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Saint Bernards => Saint Bernard General Discussions => : nickerbokker August 19, 2005, 08:48:50 PM
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well. we all know this is an ongoing battle, and that i haven't taken the freak to school yet....so aside from those two things....here are my stories.
angus....
he has always been a barker. he sees people, barks. sees animals, barks. thinks he sees people or animals, barks. it's usually a deep, loud and powerful bark with an empty threat on the end of it. well, today is a bit different.
earlier today i took cody on a walk to go do some laundry (i have to walk the apart now cuz angus was turning cody rotten). it was a fun walk, people played with him, and he ate it up. i got home, and was like, well i guess i have to take the devil on a walk to be a fair mom. i hook him up, and out we go. we pass like 10 groundskeepers, with rakes and blowers and carts, and angus doesn't make one peep! i was amazed! he did so well. we went into the office, and he barked a couple of times at the girls in there, then stopped and sat down. i was impressed. we walked home, he didn't make a noise.
i was all excited....i thought it had finally happened.
THEN, about 2 hours later, i opened the door to take him out again, and BAM...neighbor walking right by the door....it freaks angus out, or pisses him off, and he starts barking like MAD! the neighbor laughs (thank god), talks, goes upstairs...and we are off on our next adventure. we walk down the street, when another neighbor (who angus knows) walked towards us, and angus went crazy again. neighbor left.....and we started walking home. we were on the home stretch, when i heard it. a little voice saying something (i cant remember for sure so im making it up lol)..."what kinda dog is that?" and im telling him. well....angus is TERRIFIED. his tail is down, butt down, and barking like crazy. the kid rides his bike right up to angus, gets off, sticks out his hand....angus snaps and pulls away barking. the kid continues to talk and walk towards him with his hand out....and angus is getting more and more upset. i tell the kid that angus is very scared and very barky and now isn't the best time...and he continues. i held angus close...and thank god, cuz he lunged at the kid. the kid didn't really notice, cuz i had such a hold on him...but if i hadn't, the kid would have lost a hand or eye or something.
just now, i went out with cody....got to have kids pet him and play....take out angus, and he is barking at anything he thinks will eat us, including EVERY PLANT...and thereis one about every 4 feet. we take our walk..i am very annoyed at this point....we get almost home.....and BAM....a little unleashed ugly rat comes after us. angus's butt goes down and he runs behind me barking and barking...and the darned (your welcome jaba lol) dog kept coming towards him barking. i friggin tried to kick it, LIGHTLY lol, and missed. he barked for like 5 minutes after that for NO reason.
i am just at a loss. at first it was barking....now lunging? this isn't okay......im scared for us both....and im ready to kill him myself.
any help on a scared doggy who tries to eat everything?
thanks
nic
cody
%$#$^$$$%
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well it just so happens that i am a dog trainer at petsmart. How old is the dog?
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Samson was terrified of everything when I got him...All i could do was socialize him & keep exposing him to the things he was afraid of & I swear it is so much better!...When people try to approach Samson & I see he sin't comfortable I put my hand up & say loudly & firmly "STOP"!...It works everytime...I then explain that he is scared & he must be approached correctly...If he still balks I just say "he doesn't want to be petted...I'm sorry"...Just keep on taking him for walks...Eventu ally he will come around...& the barking...If he ahs a leash on give a firm tug when you see he is going to start to bark & say no barks!...Be consistant & timing is everything...S amson never barks when he ahs a leash on any more...When he si loose in the yard it's another story...lol!...Good luck Nicks!
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i do gyp! when i see his neck muscles tense up, i give him a yank and say no bark...he in turn, goes insane. no matter what i do, i couldstep on his head, and he would keep barking. what else ya got lol
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The obedience trainer in our class says that pups go thru a couple of terror phases usually , and get over them pretty quickly.. it's no biggie.
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well it just so happens that i am a dog trainer at petsmart. How old is the dog?
oh sorry....he is 9 months...and has been barking and scared for like 5 of them.....the whole actual attack thing is new as of today
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geeeezzeeeee I AM sorry Nicki...... It sounds like Wangus is really trying you. BUT my very first spontanous thought was that he is not mean, he is afraid and also protective and when being as afraid as he is now, but still has the urge to protect it is just making a big mess in his head.
