Author Topic: barking turned into biting.....  (Read 6415 times)

nickerbokker

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barking turned into biting.....
« on: July 25, 2005, 03:28:07 pm »
k.  well, anyone who thinks angus is cute is stupid cuz he's not....he is now actually nipping at people.

his barking means many things.  when he gets really excited he barks, when we come to stairs, he get SOOOO excited he does not stop barking, when he looks at his food bin he barks, when he wants to wake me up he barks, when peopel knock on my door he just plain freaks out, when he sees people he loves he barks, when he sees people he is scared of he barks....the dog wont shut up.  any ideas on THIS would be great......BUT ......

now, within the last two weeks or so, he barks and then tries to nip peoples hands....which he has donw with people he knows...but most importantly, with people he doesnt.  he has not gotten anyone yet, but im scared he is going to...and we all know the cops will be at my door 15 seconds later....this IS la afterall.  i am scared for other people to get bit, but most importantly, i am scared for ANGUS'S life.  im not being dramatic here, i am being honest.  if this continues, and gets worse or even stays the same....it could end up BAD! 

what advice do ANY of you have.  i need as much help as i can get because i am concerned for my doggies little life here. 

thanks
nicki

Icerotti

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2005, 04:11:16 pm »
What about using a halti when you walk him. That way you can control his head, close his mouth  at the same time while giving a correction. Good Luck ;D

Offline GrumpyBunny

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2005, 04:31:32 pm »
Nicki, can I ask a few questions?  I have gone thru a similar type thing with Ranger...

WHEN is he nipping at people's hands? 
 -Are they reaching out to pet him at the time?  If so, what part of his body are they trying to pet, i.e. are they reaching towards his head, or what? 

What is his body language at the time of the nipping?
- Is he straining to get at someone, and barking and nipping at the same time?  Or is he kind of backing away as he is nipping?  Is he growling at all when he is trying to nip?

Is he on his leash when this happens?  Off his leash?

One thing that we all know can happen with puppies who are not able to be with their mother for an optimal length of time is that they miss out on some important lessons about bite inhibition and where/when it is "ok" to bite.  You mentioned that he had been bite-y with you lately, right?  How old is he again?  Maybe he is going thru his bratty teenage stage of testing you on top of everything else...

Sorry to be so nosy, but I am trying to get a clearer picture.  Even then I don't know that any of my advice would be helpful, but I want to make sure I at least understand before I spout off...
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nickerbokker

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2005, 04:53:14 pm »

WHEN is he nipping at people's hands? 
 -Are they reaching out to pet him at the time?  If so, what part of his body are they trying to pet, i.e. are they reaching towards his head, or what? 

yes, its when they reach down to pet him....and yes, its usually for the head!  where else to you pet?

What is his body language at the time of the nipping?
- Is he straining to get at someone, and barking and nipping at the same time?  Or is he kind of backing away as he is nipping?  Is he growling at all when he is trying to nip?

both.  sometimes, he is approaching them (either silent or barking)...and he is trying to smell them or whatever....so metimes its someone he knows and still he nips, and sometimes, they approach him

Is he on his leash when this happens?  Off his leash?
always on.  he is only off leash in my apartment, in the dog park, or on the roof.

One thing that we all know can happen with puppies who are not able to be with their mother for an optimal length of time is that they miss out on some important lessons about bite inhibition and where/when it is "ok" to bite.  You mentioned that he had been bite-y with you lately, right?  How old is he again?  Maybe he is going thru his bratty teenage stage of testing you on top of everything else...

yes, he growls at me, AND nips at me.  he is 7months

Sorry to be so nosy, but I am trying to get a clearer picture.  Even then I don't know that any of my advice would be helpful, but I want to make sure I at least understand before I spout off...

you aren't nosy.  i would ask the same questions!  half the time, i have no advice, but wanna hear more of the story! 



i also have tried that halti....not in a while.....but when he was smaller he had it, he hated it...and he made my leg raw from rubbing.  even though i would yell, shake a can, whatever, he didnt care, he still rubbed.  now he's on a pinch

Offline mastiffmommy

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2005, 04:53:16 pm »
Very good questions Grumpy......

