Big Paws Only Dog Forums
BPO Food Forum => Food Discussion & Information => : gr8dame April 06, 2007, 01:50:12 AM
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I am not trying to start a big controversy,am not "anti-raw", have no moral objection to animals as a food source and am not asking anyone to defend any of their actions, I am just trying to understand something. I don't feed raw because with three big dogs I don't think I can afford it on a regualr basis, and Mr Picky Merlin will not eat raw meat the few occasions that I have tossed a scrap to the crew. But my question is this:
If the rule of thumb with our giants is to feed less than 23% protien, how does one do that on a raw diet? If the answer is 3/4 veggies 1/4 raw meat, how does that cut down on gas? Give my guys a raw carrot and they will blow you out of the house for two days! ???
Stella
lol, you poor thing. I wonder the same thing as far as protein goes, and I've also heard that price is is going to be pretty comparable with the amount you need to buy but I don't know. My breeder told me there is no way to cut food costs with large dogs ha. I looked into BARF a bit when I had my Eskie and I didn't have the time to do it (properly)then and I surely don't now. Someone else on another board said she fed 'raw' and all she fed her Pyr was chicken (bags of frozen from walmart)and added brewers yeast and garlic. That is super easy but not at all balanced. So for now, I'm sticking with kibble.
Fortunately my dogs don't have gas issues, even when their bellies flare up. Maybe we'll both get some answers. There is SO much to read about it.
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Thanks for the reply, Kristina.
It sounds like we are in the same situation, feeding-wise. I feed kibble because it is the easiest for me right now, and I also have half a grasp on what I am doing. Raw may be healthier in the long run, but there is an overwhelming amount of information to wade thru and you are never quite sure what is fact and what is opinion. I am afraid in my ignorance I may do more harm than good. It is such a hot button for some folks that you are half afraid to ask!
Stella
Yea you are right, I've found out it's a pretty heated debate. :-X I like the idea of giving them variety instead of the same thing day in and day out which is one reason I like the idea of doing raw. So with Sura, I would give her chicken and maybe an egg for a meal, or I'd add in cottage cheese or some pasta to her kibble, I know veggies aren't digestable unless broken down.. but that's what I did with her and I also added a supplement. She had raw beef at times and marrow bones and we also made our own jerky treats for her. I got slammed on another board for mixing anything raw with kibble, because I guess that is asking to wreak havoc on their system, but that wasn't what I had read. Maybe Sura had an iron stomach but she sure was a healthy dog, just a little white, glowing fluffball, hahaha.
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Dogs on BARF get much more then 23% of protein. Dogs do need much more then 23% of it. My dog was on raw for more then 4 months and than she started to refuse turkey, then chicken, then pork and now I do 50/50. She loves grain free kibble which has 42% of protein and I give her some organs and meat to fulfill her diet with some really good stuff. She is a growing puppy and she grows nice and slow.
I have to tell you something though. I am from Russia and I have never seen dogs with so many health issues back there like it is here. We didn't know what the "kibble" was and fed our dogs with homemade food and table scraps. We didn't think about "balance" and the vets are the least visited people in the county!
How many of us, people, count the amount of protein and calcium and .....you name it we get from the diet. All we know that fast food (highly processed), canned and frozen goodies are NOT as good as homemade meals. On the other hand, many people believe that raw meats and table scraps will kill their dogs.
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Also, I had mentioned on another post about the bone issue. Some places you read to feed with bones, some say don't. My mom went and learned all about the raw thing and started her dog on that, he LOVED it of course but he eventually started to have blood in his stools so she stopped and went back to kibble. I have read some sources they have said the bones can cause some internal bleeding so I guess that is what happened. :( Some dogs must never have issues with it. It's confusing.
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Dogs on BARF get much more then 23% of protein. Dogs do need much more then 23% of it. My dog was on raw for more then 4 months and than she started to refuse turkey, then chicken, then pork and now I do 50/50. She loves grain free kibble which has 42% of protein and I give her some organs and meat to fulfill her diet with some really good stuff. She is a growing puppy and she grows nice and slow.
I have to tell you something though. I am from Russia and I have never seen dogs with so many health issues back there like it is here. We didn't know what the "kibble" was and fed our dogs with homemade food and table scraps. We didn't think about "balance" and the vets are the least visited people in the county!
How many of us, people, count the amount of protein and calcium and .....you name it we get from the diet. All we know that fast food (highly processed), canned and frozen goodies are NOT as good as homemade meals. On the other hand, many people believe that raw meats and table scraps will kill their dogs.
