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BPO Medical Forum => Medical Conditions & Diseases => : mama23+pyrs2 March 22, 2007, 03:05:55 AM
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I had posted some about my issues with these dogs yesterday on some food posts and today I've really had it and don't know what I'm doing wrong. Yesterday they were almost normal and this morning were back to nastiness. I'm SO completely frustrated, I've been dealing with this loose stool problem since the day I picked them up to take them home. :'( That was 5 weeks ago. Maybe I'm impatient but I'm getting hopeless and I get to clean up the yard not hubby so he's not nearly as irked as I am.
I wrote my breeder when I got home and discovered this issue and she told me it was a combination of the wormer they were on and the wet food she gave it to them in, so I thought okay..temporar y issue. So I started giving some yogurt after trying canned pumpkin- which they refused to even try. Nothing helped. Then I had to start transitioning them off of the baggie of food she gave us to a better food I had bought for them- which probably made bad matters worse. The vet told me that if it didn't resolve itself in the next couple days, she'd give them something for it but I never called in, I just watched it and gave it some more time. She thought it was the food transition and not anything else- eventhough the first bowel movement they had the night we got home was runny and no transitioning had happened- whatever.
A couple weeks later on the new food- a large breed puppy food by Solid Gold, still having the issue so I decide to start mixing in some Candiae lamb and rice I had here, because I was going to eventually put them on something lower protein and I decided on that one- it contains enzymes and probiotics so I thought it could help if anything- so that went fine, nothing got worse, maybe a tad better. So they've been on that mix of food for a few weeks now and we still aren't getting anywhere. I started giving them carrots when I discovered how much they liked them and that is like a quick fix- but not a permanent solution so I know things are still abnormal somewhere. At their last visit they found some bacteria in one's sample and treated them both for 5 days and still I see no change a week after the meds are done.
I can tell you that ANYTHING you give these dogs, seems to bother them. If we give them some meat as a treat- BAD idea. They go from loose to like projectile. Hubby thought he was real bright bringing home some of those pup peroni treats- I was mad when he did cause they're crappy but it's the only money he's spent on these dogs so I think he was happy or something- BAD idea. Then when told to bring home some new bones, he brings home a couple of those Busy Bone things that are out- again BAD idea. So we are still going from bad on a daily basis to terrible if they have anything extra. They do seem to do okay on the normal biscuits I give them, natural ones..or the liver treats they get. I also can't get them to chew on any kind of bone unless it's flavored like something or only the expensive greenies or edibles (of course). They love these porkhide bones and only the crunchy rawhide bones but they go through them in minutes. If those are making things worse I don't know but I can't get them to chew on many things, they are terribly picky. But now he knows not to buy them anything, cause he won't get it right.
HELP HELP HELP. I'm so depressed about it. I'm going to switch to straight Canidae starting today since they've been on a half and half mix for weeks, maybe the other food is just not for them, I'm just guessing and I'm desperate. :(
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if we can't get our dogs to eat pumpkin one day, we mix peanut butter in with it so they smell and taste the peanut butter but get the pumpkin. it typically works. i'd also cut out treats 100% until their tummy gets straight. i know some treats can cause them to have an upset tummy.
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but they won't touch it! they aren't crazy about their food as it is, they don't eat much and putting pumpkin in it will just send them on a food strike. :( i guess they won't starve themselves so if they go w/out eating it wouldn't be for long.
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if we can't get our dogs to eat pumpkin one day, we mix peanut butter in with it so they smell and taste the peanut butter but get the pumpkin. it typically works.
okay i can try that then. but will it last? i mean won't it just go back to runny after the pumpkin goes through their system? i just don't get what the problem is from to begin with since it's been going on so long. :-\
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we add a little bit every 2nd or 3rd day to diesel's (he gets really nervous and it sends his tummy on a blow out) and it keeps him pretty normal.
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you can also try Pepto Bismol every 3 - 4 hours. (You will need a syringe... good luck!) liquid pink Pepto 1/2 to a tsp each time, for every 10lbs of dog. not sure if that would help long run though. have you tried fasting your pups for 24 hours? it helps give their tummy a break
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ah, okay didn't know about the pepto. i haven't tried fasting them but that could be good too. maybe after that they'd actually like to eat haha. perhaps i'll try that tomorrow then.
