Big Paws Only Dog Forums
Rottweilers => Rottweiler Discussions => : slickerk July 03, 2005, 04:18:14 AM
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well, guys... I am on my 3rd day with maybe 5 hours of sleep, if you add it all up together. Are you sure it is worth it? :-\
I got into a huge fight with the hubby about 2 this morning over her. He is a bit cranky. The crate isn't working. She will cry for 45 minutes straight and never lay down in there. She wants to be outside, but I can't sleep outside, so thats a no-go.
goodness, goodness... I am delirious at this point, so I am gonna go search the internet for some ideas.
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when our shepard was a 'pup in training', we used to keep his crate by the bed, and i used to hang my fingers on the cage. he would gently gnaw on my fingers until he went to sleep. he never did get totally used to the crate, but that at least gave me a few extra hours of sleep.
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i did the same thing, except i did it on the kitchen floor with my first dog since he wasn't allowed upstairs. cody would cry and howl and scream bloody murder, not for 45 minutes, but for hours. so i wuld lay on the kitchen floor with blankets and stick my fingers in the crate as well.....he would chew on the also until he fell asleep. i found that since i was so tired, i didnt care if he ripped off my fingers, just so he would shut up. angus was a different story. at 5 weeks old, he was sleeping in my bed with me. maybe that was wrong, but he was super cute. then i found, when i left and had to crate him, he would cry, but i wasn't there to listen...hehe, only the neighbors!
i suggest doing that. they want to feel you and touch you and know you are there. and i promise the baby will go to sleep!
back to work!
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Having crate trained MANY puppies, here are some suggestions and hints
1) if you allow her to scream in the crate and run your life right now, it will be that way from now on. Get a good magazine, and roll it up and tie it with rubber bands. Use it to THUMP the outside of the crate to interrupt her fussing. Verbally praise when the pup is quiet. Correct ALL vocalizing when you put the pup in the crate.
2) keep the crate where the puppy can see you in the day time, and right beside your bed at night. Correct all vocalizations when the pup is put into the crate
3) a tired puppy is a good puppy. Make sure the pup gets adequate exercise. No food after 8pm, and I usually remove water at about this time as well when I am trying to crate train puppies.
4) at 6 weeks she may indeed not be able to make it through the entire night. Try making a last trip out around 11pm, and you should be able to make it to 6am.
5) Be sure you are going outside with the pup, and reward all outdoor potty work. Name the functions. As in, say "go pee pee" while she is urinating, and "go poop" or whatever, when she is defecating. If you will go with her, and name functions AS they are happening, and food reward afterwards, she will very soon potty on your command. Confine and/or supervise CAREFULLY at all times when she is in the house. It is your job to have her where she needs to be when she needs to eliminate. IT's not her job to tell you, and any mistakes are absolutely YOUR fault, and not hers. She is a tiny baby. She needs you to take care of her and have her outside when it's time to go. Do not expect much consistency or control until 10 weeks or so.
Bottom line, she is tiny and cute now. Within a year she will be a large dog who is likely to have strong territorial instincts. If she is typical, she will challenge you at least a couple of times as she is growing up. It pays to be ready, and to raise puppies with clear rules and guidelines so that they can understand what is expected of them.
This article can help you to understand how things work in the dog world, and can help you elimininate the possibility of dominance issues in the future. I urge you to print it out and keep it handy.
http://www.chowwelfare.com/cciw/alpha.htm
If you have not already done so, my puppy training article covers lots of issues and can help you raise a well adjusted good canine citizen. Feel free to print it out as well....
http://www.animalforum.com/dpuppy101.htm
Good luck with her, the first few weeks can be quite stressful for all, but she will settle in soon if you just keep at it.
