm all for it.  I think there should be strict breeding licenses and statutes set up to protect the animals from the less savory people with poor intentions.  For that matter, animal law has a long way to go in many aspects.

Offline iluvbigdogz

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2005, 08:54:30 am »
People are so very ignorant about "BREEDING". I just got a 1year old english mastiff. She is not spayed. I will be getting her spayed within the next month. The people I got her from were going to breed her but decided they did not have the time. OK this dog has no papers and they really don't know her linage. Next situation, my brother in law. He has a 4 year old bullmastiff. He found out I was getting this dog and immediatly wanted to breed her with his dog. I told him I would never do that and does he realize they would be mutts? He said but the dogs are so good and would have great pups. His brother got a female bully and they have been putting them together and so far so good (nothing). It makes me so angry to hear him talk like that.  I have a spay/neuter magnet on the back of my car and a spay/neuter license plate. Does he not get it. I believe as sad as it is you could talk till you are blue in the face and these people will never get it. Just my 2 cents. I don't want to hurt any feelings.

SA_horses

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2005, 09:05:41 am »
The violation of our freedom argument is a good one, IMO.  Look at it this way: does the animal belong to you or to the government?  If the animal belongs to you, then the government has no right to control it except as is necessary for the common good.   Otherwise, you should be able to do whatever you want with it.

Examples of things necessary for the common good: control of diseases that are transmissable to people, such as rabies; removal/killing of animals destructive to others' property, such as livestock, after repeated offenses;  killing of animals that have seriously injured or killed a person, unless the animal was defending another person, its owner's property, or itself against aggression; and removal of animals being abused, together with punishment of the abuser (only because this is said to have a connection to abuse of people).

Microchipping is also a violation of freedom - religious freedom in this case.  The Amish, Mennonites, and people with similar religious beliefs would be unable to have dogs, and they need them to continue in their way of life.  Additionally, many other people think that microchipping is wrong - I, for one, think it is wrong and will never knowingly own a microchipped animal.

As far as people... I won't go there.

Sofia

Offline Good Hope

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2005, 09:27:36 am »
I agree with my daughter, except..... there must be laws governing abuse and neglect of animals. Too often it has been shown that people who abuse animals, esp, as children, go on to abuse other humans. These laws must be tough as nails for abuse. In the same vein, people who fall on tough times need to be able to seek emergency assistance to provide basic care for their pets. But this MUST come from the private sector. NO GOVERNMENT FOOD STAMPS FOR PETS!

Deena

cricket36580

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2005, 11:04:19 am »
By 2009 you will be required to chip every living thing on your property that isn't human so that dog won't hunt. That's already on the books.  It was supposed to be rolled out in 06 but the funding got cut.  Can you imagine chipping day-old chicks that you plan to eat in 6 wks?  Well, that's what we have here now.  Not only will everything be chipped, but they will also be fitted with GPS locators so Big Brother can see where they ar via satellite.  Welcome to wonderful world of NAIS....
  So, if we are going to go through all of this pain and agony, why not take it a step further and actually use it for some good?

If you don't want govt interference, you had better get pro-active.  All of us.  Cause it's coming and they're sneaking it in through the back door.

Offline Good Hope

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2005, 12:02:40 pm »
Cricket,

We are. We tried to bring it to the attention of thgis board before, but most do not see it as a problem. We do and will everything we can to stop it. I thought chicks, ducks, and were supposed to get GPS radio bands for their legs? I know goats will get chipped in the tail, etc. Just stupid, and to think this is one thing our taxes will pay for.

Deena

Offline Good Hope

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2005, 12:06:21 pm »
BTW, my father-in-law is a Neonatologist. They are also planning on chipping new born babies as well, eventually everyone.

cricket36580

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2005, 01:23:23 pm »
Just kind of makes you sick to your stomach, huh?  NAIS scares me almost senseless.  I too am doing what I can to get the word out and do what I can to stop it.

cricket36580

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2005, 02:39:57 pm »
Supposedly for disease control...for instances like the avian flu...