First, I really really do believe that even if you think it is real pesky right now, he is trainable, he is only like 9 months old and has had a rocky start in life with his mom and all. Also though, until you have figured out how to train him and how to go about, and when and where to go to introduce him to things and let him get used to them rather than thinking he has to eat them. Maybe it would not be a bad idea to put a muzzle on him for now. NOT AS A TRAINING METHOD OR PUNISHMENT BUT FOR BOTH OF YOURS PROTECTION, if anything happens it could be devestating for both of you and I would just hate see that happen.
Then take him to the Trainer you spoke about, and also try and work with him at home like when he barks at plants, it is probably an insecurity issue, make him go to it, sniff it and when he does praise and give treat, do whatever it takes in order for him to get used to stuff, so he feels more secure with himself. Hopefully that will contribute to him relaxing in other situations also. And work on the alpha issue.
I will keep my fingers crossed but nickers..... I kinda feel a little worried about you all, Angus is getting bigger and older and he really needs to get his act straight now or it will only get harder. lol..... you can send him to either jabas or marits bootcamps hehe.
Give both your babies kisses
Marit
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geeeezzeeeee I AM sorry Nicki...... It sounds like Wangus is really trying you. BUT my very first spontanous thought was that he is not mean, he is afraid and also protective and when being as afraid as he is now, but still has the urge to protect it is just making a big mess in his head.
First, I really really do believe that even if you think it is real pesky right now, he is trainable, he is only like 9 months old and has had a rocky start in life with his mom and all. Also though, until you have figured out how to train him and how to go about, and when and where to go to introduce him to things and let him get used to them rather than thinking he has to eat them. Maybe it would not be a bad idea to put a muzzle on him for now. NOT AS A TRAINING METHOD OR PUNISHMENT BUT FOR BOTH OF YOURS PROTECTION, if anything happens it could be devestating for both of you and I would just hate see that happen.
Then take him to the Trainer you spoke about, and also try and work with him at home like when he barks at plants, it is probably an insecurity issue, make him go to it, sniff it and when he does praise and give treat, do whatever it takes in order for him to get used to stuff, so he feels more secure with himself. Hopefully that will contribute to him relaxing in other situations also. And work on the alpha issue.
I will keep my fingers crossed but nickers..... I kinda feel a little worried about you all, Angus is getting bigger and older and he really needs to get his act straight now or it will only get harder. lol..... you can send him to either jabas or marits bootcamps hehe.
Give both your babies kisses
Marit
i did take him to the plants today dude! i walked up to them, pet them told angus it was okay...and after like 6 miutes, he walked over and sniffed it....followed by BIG praise. he was okay with it...and continued to bark to everything else. imma try to get him in class within the next week or so. i wanted to wait till i was settled, and now that i am...off to class we go....to make mom feel ike crap lol.
im so annoyed marit!!!!!!!!!!
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I feel for you nickers... I really do. And I also know the funky feeling when you pet a plant lol...... With my very first dane, a harlequin rescue I was petting everything under the sun lol..... plants, doors, chairs, mailboxes, boots you name it and I petted it hehe
I truly think he wants to have control both over himself and the situation, when someone comes up to him, he gets worried and reacts in an anger way, rather than JUST being afraid. Like the first time you describe, when he was so good, all the things that happened was away from home, nothing really got him going if I make sense here. But second time, he saw someone basically infront if HIS door, that made him worried and excited then being in that mood, a lot of things that might not upset him if he was in the good mood he was earlier, will make him all mad and worried. So if you can get him to both see that most things are okay and nothing to be afraid of and also show him that his mommy is in control and he can leave it up to you and if he doesnt you will do the alpha bitch thing and put him in his place.
I totally understand it has to be both scary and aggrevating. But you have the biggest cheer group in the world you know. I know it is hard, but try not to look at the whole situation right now, I mean go to the class, battle one problem at the time and I am sure he will be good as new before you know it. Not saying it wont be a lot of work for you, it will be looooots of work and many many training sessions BUT it will all be worth it. :-*
Marit
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This is too bad but I think you will both be able to get it under control..you guys just moved too so maybe it is everything...b eing a big pup, the change... I think the muzzle thing is a good idea also until he can be trusted a little better....And get him into training classes...one of my trainer friends told me to have Willow sit for everything...i t just re-emphasizes who is in the alpha position...Wil low sits for pets, food, treats, at the door...wheneve r I can remember... Also my friend told me to always make sure if you are feeding the dogs around the same time you are eating ...that you eat 1st (also an alpha thing)... And the other thing - i thought was kind of weird - was to not let the dog see you cleaning up accidents (which I don't quite get...) but whatever.
