Please explain docked tails to me

[nickerbokker]

i would welcome it. 

i had a whole huge post here, and erased it.  youre welcome.

[pndlake]

Comeon Nicks, love your posts, its ok.

[shangrila]

Can you imagine how many people here would protest if a bill was introduced to prohibit docking dog's tails and ears?  

It's funny you mention that. When I was looking at the akc website so I could directly quote their policy on docking, I saw that California recently tried to enact a bill to outlaw docking and cropping. As you could guess, the AKC went up in arms. Because of lobbying, the bill is stuck in committee. Click here to see the related press releases on the akc website.

[mastiffmommy]

Okay, I love a good discussion. BUT the talk about our freedom in the US and how that would be taken away if it became illegal to dock and crup I do not agree with. It is not a matter of our freedom, to me it is a matter of what is best for the dogs, what about their side being heard. Europe is way ahead of USA when it comes to animal right issues, and to me like I said it is not a matter about OUR rights. If that is how the thoughts go we could go and talk about a lot of things that are concidered cruelty to animals here and why we dont have the right to do that. In Europe it is concidered cruelty to animals to dock and crop simple as that.

Marit

[pndlake]

Marit, is that why sheep's tails in Europe are not docked - because it is illegal?  I feel that certain animals are healthier because of cropping and the pain they may feel is a lot better than infections a problems resulting from not being cropped. As an example, sheep naturally thrive in mountainous regions.  Their feet are in the wild kept short because they are always walking on rocks.  People put them in pastures so now their feet become infected because the hooves grow around the pads and they need to be clipped by hand.  Is that cruel?  It hurts. A horrible death by infection is stopped.  Do we need a law that says we can't do that.   

I personally do not like dog cropping, however, in most cases such as tails, it is a minor adjustment that does little pain to a pup even if a few inside vases are all that is saved.  I know you can't compare sheep to dogs but it is still the same thing.  What I hate and I mean HATE is the government telling me what I can and cannot do.  I kick and fight all the way to jail. 

Peggy

[mastiffmommy]

I dont agree with you that that would be the same thing. Yes sheep does need to be maintained, just like horses, donkeys or whatever animal we make domestic and take out of their natural environment. BUT of course when you have sheep they need to have their feet trimmed the same way you clip their wool. trimming feet does not hurt and can therefor not be compared to docking tails or ears, it is not a sugical procedure and the hoof has absolutely no nervs similar to our nails, it would hurt if they were dont too far the same way our nails. I used to breed horses and they need their hoofs trimmed every 6 weeks. And of course people trim the sheeps feet, if not THAT would be concidered cruelty, so really the way I see it, you cant compare a trimming of feet which to me is a normal grooming to docking and crupping. should anyone keep sheep and not take care of feet that is cruelty the same way as it would be if they didnt feed or didnt give clean areas to sleep or clipped the wool or took care of any medical or basic need the animal has.

Marit

[sobe]

I clip my dogs nails and my cats nails too so that they don't get too long. I clip my own nails too.
I don't think this can be compared to cropping of ears and docking tails of dogs though. I think with a dog it's most often done for two reasons : 1 because the end result  is how people think the dog looks naturally and 2 because of the AKC  and other clubs like it.

One other point I'd like to bring up is that a dog uses it's tail as part of it's way to communicate . The tail is not just there as an afterthought, there is a purpose for it.
There simply are way too many people out there who look for a certain dog and want it to have the look that they are used to. They don't stop and think that this is not the natural way this dog looks and that it's body has to be altered in order to achieve this . To me it's the same thing as the binding of feet that used to be done, the lengthening of necks in Napal, eye surgeries in parts of Asia,taking out ribs in order to achieve that thin waist, etc  etc.  It has to do with a fashion statement and the way we are taught things have to look.
Unfortunately most people don't think about things, they just assume this is how it is .
Thankfully there are a whole lot of those practises that have been stopped , but then there are others such as cropping and docking that continue. That is part of why I am so happy to see it discussed here. At is making us all think and that is a good thing.

Another thing that astounds me ( though off topic but still just as amazing to me) is how many people out there think that a small mixed breed is actually a breed ( think Maltipoo for example).