Offline Anky

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2005, 02:47:43 pm »
OK, I'm just going to give my thoughts and opinions on the matter.  First off, my daddy is a gun toting, government loathing, loony (Love him as I do).  He has grenades in the house for the day that Big Brother comes a knocking.  I am well versed in conspiracy theory. 

That being said I'm not too concerned about mandatory microchipping coming to fruition, animals or humans, especially being implemented in 3 years.  There are several reasons for this.  One, the massive scale!  Two, the cost.  Three, the follow up/enforcement.  And, when dealing with tracing ect on humans, the compromise of anything man made, especially when organics work just as well. 

Massive Scale:
Can you even CONTEMPLATE, how many people live in America?  Yeah, we all can spit out numbers but we can't comprehend how big that number really is.  I live in New Hampshire, which is in a group of small states called New England.  I'm staggered by the amount of people who live here, and in reality, all of New England could fit in Kansas!  They say that for all the dogs in the US to have homes each and every person (Babies included) would have to have 14 dogs!  So take the incomprehensib le number of people who live here, multiply that by 14 and you have JUST the amount of dogs that have to be chipped.  That's not including the livestock you guys are talking about, which we consume constantly.  It's just too big!

Cost:
I know to get Araby and Hobo chipped and registered (Nee is chipped and registered to his breeder) it was about $120 for both.  I'm sure the government would get a bulk discount and all, but the cost just to PERFORM the inital chipping, not to mention the resources needed for follow up is astronomical.  Yeah I know this is the government who spent $2,000 on a friggin toilet seat.  But a crapper cushion is much more forgivable than a privacy invasion act.

Follow Up/Enforcement:
Impossible.  They can't even enforce dog licensing laws they already have!  I know this first hand as Matt is immensely tarded, and didn't license Araby and Hobo for SIX MONTHS after they were due.  We got letters informing us of late fees (Which he hid so I wouldn't get mad), but never had anyone call us, show up to the door, threaten to take the dogs away, anything.  Sanity isn't even licensed yet (Because I'm waiting for him to get fixed, not only because of the initial $3.50 savings, but because they charge an aggression fee for every month the dog isn't fixed and it goes down in the books that they're an aggressive dog because they're in tact) and you know what?  No one has done anything!  When he gets his rabies done, they ship a copy of the certificate to the town hall, so the town knows he's there!  But they haven't done anything!  If they don't have the time/manpower to follow up on simplistic procedures like this, how the **** are they going to do something as intensive as a shipping/tracking program?

With regards to tracking in humans:
I was talking to a friend who was telling me about how in Carolina they've been trying to do a mandatory fingerprinting, DNA sample on all newborns because of the amounts of kidnappings that go on in the states.  They haven't been able to implement it in ONE state, because of the uproar.  If they can't do something as simple and inobtrusive in one state I can't imagine them trying to to do something more complicated and intrusive over the whole country, especially when you consider the more liberal states! 

I'm not one who likes to predict the future.  50 years ago they thought by now we'd be tooling around in flying cars and taking vacations to the moon.  All we've done is create a scooter that saves you the effort of walking a few blocks.  However, I do think eventually, I don't know how far down the road, but eventually, we will be more integrated into a "Network" for lack of a better term.  We already partially are, with everything being electronic and such, ie: Debit cards ect.  However I do NOT think that Microchipping will play a factor in this.  Reason being, we all are born with ready made unique identifiers;fnger prints, retinas, and the like.  These are things that can't be altered (Without severe pain and complications). 

A friend of mine went to a college with brilliant people.  One of his friends is a hacker.  Hecan take digital sereal numbers and alter them.  For one of his classes he took a microchipped cat, and altered the numbers it read so when looked up in the registration it was different breeds of dogs in different locations.  Every step we take in technology there is someone figuring out how to use it to their advantage.  The less man made implements in an equation, the fewer ways it can go wrong.  We all know of dogs with microchips that migrated, or just didn't read.  I mean God, if they did choose to microchip people against their will, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to find someone who'll remove it!

