Baby shaken to death...Question

[doggylover]

I have a very serious question for everyone and I am hoping that you all can give me rational, non-emotional opinions on a terribly emotional issue.  Someone in my family (with a 3 year old and a difficult 5 year old) is dating a man who, 16 years ago, at age 21, shook his 6 week old baby daughter to death.  He also had a 2 year old son at the time.  He got 32 years for it, and was released 15 years early (because of retroactive change in legislation)2 years ago.  He is now studying to be a minister and ministered inmates in prison. 
He says that it was purely accidental, with no intent to kill her, only to quiet her.  Family members have hired an investigater to find out why the sentence was so long, and if he had had a prior record when he did it. 
Here is the question.  Do you all think this is a danger to the 3 and 5 year olds?  Do you think intent at that time is relevent?  Do you think it matters that it was so long ago, and he says he is rehabilitated?  I am curious what people who aren't emotionally involved think, because I am too close to the situation to be objective. 
Ronda

[macybean]

My gut feeling is that it's a bad idea to have him around children. I think he likely has a short fuse, and perhaps he "knows better" now, but I wouldn't count on it.

I also do not think he was just trying to quiet the child. At 21, anyone knows the difference. Would he try to quiet an older child by throwing them across the room if he became very frustrated with them one afternoon? I'm sorry to be graphic, but I have a close friend who was abused as a child and witnessed his mother's abuse. This is one of those things that I would have trouble believing someone had changed in themselves. I'm not saying he can't change; I'm saying that if I had children, I wouldn't trust him around them.

It also bothers me that he says it was accidental (which I don't think it could be-he may not have meant to kill her, but he meant to shake her) and doesn't take responsbility for it.

I hope everything works out, whatever your family member decides.

[NoDogNow]

The length of sentence may be related to how the charges were filed.  Some jurisidictions file strictly on the top count (the death of the baby) while other jurisdictions may file multiple counts (child abuse counts, assault/battery counts, multiple options of homicide), and how many counts he was convicted of.  If there was a legislative change that affected his sentence, I would guess that probably he was convicted of multiple offenses based on this one act? 

As for him being around kids:  A 21 year old left with a 2 year old and a newborn has a much lower frustration threshold than a 37 year old.  And I'd also be willing to bet money that he didn't have much, if any, any parenting support.  I would be willing, if the investigation doesn't turn up any major discrepancies in his story, to believe that it was an accident. There's not much more fragile than a newborn. I've seen cases of "shaken baby" in medical records that occurred because of rough play by older siblings. 

That said, even if it was an accident, it was born out of his frustration.

He may have learned to control his frustraton levels, and maybe learned how to handle himself around kids.  That said, your cousin needs to know that she needs to take this VERY, very slowly, and not just because his conviction is for hurting a child.  This guy has been in PRISON for nearly half his life!  There's a lot of institutional mindset that he's going to need to overcome before he's remotely a candidate for anything other than casual dating. 

She shouldn't even introduce him to her kids for AT LEAST a year.  She needs to build a reliable relationship with him, entirely exclusive of her children before she allows her children to potentially get attached.

If after at least a year, they're still dating and considering taking the relationship beyond dating, then he STILL shouldn't be left alone with the kids for a least another year--because no matter how long ago it was, or how accidental, his daughter is still dead at his hands.  Before he's left with the kids, he needs to have a solid track record of supervised interaction.

[PennyK]

I know I wouldn't be comfortable with him around my children but I can argue both sides too. 

Babies can be frustrating but they don't hold a candle to the frustration a 3 yr old can cause!  Thats no excuse. I would never be able to trust him.

That said, I'm a completely different person now at 33 than I was a 21 - its like it was a lifetime ago.  I doubt he is the same person he was back then. 

Tough call but I think NDN has some great advice.

[VdogLover]

Do you all think this is a danger to the 3 and 5 year olds?  
Yes and I would never allow him around my children.

Do you think intent at that time is relevant?
Anyone older then 5 should know that shaking
a baby is not a good idea.

Do you think it matters that it was so long ago, and he says he is rehabilitated?
 If he was rehabilitated he would take blame for what happen and not say it was an accident.
People who have the inability to control their anger do not get better while in prison.

I have a nephew who has been in prison twice following "anger issues". He is still a danger to himself and others around him. For years I thought I was safe around him that he and I were close enough he would never harm me. That feeling left the day I said no to driving him somewhere and was answered back with a slap across the face and him screaming. He also has a 3 yo son who when acting up has brought that look of rage to my nephews eyes. If others had not been around to take the child away (he only get supervised visits) I'm sure he would be another statistic of abuse.

[brandon]

Not what you're asking, but I will say this.. It is possible for people to learn patience with time.  I used to be an angry young man lacking any sort of patience.  I still sorely lack patience for stupid or hypocrtical people. (Melissa would probably agree with this ) But, I am much more patient with everything else than I used to be.