:D
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I know the answer!...I know the answer!..lol...O.k... We crate trained Samson with little to no problems but there were people in Samson's puppy classes that had no such luck...Here is the advise Sam's trainer used...You should make the crate a puppy friendly place so he thinks good things happen when he goes in there...Put toys he likes in the crate & hide treats under a blanket or some such thing for him to find...Make a game of the crate when he doesn't have to be in it like tossing in treats & toys for him to chase after & bring back out...If he goes in at all, even if he brings the wanted item back out right away, praise him to high Heaven!...Put him in the crate with the hidden treats & toys during the day for short periods of time so he knows that going in doesn't mean locked up for long periods of time....Whatev er you do DO NOT let him out while he is whining or giving any unwanted behaivor...Let him out as soon as he is calm...Otherwi se, just like a child, he will learn that unwanted behaivor gets him the results he wants & he will continue to use this unwanted behaivor because it pays off...He needs to learn that acceptable behaivor pays off...I know this worked with my sister's demon Collie pup...Eventual ly he should go in his crate on his own just to get away from things...like his bedroom...Good luck!
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slickerk -
I hope things are better for you today. Having a pup that young is very challenging. Not only that, but a rottweiler, in my opinion, takes a headstrong person.
I do not intend to discourage you. I am worried, though, because I have seen, time and again, acquaintances who have gone against my advice to not get a rottie pup. It starts out fine - they are extremely excited, but it only takes a short time before they are frustrated and questioning their decision. I do not think it helps that your significant other wanted the little thing, and is now grumpy about it. A person has to remain positive with puppies. They can't help it! It's not her fault that she was taken away from her mama too soon, or that she has to pee so frequently, or that she is lonely for her littermates while in her crate. Helping her grow up to be civil, social and obedient is our job as humans.
In my opinion, it is our responsibility .
Sometimes folks find out rottweilers are far more work than they imagined. They see their friend's rottie who has spent two years in obedience training and think it is a piece of cake. I don't think rotties are for everyone who "wants" one. There are many wrong reasons to want to have a rottie. But, there are many, many, many good reasons to stick with it and not let the little pup down.
I hope I do not sound disappointing, or mean. That is not my intention. I just worry about the pup and it doesn't sound like things are getting off to a good start. It sounds as if you are on your own and hubby is not really receptive to making the commitment necessary to train the pup. That is unfortunate, and you are very patient...
My friend called all excited the other day. She said she had something really important to give me. I was surprised, because she does not call that often and what did she want to give me "right now"?
Turns out she went to a the post office and found a magnet on the ground that says, "Sleep with me, sleep with my dogs!"
And, she knew there was not a magnet better to describe my situation. My dogs are number one. It does not matter what challenges we face, I will do whatever I can. Granted, they are trained, etc. and that took many years of hard work.
Just this passed year we added little Betti to our household, so now we have three. Betti had many, many issues, from extreme fear issues to anal gland and ear infections. At first, Greta (my old girl) was interacting with her fine, but not for long.
There is nothing I can do about this rift between Betti and Greta. In fact, Greta wants to KILL Betti. People always chuckle when I say that...they do not take it seriously. They always have great advice, such as, "Have you ever tried just letting them go at it?"
Such excellent advice!
My bf has sustained bites THREE times now breaking up Greta's choke hold. Granted, it is actually his fault that these three fights occurred in the first place, since he pushes the bar and somehow keeps missing the fact that Greta WILL kill Betti. I hope that, after last night, with the puncture wounds he received in his wrist and right hand, he will stop monkeying around and keep them separated. I was sooooooo mad at him! I am hoping he learned his lesson THIS TIME.
I am very staunch about this. I will never give up any of my dogs, but do what it takes to maintain harmony amongst them. My bf will have to deal with it. If he is careless and they get hurt, he will pay for it.
I guess I am hard-headed, but they say that with rotties it takes a firm, but patient person. I have undying patience for these wonderful "fur babies"...I will do whatever I have to in order to ensure their safety.
I hope that you will hang in there and make the commitments necessary to raise little Felony into one big, happy girl. I am sure you will find years of the most fulfilling dog-human relationship you've ever known. Rotties are that way...they grow so attached to you and will follow you throughout every room in your house to make sure you are OK. They are clowns, twisting and writhing and jumping with rubber bones in their mouths, darting back and forth in the yard, watching television, lying their ever-soft heads on your lap, looking at you with big, wet endearing eyes.
Their little lives depend on us humanoids for sustenance, but also for companionship as we are the PACK LEADER and as the pack leader it is our job to teach them, take the place of the mother and littermates and be a good role model. That is a need!
And, slickerk, you can come here and ask anything. There are so many here who will stick by you and encourage you. Many of us can share similar stories. Please don't give up!
