Big Paws Only Dog Forums
BPO Food Forum => Food Discussion & Information => : Saintgirl May 27, 2005, 06:20:39 AM
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I have noticed that a few people here have indicated that they use raised water and food dishes for their pups. We have only had Hutch for a year now and bloat was a, and still is, a big concern. The preventitive measures that they have for bloat are constatly changing. However, almost everything I read has said that raised dishes are a major factor in contributing towards bloat. I was just wondering how others here feel about this?
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I've always had either dobermans or danes, both of whom are prone to bloat. I started with the raised dishes when my first dobe got arthritis in his neck, and couldn't drop his head to eat without pain, so now I just use them because I'm used to it, and it keeps the brats from carrying around their bowls, and dumping food or water all over. I haven't had any bloat with either method of feeding..KNOCK ON WOOD!!!!! I think that there are many factors involved in bloat, and I doubt that any one thing can absolutely cause or prevent it.
Just my thought.
Stella
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I've heard conflicting reports as well. :-\ On one hand, raised dishes are good for our giant dogs when it comes to their joints - but on the other hand, we've heard they attribute to bloat. I haven't used a raised bowl yet, but I don't know if I should switch either. Can anyone else share their experience? Thanks!
-Tina
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I love my raised dish, I think it looks better, it was handmade by my ex. It also relieves my back becaue I don't have to bend over. I also don't have to look for the bowl since they can't carry it off. The bowls don't move while they eat, I don't trip over it. I have nothing but good to say about raised feeders. But I think it is like anything else, it is up to your opinion and preference. I haven't had my guys get bloat but I try to follow all of the other guidelines too.
I'll take a picture so you guys can see this raised feeder I am so in love with. I'm pathetic, I know.
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This whole issue of bloat scares the ---- out of me. I don't use raised bowls, I did concider because it looks like it would be more comfortable for them but my breeder said no, I do value her advice. Just like with horses its natural for them to eat at ground level, like they would graze in the field. The local newspaper "Newsday" even had a story about bloat last week, when we were at the vets office there was a dog in surgery for bloat, 3 weeks ago Apache's sire bloated. Im really starting to freak. I feed moisten/softened kibble & say my prayers.
Carolyn
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I just read a new report saying that the excersize thing may not be as potentially dangerous as they once thought too. It is so hard to tell with all of the conflicting information out there. Thanks everyone for all of your replies.
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I have always fed Oreo from raised food and water bowls. He had bloat and torsion 3 years ago and I can honestly say I don't believe there is any correlation between dish height and bloat. Bloat is more unpredictable than the weather.
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Has anyone done the preventative surgery for bloat(where the Dr. tacks the stomach to ??? so it can't flip or torsion) when their dog was spayed/neutered? How has it worked?
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They tacked Oreo AFTER his bloat and torsion surgery. We haven't had any problems since. I understand that dogs who had bloat before are more susceptible to have it reoccur. So they usually tack the stomach while they are in there. I can't speak for getting it done early as prevention, but I imagine it is worth looking into if there is a history in the dog's family/bloodline.
Jason
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When I first started to have giant dogs about 25 years ago, they said certain things they said would help to prevent the bloat, and from time to time they change it. I used to feed in raised when I had danes, with Hera and the other ones not, simply because they are not as tall, when Galahad gets bigger I guess I will though. I have lately heard the same things that they now think the raised dish is not doing much good, but I tend to take all the reports and studies with a grain of salt, because they change so often. Things they say have an impact on bloat is the food dish, exersise before and after feeding, stress, not feed too much at a time rather spread it out on two or three times a day, be sure to give enough water with food, so not too much moisture has to be taken from the body in order to digest the kibbles. But I think one real big factor if genetics, certain lines seem to tend to be more prone to bloat than others. So personally I think it is a combination of a bunch of things. Mind you one thing that seems to be real important is to not let their bellies get totally empty inbetween meals, I read a study that stated that as good as all the dogs that come in with bloat has an empty stomach. But it is a very complicated topic thats for sure.
Marit
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There has been much written about bloat, but the most credible study remains the Purdue study. If you have not seen it, definitely get a hold of it online. The purdue study found that raised bowls do not help with bloat, but "could" enable the large chested dog to drink/eat faster and intake more air given its position to the bowl. Several have suggested that making the dog bend over for its food slows down air intake. This does not mean, nor do I believe should be taken as, raised bowls "cause" bloat. Just a warning to watch for.
It should be understood that it does not help prevent bloat however. A far bigger culprit to the cause of bloat is genetic pre-diposition (is it in the dog's lines within 3 generations), eating dry food without moisture, and eating small sized bits (as in small kibble), one bulk meal per day (instead of two), activity following after a meal (1-2 hours) and stress.
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Think of it this way.
The wild canids your dog evolved from do not every eat from a raised area.
They eat and drink from the ground with head lowered.
THIS is the natural eating posture for a dog.
It may look uncomfortable to US, but it is the NATURAL way for a dog.
If they have an item that takes a longer time to eat, they generally lie down, (like a good bone to chew).
Here is the link to the Purdue info
http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/bloat.htm
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I haven't read anything about raised dishes preventing bloat, but it does prevent them from regurgitating there food and water. My brother dane will get sick unless she eats from a raised dish, I think it is from all the air she inhales frim bending her neck that far down. We have the dogs water dish raised but I think that I will have to raise it more because Dilbert has been getting sick.
Nina
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I think the raised dishes are great for the joints in the neck...as for whether it caises bloat or not....I have read as many of the studies I could find and it seems that bloat is truely unpredictable. I am going to get the pastropexy when I have Willow spayed - why not try and reduce the risk of torsion. The surgery will not prevent bloat though. I think if you are prepared it will help alot. Keep gas-x or phazyme (sp) on hand. Also you can have a bloat kit...actually keep a nasogastric tube on hand to insert to help relieve the pressure build up. Ask the vet to show you how to put it in....I am a nurse and do it with humans all the time...its not that hard. so I am just going to keep on on hand here to place if there is an emergency. Just helps with the time factor on getting the baby to the vets office.
