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Mastiffs => Old English Mastiff Discussions => : rv581 August 03, 2005, 01:53:08 PM
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I had always heard that mastiffs have a well-deserved reputation for being among the most intelligent of canine breeds... but author, psychologist, and trainer S. Coren -- who wrote "The Intelligence of Dogs" -- thinks otherwise. In fact, he has mastiffs listed among the most **stupid** of dogs. Out of the 79 breeds he ranks in intellect, mastiffs clocked in at a lowly #72 (tied with the beagle).
Website:
http://www.petrix.com/dogint/
Info on Coren's book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553374524/intelligenofdogs/103-5871936-3722231
(And FYI -- I own a mastiff (American Mastiff) myself, so PLEASE don't interpret this as me trying to lambast a dog breed. I was just shocked at how low the mastiff was listed on that chart, as I had always heard that dogs that were bred to perform tasks -- like the mastiff, German Shepherd, etc. -- were, on average, more intelligent than breeds that weren't.)
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That topic made me spit but juice all over the poor puter (yessssss I steel Jennifers bug juices hehe)
I have bullmastiff and oem and have had several different breeds, and personally I dont think they are the smartest in the world, but they are definately NOT stupid. If I compare my mastiffs to say the GS I had well he probably did think a bit more, I have also had mixed breeds that have been super smart and the border collie well he was thinking for two. But I really really dont think they are any more stupid than most dogs I have met. Ranking 72 outof 79 lol......
I have to read those links you have there. I wont let Hera and Galahad read them though, they might decide to gang up on the puter hehe
marit
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That topic made me spit but juice all over the poor puter (yessssss I steel Jennifers bug juices hehe)Â
You might want to edit that -- there's a WORLD of difference between bug juice and butt juice, I'm sure! (Just bustin' your chops!)
Yeah, check out the links... I found out about this book in a news story about the S. Korean scientists who just cloned a dog (the book was cited in the article) and it really floored me how lowly the mastiff ranked... and obviously, given the dog that's napping besides my feet right now, it's not a ranking I find all that enthralling...
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Maia, OEM, has her stupid moments but so does Rocco, Newf/Rott mix. I don't think I would rank them that high as being stupid but I wouldn't put them in the top 10 of being smart.
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That topic made me spit but juice all over the poor puter (yessssss I steel Jennifers bug juices hehe)Â
You might want to edit that -- there's a WORLD of difference between bug juice and butt juice, I'm sure! (Just bustin' your chops!)
Yeah, check out the links... I found out about this book in a news story about the S. Korean scientists who just cloned a dog (the book was cited in the article) and it really floored me how lowly the mastiff ranked... and obviously, given the dog that's napping besides my feet right now, it's not a ranking I find all that enthralling...
LMAO hahahaha ohhhh well everyone who knows me on here, knows that I have a tendancy to always find my way to the rear end hehe
I have read some of it, and am working on the rest between posts here, it would be real interesting to know what that ranking is based on, how it is determied who is smart and who is stupid, because just as with us people. some are good at certain things and some at other things. The dogs are like that too, so if you take two very different types of dogs and give them the same test well hmmmm how do you determine? just a thought
Marit
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It's an interesting list.
And I'm the first to call my dog stupid.
But I'm in a mood today. And the first thing that came to my mind is: I am the only person that is allowed to call my dog stupid. Not some pencil pusher trying to sell a book.
Like I said, I'm in a mood. Probably the heat.
Tina
here here Tina, I call my dogs stupid too from time to time, but I do it with love and dont really mean it, but if someone who hasnt even met them call them stupid and it is not a joke Ill be a mean ol' mama
Marit
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Nigel isn't a mastiff or anything but I am pretty sure he is one of the stupidest dogs in the world. And I mean that in the most loving way possible. I LOVE THIS DOG, but people, he is dumb as dirt. :D
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Like I said, I'm in a mood. Probably the heat.
Tina
HA! HA! Tina's in heat!!
Just kidding. Seriously though, I don't know about the OEM, but I'll vouch for the beagle being on the bottom of the cerebral heap. They are definitely in the top 5 for olfactory excellence, but their talents definitely stop at the nose! Our beagle is sweet as can be, but dumb as a rock.
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and the border collie well he was thinking for two.
What was it like having a border collie, I've always thought they were the neatest dogs, but seemed like it would be hard to keep them entertained.
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and the border collie well he was thinking for two.
What was it like having a border collie, I've always thought they were the neatest dogs, but seemed like it would be hard to keep them entertained.
Well the border collie we had started out as a foster, we ended up fostering him for hmmmm over a year, because he has so many issues when he came, and yes you are right they are very very demanding dogs and I truly believe that, that is one of the reasons at least around here we see so many borders and border mixes in the shelters. They NEED to work with something, if you dont make them work, they will find something to work with themselves and that is usually rather destructable stuff lol.....