Have you had a talk with hubby? I hope he is someone you can talk to about this. I think you are doing your best right now. Hang in there. :)
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I agee with a lot of what has been said so far. If you keep the crate in the bedroom where she can see you it will help limit the crying. She is crying because she is scared, and it's a lot scarier for a baby to wake up in an unfamiliar empty room than one that has people you know in it. You really do have to expect to take her out every few hours (cutting off water before bed time will help, but her bladder just isn't developed enough to hold it). But as far as the other fear crying, just showing her that you are next to the crate will comfort her. I completely disagree with what was said about 'correcting' her with a thud on the crate - she is crying for your attention and negetive attention is still attention, plus I of the school of thought that positive reinforcement for good behaviors will get you farther in training than relying on punishment for bad ones. Along the same lines, gypsy was totally right when she said that you should give lots of treats and praise for going in the crate, and to not let them out of the crate when they are exhibiting bad behavior.
Also, I recently saw this 'snuggle pal' for pups and I plan to get one for my next puppy's crate at nighttime. I think you should check it out, especially since your pup is so you and left her litter early. Click here to see it (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002ZFPVC/ref=wl_it_dp/102-2403868-9869748?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=IN7UHPPX70YTA&v=glance&colid=1W8S0RZ5P34H)
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Moonlit, You were not being mean or discouraging.. .You simply supplied facts, solutions, & understanding. ..I got Samson when he was 14 weeks old & he had never been inside...It was very frustrating!...& he was my very 1st dog also!...Also, being a Great Pyr he tended to (& still tends to) be strong willed, stubborn, & independent... I questioned myself over & over "what in the h*ll was I thinking"...I can't count the number of times I swore he was going back to the breeder & then, of coarse, felt differently after a decent nights sleep...Luckil y, my friend Ann was like you & could point me in the right direction on what to do & offer encouragment when I'd "HAD IT"!...Samson will be 1 yr. old this month & he is an ABSOLUTE joy!!...In fact I seriously can't imagine life without him!...I have a hubby who is gone 5 days a week driving semi & though he had no problem taking Sammy out & helping clean up after him, I had a heck of a time trying to expalin that he needed to help discipline him!...Same as with our skin kids...he wanted to be the fun guy when he was home to make up for not being here the rest of the week...As you can well imagine, Samson figured this our right quick & man did he work it!...Finally, after watching, many episodes of "The Dog Whisperer" with him he got on board with the discipline & Sammy is coming around nicely...My kids are involved in his training too...What I am saying is that Ibelieve it takes everyone in the house to make it work & make for a happy well adjusted dog...Again, just like children...B.t .w., & Ijust thought of this...I wouldn't smack a rolled up magazine or newspaper against the crate with a pup this young...He is still on his 'puppy pass" as young pups should be...Try ignoring him instead...any interaction when he is whining in the crate will reinforce the unwanted behaivor...Aga in, good luck to you!...I am certainly pulling for you!
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Your not being discouraging. thanks for the advice guys. I have been sleeping on the couch so that I can be close to the door to get her outside. I will try bringing the crate in with me tonight. It is funny though, because she is sleeping in it right now. But she won't at night! She has been doing ok otherwise. You mentioned letting her get to me and that Rotties aren't for everyone. She is being pretty good right now about her 'place'. She doesn't enter the house until after I do, and she listens if I tell her to stop biting. I am working on 'sit' with her right now. Although I haven't incorporated treats... I have heard that this will make her think that she is doing what I say because she knows she is getting something for it, instead of doing it because I tell her to. I know that I have to keep my 'place' to avoid future problems.
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It sounds as if you are making progress! ;D As far as treats go (& what worked for me) was that they were a means to an end...You have to supply plenty of praise with the treats & then when the pup is doing well consistantly simply phase the treats out until you are giving less treats along with the praise..Maybe gives treats every other & then ever 3rd & so on & so forth time that the pup does what he is wanted to & then eventually you can all but phase out the treats...Samso n's trainers both recommended this...Then the dog associates wanted behaivor with good things happening.
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I completely disagree with what was said about 'correcting' her with a thud on the crate - she is crying for your attention and negetive attention is still attention, plus I of the school of thought that positive reinforcement for good behaviors will get you farther in training than relying on punishment for bad ones.