Timmie
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Think of it this way.
The wild canids your dog evolved from do not every eat from a raised area.
They eat and drink from the ground with head lowered.
THIS is the natural eating posture for a dog.
It may look uncomfortable to US, but it is the NATURAL way for a dog.
If they have an item that takes a longer time to eat, they generally lie down, (like a good bone to chew).
Here is the link to the Purdue info
http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/bloat.htm
I am not being argumentative here at all...Please know this when I say that whenever I hear what wolfs or our dog's wild anscestors did in realation to how we should care for our dogs I always wonder what the average life expectancy was for the said wolfs & anscestors. :-\ The whole bloat issue is confusing to say the least!...As far as raised dog dishes I don't use them & that does make sense that it's not a natural way for them to eat...I have a friend with an elderly Akita/Lab mix that had thought about using them because his old bones are achey...So he wouldn't have to stoop over so much to eat.
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Uh OH! forgot to post that petsmart has the raised dishes that you can adjust as the dog gets taller. I think like 20 bucks.
gypsy - I thought about that too - what they do in the wild...not eat on a raised anything....I guess it all comes down to what you feel comfortable with and what works for your dog.
Timmie
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Life expectancy is still not high for any wild canid. Or for any dog that runs at large for that matter.
The wild ones don't have parasite control, and they don't eat nearly the quality of food that any raw fed domestic dog gets. On the other hand, they are not assaulted with vaccines containing foreign DNA, either. LOL
The POINT is, that your dog, even tho he's been domesticated for some time, is still identical inside to his wild counterparts.
:D
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I know some people that have never taken there dogs to the vet and there dogs lived well into there teens, both dogs were shepards. And they fed them Raw diets.
I have always taken my animals to the vets and always will.
Nina
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My new pup, Willow, is raw fed since being weaned and no vaccines for 3 generations. myself and my vet think it is great!!!!
Timmie
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I'm wondering if there is a link with raw diets and the life span of dogs, do these dogs live longer healthier lives???
Nina
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Actually, the Purdue Bloat study is scientifically flawed.
Dr. Glickman's "opinion" that raised dishes cause bloat is based on the CORRELATION he found between the number of danes who were fed high and the number that bloated. These numbers were self-reported by Dane owners. A CORRELATION was found because MOST dane owners feed raised, whether it be for health or comfort reasons. This does not prove a CAUSATIVE relationship. Giant breed dogs are more prone to bloat because of their anatomy, it is incidental that giant breeds are usually fed from raised feeders.
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GreatDanz,
I agree totally! Here's a funny correlation study I was sent in an email. Sadly I don't know who to credit it to, but it does make you think about Correlation Studies! ;D
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Fun correlations with Bread
• More than 98 percent of convicted felons are bread users.
• Fully HALF of all children who grow up in bread-consuming households score below average on standardized tests.
• More than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed within 24 hours of eating bread.
• Bread has been proven to be addictive. Subjects deprived of bread and given only water to drink begged for bread after as little as two days.
• In the 18th century, when virtually all bread was baked in the home, the average life expectancy was less than 50 years; infant mortality rates were unacceptably high; many
women died in childbirth; and diseases such as typhoid, yellow fever, and influenza ravaged
whole nations.
• Bread is made from a substance called ‘dough’. It has been proven that as little as one pound of dough can be used to suffocate a mouse. The average American eats more than that in one month!
• primitive tribal societies that have no bread exhibit a low incidence of cancer, Alzheimer’s,Parkinson’s disease, and osteoporosis.
• Bread is often a ‘gateway’ food item, leading the user to ‘harder’ items such as butter, jelly,peanut butter, and even cold cuts.
• Bread has been proven to absorb water. Since the human body is more than 90 percent water,
it follows that eating bread could lead to your body being taken over by this absorptive food product, turning you into a soggy, gooey bread-pudding person.
• New born babies can choke on bread.
• Bread is baked at temperatures as high as 400 degrees Fahrenheit! That kind of heat can kill an adult in less than one minute.
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Funniness aside, I do feed Tenchi from a raised platform. Otherwise he looks like a giraffe drinking. He has too many joint/leg issues as it is, so I'm not making it worse for him. I know that wild dogs don't eat from raised feeders, but then again how many wild dogs are there that are 39" at the withers?
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OMG, that is so funny!!!! I have a 39" dane too, my fawn Java. Do you give a joint supplement? My guess is that Tenchi is just as straight in the joints as Java is. I just started Flexicose a few weeks ago, and it has helped tremendously!
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Yes we do. I give Tench Hydrajoint 1x a day. He does really great on it! I've heard of Flexicose, but haven't found it anywhere in person.
Tenchi's problem isn't being to straight, he has really bowed back legs. He also pulled his ACL when he was around 1yr old. He was in a brace for a couple months to prevent it from tearing totally. He runs like the wind now, but he has a wonky gait sometimes.
Is Mickey your white boy? He's gorgeous! Is he deaf like Tenchi or no? I love both of your boys looks, are they from Euro lines?
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I order Flexicose online from their web site, that's the only place I have found it.
Mickey is my white, he can hear a bit, he just has a hard time telling which direction a sound is coming from. He also doesn't see well in low light. Mickey is out of Michaeldane, I haven't been able to find any Euros in his pedigree, but he sure does look like one! He's somewhere btwn 36" and 37", and he weighs over 190 lbs already. He'll turn two in November. Java is all American, but he's got a huge head and the most amazing lips! He's lanky at 165 lbs.