I guess I'm surprised that she is growing so slowly while consuming so much protein! It's supposed to be the complete opposite. :-\
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I am glad I'm not the only one confused about this. I have been thinking about changing everyone over from kibble, even before the recall, but it seems like it will be really expensive and time consuming. Also, I know this is the dumbest question ever but, is all the food really raw- like no cooking at all for anyhting? If so, how do you feed? I am picturing raw chicken and salmonella infesting the house. Thanks.
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I am glad I'm not the only one confused about this. I have been thinking about changing everyone over from kibble, even before the recall, but it seems like it will be really expensive and time consuming. Also, I know this is the dumbest question ever but, is all the food really raw- like no cooking at all for anyhting? If so, how do you feed? I am picturing raw chicken and salmonella infesting the house. Thanks.
Yeah, raw is raw. That's another issue I have with it. You just have to be careful how and where you feed, be sure to disinfect etc. It was too much for me to do all the time and too paranoid since I would have to clean so much, including the sink, her bowl. I only fed her outside because of it and then I wouldn't want her licking me either, eww. I know people that do it on a regular basis, it comes easy for and I guess they don't have problems but I'm a clean freak firstly (so even when I clean, I still don't think it's clean enough) and especially with little ones in the house, it just makes me paranoid.
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Also, I had mentioned on another post about the bone issue. Some places you read to feed with bones, some say don't. My mom went and learned all about the raw thing and started her dog on that, he LOVED it of course but he eventually started to have blood in his stools so she stopped and went back to kibble. I have read some sources they have said the bones can cause some internal bleeding so I guess that is what happened. :( Some dogs must never have issues with it. It's confusing.
Was your mom feeding raw bones only? There really should be a problem with the bones, if they are raw. Raw bones are really spongey, so they break down pretty much like the meat. That is sorta confusing.
Binky -- to cut down on the bacteria in the house, I generally fed in the crates, or an area easy to wipe down. Then after the meal was over, I'd wipe the area clean, and spray with that Clorox all surface kitchen cleaner. Not the bleach kind, but the kind that says its safe for food prep. areas. I used to think it was a lot to clean, but after dealing this past month with Psycho-Kiden-The-Angry-Pee-Machine, I think its all relative. :D
Yeah only raw bones, but I've heard there are problems with those as well. I'll have to find where I read it. And I used that cleaner too, love that stuff.
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I am glad I'm not the only one confused about this. I have been thinking about changing everyone over from kibble, even before the recall, but it seems like it will be really expensive and time consuming. Also, I know this is the dumbest question ever but, is all the food really raw- like no cooking at all for anyhting? If so, how do you feed? I am picturing raw chicken and salmonella infesting the house. Thanks.
I always feed Lily in the crate on a towel. When she is done I wash towels with hot water and clean the crate. It is pretty useful now when she doesn't want raw meat all the time. When she wants kibble she stands by her food container and when she wants raw she goes straight in her crate.
By the way, you don't have to feed raw only. Some dogs can't tolerate it either. You can make big pot of meal that will last for a week and if it's not finished you can freeze it as well. I boil organs, ground meat, veggies and some extras (oats, barley, brown rice) with garlic. That way it is very convenient and easy to feed.
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Wait until they are mature!!! They will be like bags of potatoes, LOL. Let's see, it's almost 3 p.m. and Lily is still sleeping. Can you believe it? I just can't wake her up!
Yes, I look forward to that day lol. They are so very good, their play sessions last 15 minutes at most, haha. Mine are and have been sleeping too. When they are out of the crate they do alot of getting up to find a more comfy napping place ::)
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Well, I'll first give my background since I was asked to come post here :)
I am a veterinarian, and I have been raw feeding for almost 6 years.
I currently raw feed 2 dobermans and 3 cats (with other raw fed animals in the house) - I have rawfed 6 dogs total, and fed nothing but raw exclusively for 5.5 years to my own dogs.
Where to start -
Protein levels in growing dogs -
Dietary protein levels have no effect on the development of skeletal problems in the growing dog when caloric intake is controlled. (from Nap R. Effects of dietary protein levels on skeletal development in large breed dogs, in Proceedings. Large Breed Health Care Symposium, Venice, Italy; 2001).
Studies have shown it is the CALORIES consumed as well as the CALCIUM supplementatio n in the food that results in the developmental problems. The only problem seen is LOW protein levels, which stunt growth.
