i need advice really bad about scout

[schelmischekitty]

ok, so hubby is about ready to "rehome scout."  twice in two days has she ALMOST bitten tristan in the face.  she also snapped at his face the end of last week, but i counted it as a fluke b/c she wasn't paying attention and i thought it might have been the shock value of him touching her side.  the only thing that's caught her in time is us yelling her name.  it's really frustrating b/c the guy said she was "great with kids!"  each time it's the same trigger.  tristan touching her.  even if she's looking at him, and knows he's there, she'll growl and snap, always at his face.   it doesn't matter if he grabs her or not, yesterday he simply sat up against her, and she snapped at his face.  i checked her from head to toe to make sure she didn't have anything wrong with her to make her act snappy, nothing.  she gets her exercise, and naturally she's not hungry so i know that's not to culprit of why she's grouchy.  i think it might be a dominance issue b/c he's so much smaller than her, she's always walking over him (but not standing over him, or kicking him, etc), which i make her stop, but he's too small to get to do commands.  i'm not sure how to assert dominance from a 1 y/o.    any suggestions on how to correct this behavior??

[VdogLover]

How long have you had her?

[schelmischekitty]

i've had her a few weeks now, not long at all.  tristan has a two work vocabulary right now.  literally.  he just turned one in november, so he really isn't old enough to do her food.  he still eats it.  i seperate them when the dogs are eating, so i make sure the dogs aren't being tormented with the dogs, and the kids are NEVER alone with her, this is really easy since i'm a stay at home mom.  her thyroids were tested in october.  i got her records, that's when she was spayed, and had the thyroid test, unfortunately it doesn't say why they were tested. 

[schelmischekitty]

i'll try that tonight, and see how it works.  hopefully it will work!

[bluskygirl]

I can relate to this and how frustrating it is. I had to rehome my last dog becuase of this and it was heartbreaking.  Brayden is older now, and better able to "help" with the dog, but when we first got Pepper, I had the same problems.  Here's an idea... if he can't really scoop out the food, maybe he can hold the bowl for you while you scoop out the food.  Then you can direct Scout to sit and wait and direct Tristan to place the bowl of food down.  Literally, one of Brayden's first words was "Release"!  It is funny becuase even though his release is like an entirely different language, both my dogs have understood what it meant.  I hope you find a way to make things work for your family and Scout. I know it's a tough situation when they're too young to "hold their own".  Good luck,

Angeleen

[VdogLover]

Since thyroid tests are not just a norm it was ran for a reason. I would call her old vet and see what they can tell you.
  I am weighing in that some of her actions are due to stress. With rescue dogs we tell people that the dogs real personality will not show for up to a month. Think of all the changes she has had....Multido g home, babies, new owners, etc....... I am betting she did not come in and take over the Alpha dog in role from the others.
  With that said I personally will not keep a dog who so much as look cross eyed at my kids...its a deal breaker for me nor would I encourage anyone who adopted from us to do so without professional help.

[CalistogaPyr]

I agree with the idea of including your child in the process of feeding.  Having the dog sit before she's fed & having him "give" her the food establishes him as higher ranked than her.  Also, because she's new to your home, she's still trying to figure out how things work.  I also recommend working with a good, positive reinforcement trainer in your area.  Building trust with a rescue dog (or any dog) is CRUCIAL!!!
Make sure you keep an eye on your own energy, becuase I know that if Bo senses that I"m nervous at all about something in the house, she immediately increases her guarding behavior & becomes more assertive (not towards me, but the thing she's supposed to be afraid of).  I also know that when I've sepearated her from someone that I thought might be afraid of her, she has become more fearful of that person, since I think she assumes that I"m keeping her away because they're dangerous!  I could totally be anthropomorphi sing, but hey, I guess I'm ok with that!! 
GOOD LUCK!
Jenn & Bo

[Gevaudan_Jo]

i dont have any advice, because we dont have kids. and Zeros child agressive (well, when there is more than two he gets nervous and i dont totally trust him, not really agression...). but whatever you do, i hope it works out

[MagicM3]

I agree with the food thing whatever way you need to do it,just so scout see's the food coming from Tristan.even it's both of you.

Also another thing you could do is make some rules about Tristan like he goes first into every room of your home.
If you walk scout take Tristan in the stroller and have scout walk behind him.So that Tristan is the leader and scout is the follower.
You could also make Tristan's room off limits to scout at least for now.

create an invisible bubble around him that scout can't cross unless you say so,in very specific circumstances.

Don't give up this can still work,

Tricia and the fur kids

[mynameislola]

If that were my dog and I was determined to keep it, it would be muzzled any time the child was in the same area.  I am a trained "worst case scenerio" planner and this set up looks really bad to me.