I was also wondering how he is reacting, more in detail Nicki.... if it is when he gets attention or when he doesnt from other people. If he actually pulls towards them, if so is he barking while doing it, how does the people he wants to approach react, then how does he react. It would be great with more details. It is hard to give advice when you are on the other side of the country, but maybe just maybe a little easier if we get to know exactly how, why, when and where.

I totally understand your worry, and the halti is a good idea. Also if you are really really worried, until the problem is solved you may even concider a muzzle, I know how it sounds, but until you really knows why and how to deal with it, that would be a way to protect both people and Wangus, we would all be devestated if anything happened to him, so maybe just until you got an idea whats up.

I am pretty convinced though, that whatever problem he has, is due to his loss of his mom and also that in combination with his age and the fact that he probably is having hormons hopping all over the place now.

I hope we can be of some help, because you can totally count me in amongst the stupid ones lol.... I love him and think he is super cute

Marit
what the lion is to a cat, the mastiff is to a dog

nickerbokker

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2005, 04:55:01 pm »
oh yeah!  i forgot....HE ALSO GETS PISSED WHEN PEOPLE IGNORE HIM! 

catch 22.  he's gonna bite if you try to pet him, and gonna try to EAT if you dont!

lmao.  he's a lost cause

Offline GrumpyBunny

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2005, 05:00:43 pm »
OK, I am leaving work now, but I will post a big post at some point tonight when I am home.  Ranger did some of the same things, so I can at least share what has worked for us, so far....

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Offline pndlake

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2005, 05:06:25 pm »
Oh Niki, remember I saw him, remember the lady in the dog park?  Well I think he is just going through those teenage times.  The halti is a good idea, but I have never had to use it.  You see I am a very alpha type person and I do not EVER allow that type of behavour.  Like you say, in California, it doesn't take much before you have a line of hungry lawyers knocking on your door.  Take it or leave it, my solution is to grab his muzzle with both hands and squeeze as hard as you can while saying something like - you will NOT do this.  If you happen to get his tongue in between the teeth all the better. I hold on tight as long as I can and he is on the floor.  I do not let go until he has calmed down.   If you can sit on him then you can feel his body language and understand when he has calmed down, then release him.  It works for me but you need a certain type of person or nuthead.  ;)  Oh yes, your guest will probably head for the hills but oh well.

Peggy
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Offline pndlake

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2005, 05:38:49 pm »
Oh yeh, I used the same method on my son when he threw a temper tantrum and he turned out pretty good.  He did not have a muzzle to squeeze but I sat on him while he was screaming and would not let go until he calmed down, the worst that could happen was he would pass out.  To heck with time out, or stand in the corner.   ;D
Peggy

BabsT

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2005, 06:04:53 pm »
I feel that the dog need training...A muzzle and other things to preventing him not to nip isnt teaching him not to, just preventing him.  I feel that is not a solution to the problem but will supress it

How is your dog at OB and do you always do OB when out in public.  Is the dog acting fearful when people are 'attempting' to pet him or is he demanding to be pet.  What are his tail and ears doing when he is nipping, his body language can show you his issue...confid ent, fearful, dominant etc...

When you dog barks at the food bin, do you feed him and do you get up when he barks at you?  If so, you are reinforcing the behavior.

Have you used the NILIF (nothing in life is free) program...you can google it, if you are unfamiliar with it.  I feel it works very well as long as you are consistant

The other thing, no one is allowed to approach my dog, his temp is serious enough that he wouldnt allow it.  My dog needs to approach you first.  He will give plently of warning if you are in his space but he will always give a warning.  He will also need to be in a sit before I allow pats

You dog is prob trying to test his waters to see how strong and consistant his mama is because he is an adolesent (sp)

Good Luck

Offline GrumpyBunny

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2005, 07:43:48 pm »
OK, you have received some good suggestions here, and I can add a little from personal experience... 

First of all, Angus probably is going thru a period of testing you.  Dogs do what works for them, and he is probably learning that barking, growling and nipping works for him in terms of getting what he wants.  That could be actually getting something that he wants, ie. he stands by the food bin and barks until you get up and get him a treat, or it could be by the removal of something he doesn't want, ie. someone is coming up to pet him and he barks and growls and they go away... 