Protein levels in kidney disease - "healthy" dogs and cats can easily handle the level of protein found in raw food, EVO, etc . In fact, studies have shown that even with kidney disease, only at END stage renal failure do we need to be concerned about the protein levels - it is the phosphorus levels to be most concerned about. Providing the body with higher protein levels won't hurt - what were dogs and cats designed to eat? Protein! THe kidneys when healthy, deal just fine with any amount given to them. The older studies have been proven wrong, and not applicable to carnivores (they were done in omnivores and worse yet, herbivores!)
Now lets move into what to feed -
NOT feeding bone is a problem - the balance comes from feeding as close to a natural diet as possible, which for me is betwen 10-25% bone. I solve the "balance" problem by feeding as whole as possible - whole turkeys, chickens, rabbit, large sides of beef, etc.
As to cost and ease - it is not as hard as people make it out to be - once you adjust to the diet (And of course depending on what you choose to feed, and how), meal preps don't take long, and it doesn't take much thinking. My dog is fed prey model - he eats pretty much meat, bones, and organ meat (with tripe and heart) - the only grains or veggies he gets are from what he begs from people. Today it was pizza crust from a tech at work!
And cost depends on a lot of things - the best and most cost effective way is to buy in bulk. Between the dogs and cats, I go through about 10-12 lbs of meat a day, depending on what it is (one dobe alone is eating 4-5 lbs a day!). Doing the math, yes that adds up to at least 300 lbs of meat a month. Two other dogs in the house are eating kibble or mostly kibble (one is not mine, one is a foster), and between the two of them, they are going through a 33 lb bag of Innova/EVO every 12-14 days! If my active young male was eating that, it would easily be a bag a week, if not more. Is it the most cost effective feeding? Nope - that's something like Ol' Roy - but for me, the cost is not that bad when looking at the health benefits my dog receives, as well as the comfort I get from feeding a natural diet my animals were biologically designed to eat!
Trying not to ramble... :)
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Well, I'll first give my background since I was asked to come post here :)
I am a veterinarian, and I have been raw feeding for almost 6 years.
I currently raw feed 2 dobermans and 3 cats (with other raw fed animals in the house) - I have rawfed 6 dogs total, and fed nothing but raw exclusively for 5.5 years to my own dogs.
Where to start -
Protein levels in growing dogs -
Dietary protein levels have no effect on the development of skeletal problems in the growing dog when caloric intake is controlled. (from Nap R. Effects of dietary protein levels on skeletal development in large breed dogs, in Proceedings. Large Breed Health Care Symposium, Venice, Italy; 2001).
Studies have shown it is the CALORIES consumed as well as the CALCIUM supplementatio n in the food that results in the developmental problems. The only problem seen is LOW protein levels, which stunt growth.
Protein levels in kidney disease - "healthy" dogs and cats can easily handle the level of protein found in raw food, EVO, etc . In fact, studies have shown that even with kidney disease, only at END stage renal failure do we need to be concerned about the protein levels - it is the phosphorus levels to be most concerned about. Providing the body with higher protein levels won't hurt - what were dogs and cats designed to eat? Protein! THe kidneys when healthy, deal just fine with any amount given to them. The older studies have been proven wrong, and not applicable to carnivores (they were done in omnivores and worse yet, herbivores!)
Now lets move into what to feed -
NOT feeding bone is a problem - the balance comes from feeding as close to a natural diet as possible, which for me is betwen 10-25% bone. I solve the "balance" problem by feeding as whole as possible - whole turkeys, chickens, rabbit, large sides of beef, etc.
As to cost and ease - it is not as hard as people make it out to be - once you adjust to the diet (And of course depending on what you choose to feed, and how), meal preps don't take long, and it doesn't take much thinking. My dog is fed prey model - he eats pretty much meat, bones, and organ meat (with tripe and heart) - the only grains or veggies he gets are from what he begs from people. Today it was pizza crust from a tech at work!
And cost depends on a lot of things - the best and most cost effective way is to buy in bulk. Between the dogs and cats, I go through about 10-12 lbs of meat a day, depending on what it is (one dobe alone is eating 4-5 lbs a day!). Doing the math, yes that adds up to at least 300 lbs of meat a month. Two other dogs in the house are eating kibble or mostly kibble (one is not mine, one is a foster), and between the two of them, they are going through a 33 lb bag of Innova/EVO every 12-14 days! If my active young male was eating that, it would easily be a bag a week, if not more. Is it the most cost effective feeding? Nope - that's something like Ol' Roy - but for me, the cost is not that bad when looking at the health benefits my dog receives, as well as the comfort I get from feeding a natural diet my animals were biologically designed to eat!