If you will notice I did instruct slickerk to reward the puppy when it is silent.
I wonder how many Rottweiler puppies you have raised personally? If puppies are not instructed how to remain quiet in the crate from the very beginning, this can lead to all sort of other behaviors, including separation anxiety, destructive chewing, and etc.
The crate thump is to INTERRUPT the puppy's crying. It is to startle the puppy into a second of silence, during which you praise and food reward the puppy as you say "quiet".
If you are consistent, and timely with the THUMP, the food reward, the QUIET command, and the verbal praise, most puppies learn in DAYS what quiet means, and how to earn their food rewards.
Taking control of the situation proactively, and taking the initiative to i nterrupt the UNdesired behavior so that you can REWARD the DESIRED behavior demonstrates your leadership to the puppy in a nonviolent way. Early establishment of good habits, with strong leadership on your part, and firm consistent fair rules for the puppy to follow comforts the puppy since he knows he has a leader to look to and follow.
Early establishment of good habits and behaviors that reinforce your leadership position with the puppy will avoid dominance issues later in the life of the dog.
It is the supreme demonstration of kindness and responsible ownership to be a strong respectable consistent and fair leader to your dog.
You may choose not to crate thump, and to just let a puppy scream until he decides to stop.
I've done it both ways, and I REALLY prefer the THUMP method.
I should add, and should have also told the poster in my original post, that the least correction possible to interrupt a behavior should be used on all dogs, but especially puppies. If a verbal "AH AH!" will interrupt the crying, that should be used. If not, the crate thump generally does work. The food reward and verbal praise is just as important if not more so, than the initial thump to interrupt.
This method has worked well for me for many years, however, there are numerous paths to the same destination when training dogs and raising puppies. What works for one, may not be the right method for another.
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i use only positive trianing and i have very good results..you have to remember that pup is young and everything thats done to her now will mold her for life and also dogs are pack animals they hate to be isolated from you (her pack now)i wish you all the luck and i'm sure it will work out...i would suggest a good book like the dog listener or the other end of the leash......... ..............
ann
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I completely disagree with what was said about 'correcting' her with a thud on the crate - she is crying for your attention and negetive attention is still attention, plus I of the school of thought that positive reinforcement for good behaviors will get you farther in training than relying on punishment for bad ones.
If you will notice I did instruct slickerk to reward the puppy when it is silent.
I wonder how many Rottweiler puppies you have raised personally? If puppies are not instructed how to remain quiet in the crate from the very beginning, this can lead to all sort of other behaviors, including separation anxiety, destructive chewing, and etc.
The crate thump is to INTERRUPT the puppy's crying. It is to startle the puppy into a second of silence, during which you praise and food reward the puppy as you say "quiet".
If you are consistent, and timely with the THUMP, the food reward, the QUIET command, and the verbal praise, most puppies learn in DAYS what quiet means, and how to earn their food rewards.
Taking control of the situation proactively, and taking the initiative to i nterrupt the UNdesired behavior so that you can REWARD the DESIRED behavior demonstrates your leadership to the puppy in a nonviolent way. Early establishment of good habits, with strong leadership on your part, and firm consistent fair rules for the puppy to follow comforts the puppy since he knows he has a leader to look to and follow.
Early establishment of good habits and behaviors that reinforce your leadership position with the puppy will avoid dominance issues later in the life of the dog.
It is the supreme demonstration of kindness and responsible ownership to be a strong respectable consistent and fair leader to your dog.
You may choose not to crate thump, and to just let a puppy scream until he decides to stop.
I've done it both ways, and I REALLY prefer the THUMP method.
I should add, and should have also told the poster in my original post, that the least correction possible to interrupt a behavior should be used on all dogs, but especially puppies. If a verbal "AH AH!" will interrupt the crying, that should be used. If not, the crate thump generally does work. The food reward and verbal praise is just as important if not more so, than the initial thump to interrupt.