[pndlake]

ok I agree trimming probably doesnt hurt much.  Should it be against the law to circumcise our male human babies?  I am sure it hurts.  Should the government tell us in their great "wisdom"what we should do about that? They are always "right" about everything else.    

Marit, I love your knowledge and welcome all that you have posted that is beneficial but still - is that why sheep's tails are not cropped in Europe - is that against the law???

I do not personally agree with cropping tails or clipping ears but 1) I respect the rights of others to do so and 2)I am an animal lover but also feel that there are other issues in humanity that are more important than cropping or clipping.

Peggy

[mastiffmommy]

I totally agree with you Sobe....... The reason today is cosmetic and to follow the breed standard. In a lot of countries in Europe when they banned docking and cropping, they gave the breeders of those breeds a certain amount of years to learn how the breeding lines they use were in concern to the ear and tail issue. To say that it makes it easier for breeders to dock, is to me to say that, it is one less thing having to take into concideration when you breed. All breeds with uncropped tails and ears have always had to weigh the look, length and how the tail is carried into their breeding program. And as with other physical defects that would make a dog not suitable for breeding so does an incorrect tail or incorrect ears. Just that when they are being altered the breeders never had to pay any attention to if the ears were too long, too short, crocked or not. Tail too short or long or carried over back when should not be.

I have sympathy for the docked tails on for say boxers though, they have the hard hard tails that easily make for a "happy tail" but the danes for example do not have docked tails and theirs are just as bad. Mostly you get used to dealing with those tails but sometimes it goes bad and you have to amputate a bit off.

And yes it may be easier to keep clean, but with having dogs or any other animal for that matter, grooming comes with the ownership.

Marit

[sobe]

"ok I agree trimming probably doesnt hurt much.  Should it be against the law to circumcise our male human babies?  I am sure it hurts.  Should the government tell us in their great "wisdom"what we should do about that? They are always "right" about everything else"

I don't think that Government has anything to do with that nor that laws are needed in either case. What I do think is that all persons need to think about these things and not just have them done because 'everyone does it or has it' and that is unfortunately why most of these things happen. People assume there is a reason for it and don't stop and question it.
If there is a personal reason for human circumcision or for dog cropping or docking , then make that decision individually and make sure pain meds are used.
 one should always think this through and not just chose a breed for the way we've always been told it's supposed to look.
There is pain involved , whether we assume it's momentary pain or whether in the case of ears it's pretty significant pain.  I don't believe a dog needs to go through that. They are one of the most trusting, loving souls on this earth and to do this to them just so we think they look better or fit the perception we have of that specific breed is not enough reason to me.
There are a lot of things I would like to change in the way animals are treated , this is one of them.
 

[pndlake]

"I don't think the government has anything to do with that nor that laws are needed in either case"

Right Sobe, I agree but attempts are being made for the government to become involved.  In Europe, it is illegal, in America there are bills being introduced and so forth and so on.  There is no end to it.  I agree with you, I don't want silicone breast implants but my neighbor does.  I dont crop my dog's tail because I do not feel it is necessary, not because the government told me I couldn't.

[moonlitcroatia]

ok since a male child does not remember what it felt like to be circumcised then how do we know what pain, if any, happened.  Babies cry all the time anyway.  Common sense will tell you that it DID hurt no matter what the age.  Even unborn children feel pain, that has been proven.  To me we must assume it hurts to dock an animal's tail. It probably does not hurt for long, but it does hurt.  A puppy still likes people after they do that to them.  

  I wonder why in Europe it is against the law to dock tails or ears?  In other areas Europeans seem to have more freedoms than us.  Can you imagine how many people here would protest if a bill was introduced to prohibit docking dog's tails and ears?  

Peggy

That's because American freedom is only pseudo-freedom.  We are pacified with material wealth.  This is not true freedom as that is merely the ability to be happy without having so many things and with the realization that doing the good thing is the key to contentment.  There are so many people who will never be content and they just do not care.  I think that is why Europe regulates them...they need regulation or they will be spoiled...like Americans. Always wanting their own way, having a tantrum over things like cable television with no regard for the strife in the "real" world.  Always agreeing with whatever the "authorities" say and voting "yes" out of fear and ignorance.