Trying not to ramble... :)
So you are stating for large and giant breed owners to feed them high protein diets? This is the first I've ever heard to do that. If people aren't feeding raw, seeing as that's completely a personal choice, are you saying to feed a high protein kibble? Or just high protein when feeding raw since that's what dogs in the wild are meant to eat? I am glad you say you feed the whole animal, since dogs in the wild aren't going to only eat one part of the chicken or something.
But I have to admit I wouldn't be able to feed this way, just reading it disgusts me :-X, hahaha. I don't even prepare meat for my family, I just can't deal with it. No offense to anyone that does and I personally know people that do, but I wouldn't be able to handle it nor do I have room to store that kind of 'food', so for us it's not an ideal solution.. .But I am sure it's the healthiest way to go!
But again, the protein thing is throwing me. That's going against everything I've read and learned and been told. I would not feel comfortable at this point feeding a high protein diet to my pups. :-\
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Momma Pyr I am with you on this one. I just googled the reference that was put in the previous post and got quite a shock.... That symposiun was sponsored by IAMS... a company that I personally am not very impressed with. It was also in 2001 and I am not exactly sure that it is up to date.
Here is the link so that everyone can see for theirselves.
http://www.kenno.ee/next/Large%20Breed%20Health%20Care.pdf
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Momma Pyr I am with you on this one. I just googled the reference that was put in the previous post and got quite a shock.... That symposiun was sponsored by IAMS... a company that I personally am not very impressed with. It was also in 2001 and I am not exactly sure that it is up to date.
Here is the link so that everyone can see for theirselves.
http://www.kenno.ee/next/Large%20Breed%20Health%20Care.pdf
Ah, yes I see. Hm, well anything with Iams attached to it isn't going to get a lot of confidence from me :o
Don't know how I feel about this..
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I know what you mean.... This professor Jurgen Zentek that they keep referring to throughout this whole thing and who was also the keynote speaker and is the IAMS chair in clinical nutrition got his PHD by doing his his work on the "Mineral Metabolism of CATS" So I dont really know what to think... Where is Holly or Jenn when ya need them????
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I know what you mean.... This professor Jurgen Zentek that they keep referring to throughout this whole thing and who was also the keynote speaker and is the IAMS chair in clinical nutrition got his PHD by doing his his work on the "Mineral Metabolism of CATS" So I dont really know what to think... Where is Holly or Jenn when ya need them????
Yes really, we need the food experts :) I see Iams is on the low protein bandwagon too, according to their dry large breed food. :-\
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I am a Pyr breeder and I agree with high quality protein for a growing pup BUT feed only low fat (12%) and minimal grains. A lot of calories come from the fat content and you want to reduce the calories but not the protein. You get a lot fatter from eating fried chicken than from broiled fish analogy!! I can't afford raw so I give a combination of kibble and meat
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momma pyr have you seen this thread??? Holly posted it a while back but I still use it all the time...
http://www.bigpawsonly.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html
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I am a Pyr breeder and I agree with high quality protein for a growing pup BUT feed only low fat (12%) and minimal grains. A lot of calories come from the fat content and you want to reduce the calories but not the protein. You get a lot fatter from eating fried chicken than from broiled fish analogy!! I can't afford raw so I give a combination of kibble and meat
High protein or high quality protein? What do you consider adequate protein to feed your Pyrs?
I HAVE come across other people (breeders, owners) that each have their own opinion of feeding high or low protein and that seems to be what it comes down to- opinion, so I'm just curious.. and also very confused now, ha
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I like anywhere between 24-28% protein and I supplement the kibble with some meat. I keep my puppies lean during growing and feed according to condition. If someone is too thin I simply up the fat and carbohydrate content of their food by cooking my famous doggy stew.
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Where is Holly or Jenn when ya need them????
Well, you know ... ask and ye shall receive ;)
Holly is at a conference, so the real food guru can't weigh in. I'm a mere peon of dog nutritionaloci ty (with my very own language though, thank you very much!) but I will put in my two cents ...
I have never heard of the protein levels explained quite the way as they are in that study, with the focus on caloric intake rather than protein itself. I read a lot of food info from The Great Dane Lady when researching food options. She estimates that in the wild, dogs consume 50-55% protein, which isn't a problem, because it is digested and processed differently than the protein in kibble. She suggests kibble (holistic or super premium) for most grown dogs be in the 20-30% range. Most of your kibble protein recommendation s will back up the later figure, and many raw food websites will give you the same info on wild dog forage.