Anyway...hope things get better. I think you can do it...you guys will get it together I know.
Timmie
ps my vet also said to increase vit C at times of stress...might help also
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Very good advice Timmy....... The sit thing I do here, and like it, especially for food or when to put leash on, good both for the alpha issue and it simply gets easier to deal with multiple dogs that way :D
I have never heard the cleaning up thing, but in a way it really does make sense. I mean if dogs are capable of thinking that way, we do look like servants when we clean up and that is not exactly boosing our alpha position lol......
Marit
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lol Marit - I know but now I have to go quietly when everyone is asleep to clean up the poop on the floor.... I am now sneaking around to clean up dog sh^&.....really not an alpha thing to do
I also make sure I feed the little dogs 1st..my male is definately next in charge then my female pom...then willow..so they get fed 1st...
in dog packs pups are the last to get anything once they are weaned..so I try and keep it kind of the same way.
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lmao hehe I can picture you sneaking around with plastic bag on one hand and a flash light in the other lol....... I guess there are other positions that could be concidered "more alpha" hehe but as long as the doggies dont see you, you should be fine hehe, never mind what your two legged kiddos think hahahahaha
A good rutin, to feed them and pet them or whatever reall in the order they are in rang. I really believe that will help establish the rank and hopefully avoid messy nasty fights.
marit
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i do gyp! when i see his neck muscles tense up, i give him a yank and say no bark...he in turn, goes insane. no matter what i do, i couldstep on his head, and he would keep barking. what else ya got lol
Got a cattle prod?...lol!...Seriously, I think he is just scared but unfortunatly that often leads to fear biting...I think the obidience classes are in order...They were a great help with Sammy's issues...Pleas e make sure to sit in on a class or two before you enroll Angus...There are some traing methods that are not about understanding your dog or a relationship with your dog but more about total dominance over your dog...I would rather if my dog obeyed me because he loved me & trusted & respected my role as alpha than to have him obey out of fear of me...&, in the mean time, keep exposing him to things he seems afraid of...I really think Wangus will be o.k. :)
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This may be totally irellavant.. but here goes. Our macaw Cookie Monster is scared of stuff a lot of times, like a new toy, a new appliance, or whatever.. usually something odd. Mel & I totally ignore Cookie and interact with the item .. whooping and hollering and acting like we are having the best of times, with our back turned to him. He can't stand it! and curiosity will get the best of him, fear or not, he will have to come check it out... and hey, its not so bad. Thats how we get over his fear stuff anyways, but hey he's a bird, so maybe wouldn't work the same. We just don't coddle him when he is afraid, so that his fear is not rewarded.
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I think one of the most important things NOT to do is soothe Angus when he is scared of something because he interprets it as praise, so you might as well just be telling him that is ok for him to behave in that manner.
My Dobie Ace has fear aggression I have to deal with it EVERYDAY, he is 5 yrs/old now and it has gotten better but it is definitely still there. I think the best thing to do is to start off small like maybe having just one thing that he is scared of at a time and work with him on that instead of a whole bunch of things at once. The problem is that if he is bombarded with too many things that is scared of all at once it is just too overwhelming for him to deal with it. This matter needs to be addressed asap or else he will turn to full out biting to deal with his stresses if he gets pushed to the limit.
This shouldn't be a problem for you Nicki...lol... . to stand really firm if someone wants to pet him and you tell them not to, they should respect that or get bitten, plain and simple. Ace has some genetic behavioural issues but I have learnt how to deal with them and it has come down to the fact that it is up to ME if he bites someone or not, I now know exactly how to prevent it by reading Ace's body language. I've done a great deal of reasearch and I have taken Ace to a behaviourist to deal with his problems.
