Author Topic: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds  (Read 25708 times)

Offline newflvr

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2006, 05:57:47 pm »
I gotta agree with you!!!  If you are going to rant this is a great subject to rant about!  I was appalled when I found out that Josh, that gorgeous Newf who won Westminster is so dysplastic that he couldn't be certified...an d all the puppies that he's sired all have horribly deformed hips.  And that's the best the AKC could find to promote?  I don't know about the health of the other breeds, but why can't they insist on having CERTIFIED dogs to show at these shows?  The implication is that these are BREEDING dogs (they have to be intact to show, right???) so shouldn't their health be certified?  Shouldn't the MOST healthy as well as the best looking of the breed win??

Offline NoDogNow

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2006, 06:28:49 pm »
See, there's a reason not to snip Chester unti he's old enoough to certify all his health issues. 

Puppies may need his genes! Imagine, if you will, this choice:

A healthy, happy, fully health certified Chester vs. Award winning, but dysplatic Joe Dog

Any responsible breeder SHOULD want The Chest, shouldn't he/she?!

That's why I think AKC is SO horrible and irresponsible.  They promote the concept of "champion" over the concept of "health", when the latter should be a prerequisite for attaining the former! 

And they don't do a blessed thing about evil pet stores that lock babies in glass houses where nasty spoiled children knock on the glass where the tag says "AKC" on every card. 

To quote Snoopy:  "My teeth itch.  I want to bite somebody."

Really, really, REALLY hard.



Sheryl, Dogless and sad

Offline newflvr

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2006, 07:03:39 pm »
I'll be part of your pack!  GRRRRRR!

GR8DAME

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2006, 09:02:15 pm »
Despite the fact that you chose to attack my post I have stated my opinion, stand by it as such, and simply agree to disagree.
Stella

Offline newflvr

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2006, 10:13:18 pm »
I think we are all saying basically the same thing.  The AKC presents itself as an authority and by establishing standards for each breed, implies that it will enforce the standards. That would, logically, imply that health issues would be part of the standards, when in fact, the health is not addressed in any way.

Education should be first and foremost and it doesn't seem to be except the broadest sense. (get your dog checked by a vet regularly...so rt of education)  There is nothing about how to find good breeders, what to look for when you are looking at a puppy or an adult dog.  It is JUST a registry.

I wish they were more proactive in education but there does not seem to be any movement in that direction.  I have learned more in the time on this site than I have ever learned from an AKC website, TV show or dog show.  People are more patient explaining the fine points of dog-loving than anybody I've met at a dog show.  That said, everybody really is too busy to do much education at a dog show!!!  I wish there was a class that the AKC would sponsor in elementary school about how to take care of a dog properly...I would think that would be invaluable in educating the next generation. 

....imho...... ;)

Offline Anky

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2006, 12:13:09 am »
If they educated they'd lose money.  Simple as that.  No reason to get all dramatized about it.

If I had to chose an AKC dog or an UKC I'd choose UKC.  If I had to choose between AKC and a scam registry I'd choose AKC/
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Offline bernerbuddy

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2006, 11:22:20 am »
First, I'd like to thank everyone for your posts.  We of course knew that our decision to pursue backyard breeding of a 75% Berner would be controversial and I respect your opinions, and am particularly impressed with the respectfulness and intelligence of most of the posts.  Thanks.

1) Here is a picture of two of the girls from the Berner/Chow/Shepherd litter.  There were seven in the litter, one male and six females; five of the seven had markings and coloration closer to the father (Berner), two closer to the mother.  This pic is of two sisters, the chow-colored one is our Pye.

2) I do think we can agree that among AKC-certified breeders of all purebred dogs including Berners, there are good ones and  bad ones.  Many of us, me included, are neither "against" the breeding of purebreds nor the adoption of mixed breeds.  Where we understand things differently involves my statement that many of the specific problems that plague particular breeds came out of breeding practices that required drawing from in some cases very small gene pools for the sake of breed purity.  It is certainly true that there are responsible breeders who try to select for good hips and eyes, and with any sensible person I would recommend such breeders over bad ones if you want a dog with better chances of avoiding these problems.  But what is little discussed and understood is that these very practices--OFA certification is a perfect example--have had the general effect of severely shrinking an already in-bred gene pool even more. 

3) So why the resistance to producing a litter of wonderful pets with many of the characteristic s I cherish in the Berners and with a greater chance of avoiding their health problems?  Of course there is no guarantee of the future health of any litter, but can it seriously be challenged that such dogs are more likely to avoid those health problems?  Specific research on particular mixes is obviously lacking.  On the other hand, in a case such as histiocytosis, I don't know why one poster assumes that because there is a gene (even if it is spelled in capital letters!) for it, it can be passed on just as easily.  Virtually limited as this particular disease is to two breeds, isn't it likely the gene is recessive?  Isn't it probable it is passed on and on and on precisely because of the breeding practices we are talking about? 

4) I've hit a nerve because people have strong opinions about purebreds and mongrels.  That's fine.  I have thought about having a blog on this topic because of all the misunderstandi ngs that are out there about the subject.  But what I really don't understand is why people translate these feelings into the ideology that it is a "bad idea" or even morally "wrong" for me to have these beautiful pets. 

Not to unleash another firestorm!  I have appreciated your posts!  Oh, and

5) Anybody with a nice Berner stud want him to meet Pye?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 11:26:36 am by bernerbuddy »

Offline Kermit

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2006, 11:34:34 am »
Resistance from me comes from knowing how many BEAUTIFUL dogs are down at the local shelter needing homes, and countless animals in foster homes waiting to be adopted!!
Please go to your local shelter and see for yourself. And take a look on Petfinder.com. Do you REALLY think the world needs more dogs??? ???