That makes sense to me. Of course the kibble will be processed differently than actual meat. That is why a lot of the grain free kibbles has much higher protein ratios than the average kibble. They are much closer to a raw diet. That being said, I don't think you can just throw caution to the wind and feed whatever you want. With the higher protein levels in grain free foods and raw diets, you need to be certain not to overfeed. With raw diets you still need to balance the nutritional intake and, I believe (Although many others have, and will, disagree with me) supplement.
So, I think its a little trickier than what that study makes it out to be. And no, I would never ever trust a study that IAMS put out. Nor would I trust any one study on anything to be valid, or to be the be all end all of any type of information.
JMHO.
Yeah, that makes sense..as far as the difference in digestion and use. Funny I was just reading the great dane lady's site and she seems to push/suggest Eagle Pack a lot. I read where she was going over that same IAMS study.
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Yeah, that makes sense..as far as the difference in digestion and use. Funny I was just reading the great dane lady's site and she seems to push/suggest Eagle Pack a lot. I read where she was going over that same IAMS study.
She does mention Eagle Pack a lot. That is what her own dogs eat. There are a lot more mentioned on her Better Dog Foods page. The list has a lot of the same foods recommended by The Whole Dog Journal.
I meant to post this link earlier ... it explains a little more about the quality vs. quantity of protein thing. If you haven't checked out The Doog Food Project, definitely browse through it. Its a great site.
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth
Oh yeah the dog food project, I remembering going through that when I did all sorts of research before I got my Eskie puppy, but I could use a review ;)
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If the rule of thumb with our giants is to feed less than 23% protien, how does one do that on a raw diet? If the answer is 3/4 veggies 1/4 raw meat, how does that cut down on gas? Give my guys a raw carrot and they will blow you out of the house for two days! ???
Stella
To start, the common optimal protein levels you see advocated by kibble companies is on a DRY MATTER BASIS or DM - this cannot be directly compared to whole fresh raw foods, since raw meat is 60-70% water. As a result, to get an apples to apples comparison, one must calculate the DM of food. I often do this in the diet consultations I perform when folks feel they need to know how it compares, otherwise, I do not see it as relevant.
Dogs are carnivores and I have always seen them do best on high protein. As DobeDVM offered, and this is true, it is not the protein level that drives growth and orthopedic problems - it is calcium levels and overall calories. A dog grows too fast because he is consuming too many calories, and OCD and HD have been shown in several studies to be linked to excessive calcium supplementatio n.
I find it frustrating that we have so many vets in america who have been out of school for so long and not maintaining continuing education. In their defense, vet school curriculum does not provide nutrition education - maybe one class - and if they have been in practice for a long time, they likely know little to nothing about nutrition except what they were told by Hills - who produces all of their text books and seminars (hence why so many vets stock Hills Prescription diets in their office).
If there is a vet saying that high protein is bad for the kidneys then shame on him. There are scores of reports and articles by medical expects in this field who have long since shown that it is not the quantity of protein, but the quality of protein. Kibble protein diets are usually removed in kidney disease - this is true, because this is not quality protein. Fresh foods and high quality protein has helped scores of Bernese Mtn. Dogs with kidney disease that I have seen - and these diets were actually higher protein than their kibble diet. The quality of protein is what most impacts how hard the kidneys have to work.
Since Bernese Mtn Dogs have fragile immune systems and weak endocrine systems, many many are raw fed (or homecooked at least) and I find more raw fed in this breed than any of my others. Berners do better on fresh foods and high quality protein as a result and I believe are great evidence for a natural diet. I have raised four dogs on a raw diet - my current Berner is 4th generation raw on both sides and has never eaten processed food. Her annual blood tests do not reveal overworked kidneys so far, and she is orthopedically sound with OFA certification. There are differences with raw fed dogs - they are often higher energy - I believe vitality is an indicator of health however and a good thing - and have greater stamina. Most raw feeders I encounter have trouble keeping weight on their dogs, because they do not realize how many calories their dogs require and underfeed calories - rather than overfeed. I think this is easy to do on a natural diet.
Please do not get me wrong - because I do not mean to imply that concerns about this diet are not valid. I do believe it is more work than pouring food out of a bag, and it requires more work to know how to balance the diet and ensure you are providing all nutrients. You CAN mess up a dog, and especially a growing puppy, if one does not know what to feed, and how much to feed it. The bacteria is not a concern in my view if good judgment and appropriate steps are taken. My dogs eat food out of a bowl every night and indoors, but they always eat their bones outside. Handling raw meat is the same whether cooking for ourselves or our dogs, so little impact there.