I hope this helps and good luck with Angus :)
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This may be totally irellavant.. but here goes. Our macaw Cookie Monster is scared of stuff a lot of times, like a new toy, a new appliance, or whatever.. usually something odd. Mel & I totally ignore Cookie and interact with the item .. whooping and hollering and acting like we are having the best of times, with our back turned to him. He can't stand it! and curiosity will get the best of him, fear or not, he will have to come check it out... and hey, its not so bad. Thats how we get over his fear stuff anyways, but hey he's a bird, so maybe wouldn't work the same. We just don't coddle him when he is afraid, so that his fear is not rewarded.
Not irrelevent at all Brandon!....I hadn't thought of that last night..Both you & Jaime ar absolutely correct in not coddling the fear...I'd almsot forgotten that Samson's 2nd trainer also did a private consultation with Sam before we signed up for classes...Samm y was afraid of people...It took Paul 45 minutes that day to get anywhere near Sammy & that was in a small room...He kept shaking his head & saying "Sammy has issues"...lol...Anywa y, with this piece of advise & almost constant socialization, when Sam started the classes over a month later Paul couldn't believe he was the same dog!...When we came upon someone & Samson showed fear (which he allways did) I made a big production out of very happily & excititedly saying "Who is it Sam"? & approaching the person like it was no thing...I was to totally ignore Sam's fear as far as coddling goes but of coarse not force the issue either....When we walked out of there today & I tried it with people walking into the building it worked immediatly!...Now he didn't run up for a pet & ear scratch...lol. ...but he didn't bark or growl either...I had his interest...It was really amazing!...I couldn't wait to get out & try it & it definitly worked!
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Nicki,
Your dog is in a new place and a bit confused, and frightened, by the new sights and smells. He will come around, but in the mean time you need to be vigilant that he dooesn't harm anyone. Our big dogs can feel our apprehension, it travels down the lead, and they receive the wrong information, thinking they should protect us, rather than relax and go with the flow.
Tulsa acted the same way when we moved to our new digs, it took a couple of weeks to bring her around, but now she's fine. She still barks, and growls at strange sounds and activities outside, but that's what her instincts tell her to do, and I accept that.
Training, through positive reinforcement, is a lifetime commitment to our big dogs. They look to us for love and guidance, we look to them for love and companionship.
A dog is only as good as its' Master allows it to be.
That said, I think I'll have a drink. It's gotta be cocktail time somewhere!
John
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John.... That pic is sooooo great. Is she diving in the bucket or trying to grab it lol :D
Marit
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Lol - yep I have my poop picking up outfit..all in black with the flashlight..I look like the poop burgler...lmao ...
I do try and give praise and pets in pack order. When I come home the poms get more attention and Willow waits a minute...The sitting for everything does really help... We are going to start working on stay next
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Willow is such a good girl, I am sure she will get it. On a side note, how are your poms with willow or other big dogs for that matter? Malin who has been totally messed up by nickers.... and now want a small dog hehe has several breeds she is looking at. Mojos, poms, chinese crested, papillon, yorky and pug I have yet not decided if there will be a little dog or not, but have promised to at least look into the different breeds, what health issues they have, the disposition in general and how they tend to be with big dogs. So if you want to share I would appreciate :D
Marit
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Marit - everyone is getting along really good...they don't really play with her. Gunner is pushing 10 yrs old and has now tolerance for puppy B.S. So he growls etc but Willow is allowed to get closer to him without too much grief. Irie, my female 5 yr old pom, gets jealous over toys etc. She will put Willow in her place when she gets to rowdy, but they do occasionally run around in the back yard. I think it would be better if the poms were a little bit younger. I just watch close when Willow is in her playful puppy mood...but so far everyone is not to bad... And I think it will just keep getting better and better. But my daughter has decided we need another big dog so Willow will be able to play equally... You may be getting a little dog and I will be getting another big dog.... We are looking at a Newf (I love the Landseers) but not for 6 mos or more..just want to get Willow out of the small pup stage 1st... We will see..doesn't help that I love Newfies....
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I would so much rather be getting another big one lol..... I can already feel how worried Id be all the time, I mean what if Galahad or Hera decide to put a paw on its head just in play but their feet are probably heavier than a mojo :-\ They are good with the kittens, but sometimes when they want to play with them and do the "booom booom baaabooom" and almost stomp on them before they can hit the breaks I get so afraid that one day they would actually not be able to stop and land with both front feet on top of them. That would make for a very flat squeeky toy
Ohhhh I really hope she gets over this, and wants something big, like a mastiff or dane hehe
marit
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Lol - yep I have my poop picking up outfit..all in black with the flashlight..I look like the poop burgler...lmao ...