This method has worked well for me for many years, however, there are numerous paths to the same destination when training dogs and raising puppies. What works for one, may not be the right method for another.
well. lol. i am getting red while i read this, but i will keep it nice tina.
next time your baby is crying.....gra b two pots, sneak up on it, and smash them together right in its face....when it stops crying, throw it a jelly belly.
i COMPLETELY disagree with what you said. scaring the living crap out of something isnt cool.
i dont care how many dogs you have raised, i really dont. and i dont care if they eat people or if they are sweet.....this method is *#&$^% up. youre lucky im not your dog, because in a year when i outweighed you, i would give you a little surprise of your own.
if you have two methods:
1-to sleep by the puppy to comfort it, and give it treats to chew on and make them feel comfortable in their bed OR
2-to scare the crap out of it until it shuts up.....why on earth would you choose to be mean to it?
thats sad. i feel bad for puppies who have their beds slammed on. the bed is a "safe, comfortable DEN" for them.....its not a place of punishment, OR something they should be scared will eat them.
i have family members with rotties, and they have NEVER had to slam the bed. nor have other family members with other breeds of dog.
i think its sad sad sad.
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Ok, well I just have to add in that I heard a cute advertisement on the radio the other day about something called Comfort Zone (I think?). They say it's a plug-in thing that emits a pheromone like the one a mother dog emits when she has puppies. Supposedly it reminds the pup of being safe with the mother and helps calm them down. I haven't used it or even seen it in the store but the ad made it sound like something nice to check out. They said you can buy it at Petsmart and other pet stores. Worth a shot, eh? Plug that thing in close to the crate at night, and who knows?
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Bruno the brindle puppy is 5 months old. I never crate trainied any of my dogs. I put a huge box next to the bed and lay my arm in it initially. They usually lay on my hand and fall asleep. They did get me up every few hours initially. I would pick them up and carry them down the stairs and outside to make sure that they didn't have any accidents in the house, of course they always had a few accidents. He has not had any accidents since he was 3.5 months old. When he did it was becasue he was playing with the larger dogs and I didn't get to him in time to get him out. Now he holds for at least 5 to 6 hours a night and I get a little more sleep. It does get better.
Gerry
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ooh,I didn't mean to start an argument about the whole subject. :-\
Good news though! And thanks to everyone (again) for your support and advice. I did what you suggested and I actually got some sleep last night.
YAH!!!
She went into the crate at 11 by herself and layed down, she woke up at 1 and pottied on the kitchen floor (my fault, I didn;t get there in time). After that I took the crate into the living room with me and she slept till between 4:30 and 5 and whined, I ran her outside and she went to the bathroom, I brought her back in and put her back in there and she went back to sleep till 7. (she was hungry then). So... I slept, my husband slept and all is right in Kristy's world again. ;D
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i'm glad to hear you got some sleep, i'm sure everything will be fine and don't worry about starting an argument thier are some topics that just turn out that way..thier are so many ways to train dogs the old way is alot of negitive ways but thank god as we study a dogs mind more we learn how to work with them on thier level so good luck keep us posted .............. ......
ann
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Great news!...A decent nights sleep always did me wonders in my attitude in Samson's real puppy days!...You just wait!...One day you will be able to relax & then will realize that you got through it o.k....Of coarse, you will then miss her being a puppy. :-\
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I am glad things are going well for you. That is the best news. It really seems you have a handle on the pup's behavior. Cudos to you!
As far as argument is concerned. I guess I missed that. We all interpret things in our own way. I think that thumping the crate with a rolled up newspaper is not meant to "scare the heck" out of the pup, but to interrupt the whining and get her attention so she will observe that moment of silence during which a treat can be given to her for her calmness. When Greta and Lou were younger and they got into things I would swat a rolled up paper on the table, wall, etc. and they learned that this was my display of dominance...le tting them know that I did not approve of what they were doing. It worked very well and it by no means caused them to fear me, or rolled up papers either. It was merely for the sound, to interrupt what they were doing and have them take notice of my displeasure. It made life simpler, and we never even do that now. We don't have to.
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Try this. I have been having problems with Grace not sleeping past 3 am lately. Last night I took her for a mile long walk at 10 pm. and I took her bed and rubbed my scent on it and we got to sleep through the night.
I doubt it 's the walk that wore her out since she's so high energy...and I'm positive the bed that smelled like mama did the trick. :)
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thanks for the advice. We have gotten through the past two nights with ease. I had to get up only twice. And potty training during the day has been good too! (knock on wood ;) )