If something happened to your kid, because you already know this is a problem, it can't be considered accidental.  It would be negligent.  A bite could turn into hospital mandated dog attack reporting, evaluations by child protective services, and even jail time.

Eeek.

[schelmischekitty]

If that were my dog and I was determined to keep it, it would be muzzled any time the child was in the same area.

with this, i've noticed whenever my dogs are muzzled, they freak.  they get more nervous / upset and then i have NO idea what they'll do b/c they're scared.  since i already know her trigger, i can watch for it.  last night went well, i let tristan give her treats on a sit because the food bowl thing didn't work.  tristan ate the dog food.  today scout is checking on tristan, for food i guess, and making no effort to be hateful.  i think she might have been to a trainer already b/c now that we've been doing the sit=treat with tristan she goes up to him and sits.  maybe it is just because things are still new.  she really acts like she likes kids, she always gives them kisses.  i'm not really sure why she did this all of a sudden.  my old friend michelle had a dane who had a chemical imbalance that caused something kinda like bipolar behavior, does anyone know if this would be tested for in the thyroid tests??  i'll have to call the old vet today and ask them why the tests were done, i'm really curious why they did them. 

[sc.trojans]

This is SO not dominance in any way and I would be very concerned and scared if you were to approach it as such. This is discomfort/lack of trust.

There is nothing you have described that is "dominance" related - this dominance thing has become so exagerated that we are all left thinking that this is how dogs think.  Animal behavior science has proven this false.

Everything you have described is basic "I don't trust or like" that small erratic and abrupt thing that comes at me or near me.  The dog isn't wrong - small children ARE erratic and abrupt and your child has already done something to make him think he cant trust him close to him - usually it is as simple as falling down/over etc. Your dog isn't comfortable - plain and simple.

I would never leave my child with this dog - in fact children in general should never be unattended around dogs for this reason.  I would never allow my child to be closer to this dog than I was or in other words, in between me and the dog - period.  Your dog has given you and your child every warning that he doesn't like him close and has done so properly - with a verbal warning - rather than biting. If he had wanted to bite - he would have and this is a great sign, but you shouldn't push it.  His warnings are a good sign and should be respected. If all you do is discipline the verbal warning, and do not respect it - that is, move your child away from him - you will teach him not to warn and the next step is worse.  The more this dog feels he is alone to protect himself from this child - mom and dad won't help - the more inclined he will be to do something to your child.

It is fine to work with him to try to teach greater tolerance and bonding with the child - feeding is fine - but this should not be trusted as the means to then leave your child close to this dog.  Just because he enjoys taking food from your child, does not mean he will feel any safer or more comfortable having your child approach him when he is lying down.

I am sorry someone just told you that "he is good with kids".  It kills me when people do this as this tells you nothing.  Define "kid" - a kid can be 16, or 10 or 2 and I can assure you that no dog interprets a 2 year old the same way as a 10 year old.

The only reliable key to having your dog become comfortable with your child is training your child, and allowing time for him to grow up.  Teach your child not to approach the dog - ever - without your assistance. He shouldn't reach out, grab on, balance himself on him etc.  When he is old enough that he is not erratic - your dog will likely tolerate him fine. In the meantime, the child should be on someone's lap or close to them and the dog invited to approach him - give food in this scenario and reward the dog for approaching the child.  Not just feeding the dog. Teach the child to only bring his hand up underhanded, at the dog's chest and only pet there.  Never come from behind or over handed at the dog. Eventually, you may be able to start sitting with the dog, and have the child approach from the front - reward the dog with food here as well for allowing the approach.

That's the idea....just be sure to reward the behaviors you want - not just punish what you dont want.  And use food as a reward for it, not just a child standing in front of him and feeding.

Good luck!

[schelmischekitty]

the reason i say it's dominance is because scout makes it a point to stand over tristan, and look at him to see what he's going to do.  just like dogs do when they're asserting dominance over each other.  also, since tristan still crawls sometimes, from what i understand from a FEW trainers that we've called and asked, scout may see him as a "small dog" and is trying to work her way UP the dominance ladder, starting with the smallest / last in the "chain" since she is new.  basically, what all the trainers we've talked with and even the one we worked with (who is a saint and got us through axle's problems), told me that she's testing not only tristan but also what she can get away with as far as me and hubby go.

[LibbyP]

Acouple red flags come up for me I am not here to judge in any way 
You say the owner told you she was 'good with children', how come she has had 7 homes then?