If you do that and understand fully just how many unwanted dogs there are, and you still think you want to breed this litter, then none of us here are going to get through to you in any way from any angle. :'(

Offline bernerbuddy

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2006, 12:03:53 pm »
In quick reply to the last post--this is precisely the discussion I wanted to avoid in this forum.  Perhaps you are among the minority of people who is against any dog breeding as long as there are dogs to be adopted.  If you are not, then what you mean is I have the "right" to breed a purebred Bernese mountain dog, but not a hybrid.  You believe in limiting the rights of reproduction to purebred dogs as long as there are any dogs in any shelters.

I respectfully disagree with this position.  Full disclosure: I am a professional historian who has done work on the intellectual history of eugenics.  While dog breeding is a long-standing cultural practice on more than one continent, the hsitory of the establishment of the UKC and AKC is closely and directly related to the eugenics movement, and so is the moralist population politics that insists on the sterilization of all "impure" animals.  I do respect your decision to get your dog from a shelter, and have done so myself; I have also gotten a dog from an AKC-registered breeder, and from a backyard hybrid-breeder.  I do somewhat resent the implication that I need to be "gotten through to," in your words, but presumably would not if I got a dog from a breeder or a pound.  No one's likely to get through to anyone in these matters of deeply ingrained ideology, but I would settle if some posters would rethink their insistence that there is something immoral about not restricting the reproduction of a beautiful and beloved animal because she is not 'pure.' 

And so here's another pic of the horrible little creature--she was the product of another litter that was both 'illegitimate' and planned.  How I thank my stars every day! 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 12:06:23 pm by bernerbuddy »

Offline newflvr

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2006, 12:43:39 pm »
I'm going to refrain from answering the points you've brought up because it seems we all have our walls that we are not willing to cross.  Your philosphy is fine if all the pups have homes.  I think that is all everyone is trying to say.  Please make sure there are enough people out there who want your 'hybrids' so that none have to go to the humane society.  Please be willing to take them back if the adoptions fall through.  It's just about taking responsibility for the lives you are bringing in to the world.

Good luck

Offline Kermit

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2006, 12:51:29 pm »
I think breeding dogs of any kind needs to be restricted. It has gotten way out of hand. I wouldn't encourage you to breed dogs even if they were purebred. I am involved in canine rescue and I see firsthand what a huge problem there is, and yes I wish that people would give the dog breeding a BIG BREAK. It is not fun and games, it is not "oh let's breed a cute litter of pups it'll be fun". It is LIFE. And so much of that life is being wasted. The leading cause of death in dogs is euthanasia. Don't you care?

"And so here's another pic of the horrible little creature"
Give me a break.

You knew you were going to be met with resistance when you posted. For all I know you posted to get an argument.

Personally, I just don't see how anyone who cared about dog overpopulation could breed ANY litter of puppies. And that is my opinion. I probably shouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place, because it seems that no matter how many homeless dogs I try to help out, there will always be someone down the street breeding another litter. :'( :'( :'(

Offline Kermit

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2006, 02:20:26 pm »
Time to step back everyone.

As we all know, each member of this board has strong feelings on both sides of this discussion.  All that is building in this thread is tempers and emotions.  That is not what BPO is about.

Let's see pics of puppies. Let's talk about our family members that we have rescued, purchased or bred.  Let's ask advice about a health issue.  Let's not condemn each other for what we feel.

Tina



I'm sorry. It is true I am overly emotional right now with dog issues.  :(

Kiahpyr

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2006, 03:02:24 pm »
If you do breed I am begging to make sure ALL of the puppies have homes and be responsible enough to take them back. The shelter's are overflowing and no one should add to that. I have a purebred great pyrenees and a mixed puppy I rescued from a shelter. I love them both dearly. They are both young yet that health problems are unknown. Just be reponsible!

GR8DAME

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2006, 03:12:48 pm »
I agree with Tina, specifically, it is time for me to take a giant step back. But before I go...
Bernerbuddy, you may have noticed that we have very few berner parents here, and most of our dogs(pure bred or not) are nuetered or spayed. You may have more success posting your request for a proud Papa on a berner specific site. If you do, let us know, as I'd love to watch the show.
Stepping back now...
Stella

Offline NoDogNow

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Re: Bernese Mountain Chowpherds
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2006, 04:40:45 pm »
I am less bitey today than I was yesterday. 

Sorry if I nipped really hard, Stella. The sight of an AKC sign in a pet store cage does it to me every single time.  It's like putting a match to powder, and I just explode.

Bernerbuddy, let me say again what I said before: 

I'm not at all in favor of crossbreeding anything, unless you've got 5 or 10 generations of clear medical reports on all sides before you start your first F1 generation.

The thing about this particular breeding that makes me stand up and say, "WAAAIIITTT a minute there, cowboy" is that you don't seem have a detailed picture of what genetics you're looking at potential mixing.  I think that Julie's point about multi-gene issues is well taken.  Unless you've looked really extensive into the health and genetics of your potential mix dogs, you just don't know exactly what genes may be coming into play. 

That's my concern.  Because you ARE breeding out of three limited gene pools, and it doesn't seem like you have a long enough history on the dogs you're considering crossing to know what recessives are be out there hiding in Pye's sibling pools, just waiting to combine with the recessives of the other gene pool and turn into a genetic bomb.

Please.  If you're absolutely set on this, at least do some more research into at LEAST the sibs of your pair??  Pretty please??

I'll return to biting pet store people now.

Sheryl, Dogless and sad