We took him for walks several times a day, we have a yard he could explore in, we took him to clicker training (he was extremely timid when he came so that was an excellent form of training) we were walking aroung at petsmart and basically made him slow down from going in 300 miles per hour to a rather normal border collie. When he was ready, well of course I was totally in love with him, BUT even though we have a couple of acres here, he would never have been as happy here as he could somewhere else. So after having screened about 35 adoptees, we took him to one place, they live on hmmm think it is 16 acres with a driveway 2 miles long, they have goats, horses and are totally outdoorsy people who are out working in the woods all day long and Rusty (the border collie) are with them. After the first glance and talk to these people I knew that this was Rustys forever home. I cried of course when we left him and they had to hold him because he wanted to try and run after the car, which made me cry even harder. BUT he has been there for almost 3 years and he is the happiest dog ever. I keep in touch with his family and they are wonderful.
But I would not advice anyone who doesnt have lots of time or something they can herd, or are willing to do serious work of some kind with the dog, to get a border collie. They are wonderful dogs but not for everyone. Hmmmm sorry for totally making a book outof this post lol ;D
Marit
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Thank you for the reply MastiffMommy! Thats kinda what I was hoping against, but figured it was true. Scratcjh a border collie. Cats don't take to well to being herded, and there is no way I could keep one busy enough.
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I went from having dobermans that are generally on the top 10 of most intelligence lists to great danes that are generally on the lower end of the lists. Although the dobes are smarter and generally easier to train, the danes have made us laugh more with their antics and are less high maintenance... Being cough potatos. And for"stupid" dogs,the danes get their way in some surprisingly clever ways.
Stella
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This is how another American Mastiff owner responded, when I posted this question on an AM board... thought this would be of interest:
"Coren is from my old university UBC and I've read his book.
The "intelligence" scores are based on a series of standardized tests
such as putting a blanket over the dogs head and seeing how long its
takes it to get it off.
I believe that those particular scores related to training the dog to
do the things you want it to do. For example, we would all agree that
it is easier to teach a poodle to do cutesy tricks than a mastiff.
Other dogs were rated on doing the things they love to do, like
herding. So again its easier to teach a border collie to herd than a
bulldog.
Are mastiff stupid? No. Are they headstrong (even a bit stubborn)? Yes
Its amazing to see how much easier it is to get Moya to do things when
there is a special treat involved (turkey breast, cheese, etc.)"
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Marit that story of the boarder collie brought tears to my eyes!!! I was thinking of being a foster mom but I don't know if I could take it. Having to give the dog to a new home
Nina
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Thank you for the reply MastiffMommy! Thats kinda what I was hoping against, but figured it was true. Scratcjh a border collie. Cats don't take to well to being herded, and there is no way I could keep one busy enough.
Brandon
I have a Pyr boader collie mix and he is a lot of work, an we do have to think of ways to entertain him, thankfully harley our Lab helps with that, we take him for long walks, off leash parks, he loves to run so that tires him out. Yeaterday we went to a park and there was another boarder collie mix there and it was so cute to see them play and run togeather :) And we do have a cat too, and you are right she doesn't like being herded but she will tolerate him, she swats him if he gets too close. And we have trained him to not touch her, he can lick ect but no paw is to touch her, our Lab knows this as well. He is alot of work but he is worth it, he is soo full of personality ;D
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Marit that story of the boarder collie brought tears to my eyes!!! I was thinking of being a foster mom but I don't know if I could take it. Having to give the dog to a new home
Nina
I know Nina, it is hard and I dont do a lot of fostering. I love animals and working in rescue can be sooooo hard. Im sure you have read somewhere here, that I have done that for more than 20 years, and I think the one thing it has tought me is to, in order to make it, you ALWAYS have to keep the animals best for your eyes. Sometimes it is to have an animal put to sleep, even if you would want to do everything possible to try and help it to stay alive, you know that certain cases the best thing is for the dog or cat or whatever it is, to go to the bridge. Also with fostering, when it is time to let them go, it is sooooo hard, you have invested so much time and emotions and fallen in love with them and now you have to let go. It IS easier though with dogs you know, will without a doubt have a better life somewhere else, you cant provide the ultimate home for him due to breed specifics or other issues. then is is hard but you also have such a warm and fussy feeling when you know you screened well, know the dog is going to one super home and you keep in tough with them. It is harder when it is a dog you know it is possible for you to keep. Then you have to focus on the next dog, knowing that if you keep the fosterdogs and make them permanent family members, there might not be a foster home for the next dog that is only having hours left.
BUT I agree Nina, it is heart breaking and hard. The only thing that help you go thought it, is to focus on the dogs future and all the dogs you have and can help. I am still keeping in touch with every single home where I have placed dogs, not only the ones I have fostered myself but all that I have been Case Manager for or done the home visit. I have 20 years of families, and even the ones where the dogs have passed away many years ago, I still keep in touch with, and that is what makes me going, there ARE good homes out there, and that makes it a little easier to go thought the tough and sad days.
Marit