Did any of the previous owners have these same problems and that is why she was re-homed?
Did they have children that were not kind to her and that is why she is weary of them OR has she ever been in a home with them on a full time basis and she just doesn't know how to take them?
She is still 'new' to your home and everything that goes with it, she might have come from a home with very little activity and excitment and all this is very stressful to her, her true nature and colours won't start to come out until she is more comfortable with her surroundings she & you are in the 'honeymoon state'.
We got Libby when she was 3.5 and had never been around children on a full time basis, she found EVERYTHING very stressful esp my youngest,who was 1.5 at the time. I made it a point not to carry him around her and when ever she would let him walk by her he gave her yummy treats that she only got from him, when she came in from going potty he was at the door with treat in hand ready,someone might say this will teach her to 'take' anything out of his hands whenever she feels like it ~we've never had that problem and like someone already suggested: when out for a walk in the stroller she walked behind the him. We did this for along time, but she had no troubles with my oldest 3.5 but both of my children are very soft spoken for children and respectful of our animals and their space, she has no problems with my children or other children coming into our home now.
I would never put a muzzle on when the children are around, and (IMO) that would stress Scout even more and she'd have it in her mind that whenever these little 'things' are around I get 'punished' instead you want her to think they are the best 'things' ever. She will feed of your body language.
You are very lucky she warned with a growl, because everything is at face level.
I would also have a kid free zone that if Scout has had enough she can get away and be safe.
We were also aware that this was a risk ~ taking in an adult, and I commend you for that.

Not sure if this helped or not ~ crossing my fingers that you are able to work this out the best for everyone ~ Kim

[schelmischekitty]

scouts homes

1- breeder
2- first home who i guess wasn't ready and sent her to rescue about a month after they got her at 7 or 8 wks old
3- rescue (who told the guy i got her from about the previous owners) who adopted out to #4
4- guy i got her from gave her away because of his pending move, he said he couldn't take 3 danes, and was a workaholic
5- a home who didn't work out b/c she is a very needy dog who needs someone to be home more than a few hours a day
6- BACK to the guy who i got her from, who wanted to rehome her for the same reason as originally.
7- me

scouts big flaw is that she is VERY clingy to her people, and has to be in the same room as them and MUST be crated when you leave, she doesn't do well being by herself for longer than about 2 or 3 hours.  i don't know if any of the other homes had children, but i do know the guy who i got her from had cousins who came over very frequently who are my kids age, and mentioned that he had never had a problem.  believe me when i say i DO understand that she is still learning things, but i don't want her to get away with things that may cause her or my kids injuries, which is why i originally asked for advice.  i'd rather know how to properly nip it in the butt before it escalates into a bigger problem later b/c i gave her a "break" for being new.  i don't think that she's stressed.  she's eating / drinking well, and is playful.  she doesn't cower, or hide, nothing, just occasionally nipping / growl when tristan comes around her.  when we first got her i could tell she was stressed b/c she would just lay there, with her eyes big and not move, she didn't eat or drink well, and was very sudden / jerky when she did move, almost like she was just trying to go ahead and get the "getting there" over with.  she doesn't act nippy towards aiden, but aiden has also been working on telling her sit, down for treats, and he is also a lot taller, and i've noticed when she tries to stand over him he will push her to the side and tell her "no scout."  although i really do try my hardest to keep her from doing this to tristan, she does still sneak it occasionally for a second before i can make her get out from over him.  i DEFINITELY want to try making her walk behind the stroller, but with it being cold in the afternoons when hubby gets off, and tristan being sick, i'm going to have to wait a week or so to let him get better first.  we do already have kid free zones, the dogs are allowed outside whenever they want, also they're allowed in the bedroom where the kids aren't, and once they're on the couch we keep the kids away from them, and under NO circumstances are the kids allowed to climb on / hit or be rough in ANY way towards the dogs (except axle who you can tell loves it and sheeba occasionally plays with them by nudging their side and running ha ha, diesel also occasionally "allows" tristan to sit with him and just walks off when he doesn't want to be messed with)  we also have dog free zones.  no dogs in the kids bedrooms, or play room.  this way the kids can also get a break and it won't stress them, being our smallest dog is over 30 lbs heavier than our  3 y/o and axle is over 100lbs heavier.  we knew there would be a few kinks to work out taking in an older dane puppy, and i will work through it, no questions asked.  i'm just really not sure what to do to nip it.  the dogs have (in the past week) learned that they are NOT allowed on the kitchen floor when we are eating (we have carpet and then a "divider" piece to go to vinyl (?? i guess that's what it is) flooring, and they get an "out" whenever even a toe nail hits the kitchen floor.  the past two days have even been an improvement in how she's acting towards tristan, with just the kitchen rule, and "trying" to get tristan to feed her.  that really isn't working though, so we are going to try treats instead so maybe tristan won't be so tempted to eat it!  thanks for all the advice!

p.s.-  as i mentioned before, muzzles aren't an option, i would walk out of a vet's office if they even suggested one, my dogs do NOT like them, and it stresses everyone out.