 

[moonlitcroatia]

Okay, I love a good discussion. BUT the talk about our freedom in the US and how that would be taken away if it became illegal to dock and crup I do not agree with. It is not a matter of our freedom, to me it is a matter of what is best for the dogs, what about their side being heard. Europe is way ahead of USA when it comes to animal right issues, and to me like I said it is not a matter about OUR rights. If that is how the thoughts go we could go and talk about a lot of things that are concidered cruelty to animals here and why we dont have the right to do that. In Europe it is concidered cruelty to animals to dock and crop simple as that.

Marit

Exactly!

[moonlitcroatia]

I clip my dogs nails and my cats nails too so that they don't get too long. I clip my own nails too.
I don't think this can be compared to cropping of ears and docking tails of dogs though. I think with a dog it's most often done for two reasons : 1 because the end result  is how people think the dog looks naturally and 2 because of the AKC  and other clubs like it.

One other point I'd like to bring up is that a dog uses it's tail as part of it's way to communicate . The tail is not just there as an afterthought, there is a purpose for it.
There simply are way too many people out there who look for a certain dog and want it to have the look that they are used to. They don't stop and think that this is not the natural way this dog looks and that it's body has to be altered in order to achieve this . To me it's the same thing as the binding of feet that used to be done, the lengthening of necks in Napal, eye surgeries in parts of Asia,taking out ribs in order to achieve that thin waist, etc  etc.  It has to do with a fashion statement and the way we are taught things have to look.
Unfortunately most people don't think about things, they just assume this is how it is .
Thankfully there are a whole lot of those practises that have been stopped , but then there are others such as cropping and docking that continue. That is part of why I am so happy to see it discussed here. At is making us all think and that is a good thing.

Another thing that astounds me ( though off topic but still just as amazing to me) is how many people out there think that a small mixed breed is actually a breed ( think Maltipoo for example).

I read once that the hill tribe women in Burma have neck rings so that if their husbands suspect they are unfaithful the neck rings may be removed, thus breaking the woman's neck.  Lovely, isn't it?  Just like female circumcision in Africa.  A lot of that has to do with us humans "making" other living creatures the way we want them to be.  We are a very controlling and manipulative species and often do not even understand ourselves very well. 

[moonlitcroatia]

I clip my dogs nails and my cats nails too so that they don't get too long. I clip my own nails too.
I don't think this can be compared to cropping of ears and docking tails of dogs though. I think with a dog it's most often done for two reasons : 1 because the end result  is how people think the dog looks naturally and 2 because of the AKC  and other clubs like it.

One other point I'd like to bring up is that a dog uses it's tail as part of it's way to communicate . The tail is not just there as an afterthought, there is a purpose for it.
There simply are way too many people out there who look for a certain dog and want it to have the look that they are used to. They don't stop and think that this is not the natural way this dog looks and that it's body has to be altered in order to achieve this . To me it's the same thing as the binding of feet that used to be done, the lengthening of necks in Napal, eye surgeries in parts of Asia,taking out ribs in order to achieve that thin waist, etc  etc.  It has to do with a fashion statement and the way we are taught things have to look.
Unfortunately most people don't think about things, they just assume this is how it is .
Thankfully there are a whole lot of those practises that have been stopped , but then there are others such as cropping and docking that continue. That is part of why I am so happy to see it discussed here. At is making us all think and that is a good thing.

Another thing that astounds me ( though off topic but still just as amazing to me) is how many people out there think that a small mixed breed is actually a breed ( think Maltipoo for example).

There are a lot of the Maltipoos and Labradoodles here in Spotucky...whe re I live.  It is a mentality.  Comes with the demographic.  It's a way to make money in order to obtain more material things.  Forget knowledge.  Who cares about that?  Opinion is the hip thing in pseudo-free cultures these days.

I was watching a comedian the other day make fun of the letters our soldiers send home from Iraq in comparison to a letter a 16-year old soldier would have sent home during the civil war.  The difference in linguistic ability is astounding.  The polite manner of addressing family and issues back then seemed like Emily Post...compare d to the lackadaisical attitudes of societies today.

I'm going to shut up now!  I promise!  But, as always, this was fun!