So, I agree that something like a NILIF program could be a good first step for him.  That would help him to learn that he is not in control - you are.  You control when and what he eats, you control the petting he gets, you control his access to all good stuff.  Does he have a reliable sit?  You could start small by making him sit before putting his food down, making him sit before you open the door to go outside, before you take off his leash etc.  Maybe you already do some of this...

As far as him actually nipping at people, here is what happened with Ranger (keeping it short as possible)...  He began to nip and occasionally growl at people in what I thought was a random fashion.  I was horrified, and basically thought I was going to need to get rid of him, cause he was a "bad" dog.  It took a lot of reconditioning on my part to realize that he isn't "bad" because he does these things - growling and air snapping are a dogs natural way of saying 'Hey, I am uncomfortable with this, please back off" BEFORE they actually bite.  It is like an early warning system, and a dog that gives these early warnings is MUCH better than a dog that bites without warning.  That being said, I agree that it is still unacceptable.  At this point I think your main goals are to try to reduce how reactive Angus is to people while at the same time keeping him out of situations that are uncomfortable for him.  This is another way of showing him that you are in charge - and that you can "handle" the situation and don't need him to step in do it for you, per se.

With Ranger, we determined that the situations that made him uncomfortable were when people he didn't know reached for his head, especially if he felt "surrounded" by people or if his leash was tight.  Now when people ask to pet him, I ask them not to pet his head and would they mind giving him a belly rub instead.  He loves to have his belly rubbed, and has learned the command, "belly", and will now often even offer up his belly voluntarily when someone approaches to pet him.  I also give him small treats as the person is rubbing his belly.  So this is a total win situation  - it is hard for him to bite when he is upside down, he gets a fun belly rub, he gets treats, and the situation of being petted by someone he doesn't know is positioned as a very positive thing for him. 

I understand that this might not be totally applicable to Angus, but maybe you could begin to take some small similar steps - maybe take some small treats with you (and these can be quite small) and ask each person that wants to pet him to offer him a treat first.  Or, did you mention that he likes to carry a tennis ball?  Maybe you could take the tennis ball with you and give it to him when you encounter another person... That way he would associate seeing another person with getting something good, and he couldn't nip with the ball in his mouth...

OK, this has gone on TOO LONG, but I might have some other ideas, and a good book for you to read.  If you want to talk more, you can always feel free to PM me, or I will give you my phone number or whatever.  If I need to come up there and be a "friendly stranger" who stuffs treats in his mouth while you praise him, I will totallly do that. 

I know how much you love him and how worried you are about losing him (because I have been there myself), but I really think he is probably just a young hooligan feeling his oats, and he can get over this.  Hang in there!  Lemme know if you need to talk... ;)
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Offline mastiffmommy

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2005, 12:07:50 am »
BabsT, just to avoid confusion, I did not mean a muzzle to be a solution, only a safety net, while the problem is being addressed and solved. Better to have a muzzle on for awhile than to have a dog in the slammer after having nipped someone. But as you say, it is definately not a solution to the problem.

Marit
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nickerbokker

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2005, 01:05:34 am »
from now on...i am going to walk outside with shoulder pads on, and when angus barks, growls, nips, im going to blow a wistle and tackle him!  i'll be like the crazy brother in ace ventura!

thank you EVERYONE for your wonderful advice....i willl get crackin tomorrow.....l iterally~! lol.

i will respond more later!  promise!

Offline Joji

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2005, 07:34:32 am »
Excellent advice. I'm no expert but have had some personal experience with aggression. In my case, our pup started asserting herself when she was less than 6 mos old. My inexperience at the time did not recognize the signs ... the growling, the nips, the demands for attention or to be left alone. Needless to say, the behavior escalated into a full-blown skin-ripping bite to my husband. The only thing I would add is that action should be taken immediately. Every day delayed is another day of reinforcing the dog's inappropriate behavior.