[doggylover]

Everything you guys said, are things that I have also thought.  I guess we won't know how to procede until the private investigator comes back with more information.  My 'gut instincts' are usually very good, but in this situation, I am torn because on the one hand I know that people can and do change, on the other hand, my insides are screaming that its dangerous.  I can't do anything myself, but I can, and am, encouraging my brother (whose children they are with his now ex-wife) to find out more before doing anything. 
Imagine his surprise when, out of idle curiosity and nosiness he googled the guy and saw, "child killer walks free".  He said he almost fell out of his chair.  It probably serves him right for being a snoop (not that the guy is possibly horribly dangerous, but that he found out that way). 
 
Ronda

[cricket36580]

In a situation like this, it's almost impossible to determine the danger unless one is close to the participants.  No, I wouldn't leave my children unattended with him.  I wouldn't leave them with ANYONE who had been in prison that recently...Not because of what he did, but because of the whole "institution" mindset.  The other thing that would really bother me is the fact that he "found religion" in prison.  Ok...And what is his point?  How many murderers, rapists, and others convicted of violent crime "find the lord" while in prison so they (supposedly) get leniency?  Then I would have the whole issue of the ministry.  There isn't a minister, deacon or Sunday school teacher that I would leave my kids alone with.  Period.  Ever.  It's my neurosis to deal with.... 

All that being said...SBS can actually be caused by accident.  Or maybe not accident so much as carelessness.  If you don't have any parenting skills and you don't have anywhere to turn and no one to turn to, then what are you supposed to do?  I would look at his relationship with his son and ex.  How does he relate to others around him?  Does he have a temper?  These are questions that only those close to the situation can answer.

[GR8DAME]

I agree with Holly, babies are not that fragile, one does not shake a baby to death by "accident". I have had two kids, so I am not theorizing here, I know.
That being said, I cannot judge someone on their actions 20 years ago, but you can bet he wouldn't be anywhere near my young kids unsupervised. Ever. But neither is anyone that hasn't killed anyone.
Stella

[redbreast]

This could be debated or dicussed til the cows come home.  It's as simple as one question... why would any mother take the chance

[aggghgmom]

I certainly hope he has been rehabilitated however, I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT leave him with my children, not for one minute.  Unfair of me, maybe but better safe than sorry!

[doggylover]

This could be debated or dicussed til the cows come home.  It's as simple as one question... why would any mother take the chance

I agree, however, I am also concerned with the future in this situation.  It is looking like his ex may marry this guy.  At some point, he will be alone with them (I would assume this would happen in a marriage). 
Thank you so much for all your input you guys, it is very helpful. 
Ronda

[NoDogNow]

NOW you've worried me. 

Not about the ex-con.  About the mother.

I would never insist that an ex-con can't have completely gone straight and become that 'productive citizen' politian's talk about.  They totally can.  I've seen it done--I used to work with a guy who spent 7 years in jail for assault with intent (he was drunk, what can be said??) and I watched him go thru some of his adjustment process.  He'd been out of jail well over a year when I started working with him, and there were still plenty of issues that he was dealing with that made him hard to work with at times, and as well as not a very good boyfriend.  However, we had a boss who was fully committed to helping him straighten out his life, and he had a wonderful, patient girlfriend who believed in him and who stuck with him another 3 years before his head was straight enough to get married.   Last I heard, they had 2 kids, and he was finally back in college part-time.

This is why I KNOW that successfully adjusting to life outside of prison is a long, stressful process.  And if the time ISN'T taken, I don't see how the situation could possible end up well.  Particularly if on top of the stress of adjusting to the real world, you add the stress of the first year of marriage--and then PRESCHOOLERS???  This guy could be totally on the level, and that would still be way more stress than he should be exposed to, given his past.

Somebody needs to shake the MOTHER.  Now.  And really, really hard. 

[Nicole]

So, I used to do supervised visitations with people that had hurt/abused their children. I had one case where there were twins, and one was shaken to death....

Anyway...my point is that I've known lots of abusers, ex-cons, etc. I've worked closely with people on parenting skills and stress management, etc. 21 year old men are NOT the same as 37 year olds. I'm certainly not condoning his behavior. I'm just saying that I've worked with young guys and seen their responses to screaming babies.

Parenting classes can be amazing. Sometimes just knowing that its OK to put the baby in his crib and let him scream is like, REVOLUTIONARY for these guys. (and even some women) Like, that just hadn't ever occured to them.

I would still not allow the kids alone with the guy, but, I wouldn't really allow my kids alone with people I don't know....All I'm saying is that I do believe that people can be rehabilitated and that stress from kids on young guys can be pretty intense. But, proceed with caution.