The Poop Ninja!!
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Little dogs i think are very good at letting big dogs know their boundries...mi ne snap and growl when they feel threatened. I like having little dogs too.... Maybe get one that is not so little... like one who weighs 15 lbs over one who weighs 3 lbs.... Poms are very very cute but have big tudes...they don't call them the "little kings" for nothing.
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Tulsa was playing with a Jack Russel today that was real 'Fiesty', he wanted to mate, she wanted to romp. It was funny watching him move away, AIR F@%KING, while she ran up and pushed him over with a big paw, then went submissive so he could chew on her.
I think a JR would be a great addition to a BIG DOG family.
And, yes Marit, Tulsa tossed the bucket into the air and then tried to dive through it!
Goofy Dog!
John
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You probably need more help with this issue than we can offer here.
You need to figure out a couple of things:
1) what sets him off
2) how close he has to get to these things to get the reaction.
Then you start by taking him ALMOST to the point where he will respond, but not quite. As soon as he shows interest, ears up, glance, stare, whatever, using the collar and leash, turn him directly away from what he was looking at, as you say AH AH. Ask him to do a simple command, such as sit, and give him a really good food reward.
Each time he focuses on the person, object, dog, or whatever, say AHAH, turn him physically away from it, ask for his attention, command him to sit, or some other simple command he knows, and reward him for doing it.
It takes a LOT of time, but dogs can be desensitized to things in this manner if you are consistent.
You are going to HAVE to learn how to tell people "STAY BACK THIS DOG BITES" and MEAN IT.
If someone asks to pet him, say NO, he is in training, and he WILL bite.
It might sound harsh or unfriendly, but it is much better than having your dog bite someone and end up as a statistic.
Best of luck with him, and I would strongly advise you to find a good trainer/behaviorist in your area to work with.
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As Jaimie has mentioned, it sounds like your dog is becoming fear aggressive. I am dealing with this problem myself, and have consulted with many experts. There are a few important things that you must understand. First is that you shouldn't be harsh or use choke chains etc. to try to correct this problem. Try not to yell or get overly upset when something sets him off. Dogs have two responses to something that they are afraid of: Fight(Bite) or Flight (Run away) He would probably prefer to run from something that he is afraid of, but if he is trapped such as being on a leash, than you are leaving him with only one option: Fight or Bite. You must assume at this time that he would bite someone so that you are extra careful during this retraining phase. It will take a combination of training and management at this point to help him. Please try to remember also to keep a cool head, because it will get on your nerves and upset you most certainly. A dog will read your stress and frustration and it will make him more stressed. Try to stay calm. OK-let's get down to business. Start to hand-feed your dog each meal for the next year while practicing obedience-this will establish your alpha role. Also, try to bring your dog for hard exercise (ie. fetch, or swimming) in a secluded or enclosed area (ie. empty ball field) where there aren't other dogs or people. When people come to your house, you may want to crate him, or put him in a room until the people are in and sitting down (until things are calm) then let him approach people on his own terms. You can also give visitors treats. You may want to incorporate a muzzle to be used during short periods of known stress just for protection. As far as introducing him to new situations, you must always give him space. With dogs, space is everything. Something that bothers him at 20 feet, may not bother him at 30 feet. Dogs have their own comfort distance for everything. Start just in your driveway (at the back) and always keep treats on hand- the goal is to have the dog react less and less to things over time as you are able to move closer and closer. Only work for about 15 minutes a day or your dog will become tired and irritable. For example, start in the back of your driveway, a good distance from the road, and when something passes that you know will stress him, try to get him to sit and if the distance is good than he won' t react and you can give a treat. If he reacts than you know you have to move further back. Once you know his comfort distance, then as he is calm you can move a bit closer step by step each day-take it slow. If he does react to something try to laugh and use your happy voice. If you yell or punish, he will just associate that "bike or person or dog" with him getting in trouble and it will be even harder to retrain. Always make light of it and move away from the stressor. Call him to you and get him doing some basic commands to get him more focused on you. A fear aggressive dog is not the same as a dominance aggressive dog, however, they do have some commonalities-such as the way the appear. A fear aggressive