- Teresa
If you think dogs can't count, try putting three dog biscuits in your pocket and then giving Fido only two of them. -Phil Pastoret

Offline RedyreRottweilers

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Re: barking turned into biting.....
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2005, 07:59:56 am »
I would make you several recommendation s.

1) If he were my dog, or coming to me for training, this dog would learn very fast how to be a dog again, and who was in charge of his life. Dogs do not understand any living arrangement except a hierarchy. If YOU are not in charge, the dog will feel he must take charge. See here for how to unravel that without having to get physical with your dog:  http://www.chowwelfare.com/cciw/alpha.htm

2) He needs a training class. ASAP. If he is not neutered I would be having that done TODAY.

3) sometimes undesireable behaviors like barking can be managed by being put on what is called "stimulus control". You teach the dog to bark on command. You then reward him for barking when you ask. At the same time you reward the dog also for being QUIET when you ask. You don't ask for the bark behavior if you dont' want it, and if it comes up unwanted, you then have a quiet command to use. Here is how it works.

Each time the dog is vocalizing, give this behavior a name. Say "GOOOD, "say woof". (this is my speak command, just because I think it's cute, but you can use "speak", "bark", "say it", whatever. Say the name you want the behavior to have, and food reward the dog. He will quickly learn to vocalize for the treat. Then you can hold the treat, and when he vocalized, say AH AH, quiet. When he's quiet, say GOOD quiet, and give the treat. He will quickly learn the difference. Now you have a 1ay to quiet him. Sometimes a hand around the muzzle can help with a moment of quiet for you to reward.

I felt before that the barking of this dog in so many different circumstances was the beginning of an issue, but did not want to step in because you indicated it was not really a problem.

These behaviors have a way of escalating if they are not addressed, and it appears that he has (in his mind) been so successful with his barking behavior that he now feels it is ok to disclipline people by using his teeth.

Here is some information on how to teach BITE INHIBITION in dogs. It works for any dog, and is an especially good exercise for puppies.

There are several good articles here, and this is a good site for a lot of training info:  http://www.doglogic.com/apdtfaqs2.htm#bitelyn

I would also work with this dog consistently on body handling, which is pleasant for the dog, but definitely puts YOU in the leader position.

Have the dog lie on his side with his back to you while you give body massage. All over the body. Handle the head, hold the muzzle while you inspect the ears and massage them. Lift lips and look at all teeth, and open the mouth. Work backwards down the neck all the way to the rear. Make sure to carefully handle each foot, and inspect armpits and genital areas. It's a good idea for all dog owners to do this once per week. You can head off many medical issues in their early stages by being familiar with your dog's body. Puppies trained for body handling like this have no issues at the groomer or the vets, and are easy for YOU to medicate or inspect at home as well. Some dogs will need to be held down for the first few sessions. Balance the body handling (which many dogs find not very pleasant in the beginning) with very pleasant massage, brushing, rubbing, etc, so that you have very little struggle in the beginning. Work up to the point that you can hold your dog's muzzle without any struggle (this is one of the most important parts of leadership body handling....yo u control the muzzle, you control the dog....a main reason why many dogs resist this form of restraint. It's important for a dog to learn that you can and will control his head. Dogs can learn this with almost no struggle if you start with very short periods of control and work up gradually combining it with the pleasant body handling.

If you will work on these things, and consult a trainer in your area, your barking/nipping issues will resolve themselves, I do believe.

In the meantime, and really, this is ALWAYS important, CONTROL the interactions that your dog has with the public. Control the dog, control the people. If you don't want people petting him for a while, when you take him out, tell people "sorry, he's in training, maybe next time." When they ask to pet him. As mentioned earlier, many dogs do not like to be touched on the top of the head or body. This is a dominant gesture, and dogs may feel it is RUDE and AN INVASION OF THEIR BODY SPACE when someone who is not a pack/family member touches them in this manner.

Encourage people to touch the dog on the chest, or under the chin.

I really get the impression that your pup is just a little too big for his britches. If you take the right course, he should learn quickly that he is not the head of the class, YOU are.

:D
« Last Edit: July 26, 2005, 08:02:20 am by RedyreRottweilers »
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