This all being said, I understand your concerns.  I really do.  I just don't think that this is something to be concerned about.
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Offline VdogLover

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2005, 02:51:28 pm »
By 2009 you will be required to chip every living thing on your property that isn't human>>>>>>>>>>>

Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought it was only livestock that this law applies to? If not, can you please supply a link to the bill for us all to read?

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2005, 02:58:49 pm »
By 2009 you will be required to chip every living thing on your property that isn't human so that dog won't hunt. That's already on the books.  It was supposed to be rolled out in 06 but the funding got cut.  Can you imagine chipping day-old chicks that you plan to eat in 6 wks?  Well, that's what we have here now.  Not only will everything be chipped, but they will also be fitted with GPS locators so Big Brother can see where they ar via satellite.  Welcome to wonderful world of NAIS....
  So, if we are going to go through all of this pain and agony, why not take it a step further and actually use it for some good?

If you don't want govt interference, you had better get pro-active.  All of us.  Cause it's coming and they're sneaking it in through the back door.

Maybe I am very tired or something and missing the point ... but cricket aren't you the one who started this topic to push for the government to say who can and who cannot breed?
What people need to realize is either you support  big brother or you don't. Please do not think you can support it only for your agenda and not have a trickle down effect.

SA_horses

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2005, 03:28:49 pm »
Actually, yes, this system only applies to certain livestock species (but it does includes horses).  Rabbits, dogs, and cats are not included.  I think I posted something different earlier, but that was wrong.  I do not think that pet birds (parrots and such - if you keep a pet chicken like some people it still counts as livestock), ferrets, or the more exotic pets are included either.  Also, it does not necessarily involve microchipping, but it is being pushed as the method of choice for some animals, including horses and goats.  Other species have different recommendation s; the working group for cattle, for example, is recommending the use of radio frequency identification in ear tags.  However, it still includes electronic technology, which would go against the religious beliefs of the Amish.  These are the things of which I am reasonably certain from reading the available material on government websites about NAIS.

I have joined the forum at http://www.stopanimalid.org/  Some information is available there, and there are links to official government websites.  It is a good place to go if you do not like to idea of a National Animal Identification System (NAIS).  The forum has discussions of several different aspects, with links to pertinent information backing up the posts, and there is also some information on the website.  (The "What is NAIS" page has footnotes that haven't been added yet.)

The scariest thing is that, to my knowledge, there is no bill!!!  :o  Some have been introduced into Congress, but nothing has actually been passed.  Still, people are going ahead with the program.  Cricket, if you know the number of the bill that was passed, I would like to know it; I haven't heard of it yet.  There are too many rumors that circulate on the internet to accept information lightly - although I made that mistake just the other day by looking at an article and drawing conclusions from it without reading the actual document.  (It concerns the Bioterrorism Act mentioned on the above forum...there are exemptions that the article does not mention.)

Ang, it is my understanding that the technology is there to implement this program, BUT that it will be difficult and expensive.  It is my opinion that it will be implemented but poorly enforced initially.  In some places it will probably be enforced better than others.  Many people will not comply, and this will be used as an excuse to fine or arrest people that the government decides it doesn't want around - perhaps because they are too independent.  However, with time, people will just accept the program as a matter of course and comply.  (Note that this is my opinion, except about the technology.  That comes from the posts of several other people on a different forum, so it is not certain and is only "my understanding."  :))

VdogLover, I agree about big government; we cannot have our cake and eat it too.  However, I think Cricket was simply saying that might as well use a bad thing (NAIS) for something good (prevention of pet overpopulation).  While I disagree with that, it appears from her posts that she would rather not have animal ID and tracking at all.

Sofia