dog may appear to want to attack everything, but usually, they are afraid and are doing the only thing they know how to do. (On-leash fear aggression is very common) The last thing for now is that you probably should make a vet appointment to see if there are other underlying reasons for his behaviour. The vet may chose to use medication to help, but I was advised by vets specialized in aggression issues not to use anxiety and prozac type medications as it can remove the fear, and then you just have an aggressive dog without the fear inhibition. You can however try some bach flower remedies-these are natural flower essences that help people and pets with emotional problems. You probably should stop taking him for walks down the street for a while until the problem is more manageable. You also may want to refrain from any obedience class-it will not help your problem and can make things worse. Many trainers do not know how to deal with fear aggressive dogs. A class environment is very stressful. If you can find a knowledgeable trainer giving a small class (2-4 dogs) with much space then give it a try, but be careful he may not be ready for that yet. (Trust me I speak from experience) Work with him in a low stress environment, and if you must take him for walks down the street, try to move to the opposite side of the road (make an arc) from people and other dogs and bikes etc. (Don't let anyone approach-remember that a reaching hand is a threat to some dogs-and they will bite) You have to be alert and see the trigger before he does. Your dog is not a terrible dog who deserves to euthanized, he just needs some extra care and work on your part. I think you should get some books on fear aggression and reactivity in dogs, and consult a dog behaviorist specialized in aggression if you can.
This is a complicated problem to deal with, but can be done, with some understanding and lots of patience on your part. You have to understand that he may never be a "normal" dog, but can still live a happy life. It's worth a try. If you have any questions please let me know.
Good Luck.
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John..... Tulsa is a beauty, I used to have a GS, a male called Liston. I do love my giants but sometimes I miss having a dog to actually work with, okay lol.... that didnt come out right hehe. Hmmm just that working with a mastiff or a dane is very different from working with a GS, totally different type of dog, I enjoy both kinds but it still cant be helped that I miss the one kind I dont have right now. Did that make any sense..... ;D
Marit
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no marit it didn't
;)
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no marit it didn't
;)
lmao hehehe too bad..... now I might have to post a two pages long post about it, and I expect you to read it nickers hehe ;D
Marit
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I think a lot of billybooker's ideas are very sound. Using similar methods, Ranger has come a long way in his comfort level with meeting people he doesn't know, especially children.Â
I think if you were to work on the edge of Angus' threshold, as suggested, with a ton of treats, to position the presence of strangers as a positive thing for him, it certainly couldn't hurt!Â
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Billybookers has some great points. Rewards for good behavior is the best. How you deal with bad behavior is a bit different.
I'm fortunate, Tulsa doesn't want me out of her sight, so I can confine her and walk away. When I come back to her, she's eager to please, and has the intelligence to put it together.
As I said in another thread, she was leash aggresive, didn't like men, or children, would lunge and snap when on leash.
It took daily sessions that lasted several months to get her over these issues.
It doesn't happen in a day!
That's why we have so many dogs with GREAT potential in our shelters.
People with no knowledge of dogs expect them to be good dogs in a day.
It takes a lifetime of positive training to turn a dog into a companion.
It may look like 'work', but "Love" is another four letter word.
John
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Nickers - Sounds like you've gotten some very good advice here from everyone. I've also heard that by saying "It's okay," you may be inadvertently (wow that's a big word ;) ) praising them in a time of instability. Swissys are notorious for alerting their people when something is out of place or different. It comes from years of being bred as an all purpose dog, including protection of the family. For example, I moved the recycle bin to our back deck when we were having a party. Well, Ranger flipped! Look at the bin like "Wait a minute! That is SOOO not supposed to be there!" Then, he started barking at it. A good thing that we picked up from obedience class was "Go say Hello." Basically, you take a treat, place it in front of the object, then tell your pup, "Go Say Hello." So, the dog associates the object with something positive (the treat). We use this with objects, as well as people, although we've never had much trouble with Ranger with people.
Just a thought...mayb e it'll help?
Hang in there, girl! There is a fabulous dog lurking inside Wangus who deseperately wants to come out! :-*
Hugs,
Swissy