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Are you totally set on the Candidae? Elli has a very sensitive tummy, but her poops improved a ton when Holly switched her to Innova. She still has an occasional ugly booty blast, but 99% of the time her poops look great.
Do your dogs like ice cubes? You may want to try freezing the pumpkin and giving it to them like a treat. I can even get Kiden, the picky princess, to eat pumpkin that way. If that doesn't work, you could get some of that unflavored Metamucil to add to their food. The pumpkin works because of the fiber content, so the Metamucial would do the same thing, without the pumpkin flavor.
well i've done SOOO much long research on foods and i did finally settle on the Canidae because of the ingredients and that it's human grade and i also can find it here- well at one place, and because it's very low protein- 21% and i was told to not go over 23%. the Canidae people told me the lamb and rice is super easy to digest also (after i had already gotten it)..so i thought that would be good with their issue. strangely enough i didn't even know there was a large breed innova until i was reading some posts here yesterday. i know the regular adult is way high but the large breed is of course lower, still not as low as the Canidae- so I don't know. i guess i wanted to give the Canidae a chance and because they haven't been strictly on it I'm not sure how they'll do on it. If it doesn't agree with them, I'm of course open to change though.
i don't know if they like ice cubes, hmm..hadn't tried that yet, so thanks for another suggestion! :)
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Hi,
Try some other ruffages too ( i use oatmeal, microwave it for 40 seconds and add it to their food) and don't give up so quickly, your pups are conditioning YOU, (gee if we don't eat she'll get us something else) like you said, they won't starve themselves.
Maybe try smaller meals more often and leave it till they eat.
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Hi,
Try some other ruffages too ( i use oatmeal, microwave it for 40 seconds and add it to their food) and don't give up so quickly, your pups are conditioning YOU, (gee if we don't eat she'll get us something else) like you said, they won't starve themselves.
Maybe try smaller meals more often and leave it till they eat.
thanks for another good idea, i'll remember all these. and yes, they are conditioning me hahah.. my kids don't get away with that well, not often i guess i shouldn't let them. :P
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First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry you are having so much trouble with you puppies bellies. Hang in there and trust me, you're going to get a lot of great advice and support here. Also you should know that as pumpkin is an excellent remedy for runny poo and it does work both way's. So, maybe a table spoon once a day each if possible for a short period or until you see a positive change. Mixing with the peanut butter is very clever... I would for sure ease up on any kind of treat. At least until you have their stool under control. Yogurt... Some dogs can be lactose intolerant so maybe consider not using yogurt if you have not seen any positive results. oh, and giving a puppy pepto is a great idea and it works well but can also be a challenge. My vet suggested if pepto was proving to be too challenging to give then what works well for this is imodium pills and you wont have to worry if they spit a pill out on the floor as it wont stain the carpet pink. The switching of the food screams to me that this could be a problem for the puppies bellies as it would for any puppy. It's a tricky process and the foods you are using are really good foods. So slow and steady with the food switch. You are correct in that they will not starve themselves. I like to think they know best when it comes to whether or not they are hungry or also if they have a belly ache which could be a deterrent from food. When Gracie has runny poo we always just cut back on the food and give the pumpkin. The beauty of pumpkin too is that it also makes them feel full. We cut the food back to let whatever is upsetting her belly get out of her system as fast as possible. I would keep an eye on them and just make sure there is plenty of water available. I wish you luck and send those puppies lots love and get well wishes. And keep checking back because again, this place is so wonderful and has helped me out (especially regarding this very topic) in soooooo many ways. Good luck!
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Just my own opinion but i would say you are trying way too many things. I would start by picking a food you want them to be on....the lamb and rice or canidae, whichever you choose. Go get it. Either switch them completely over cold turkey (their little tummies are upset anyway) or keep them on the food you are using and start mixing in the canidae. Don't give them ANY treats!! If you feel the need to give them something, give them some canidae kibbles. Their tummies will settle down. Then we you've got that down you can try giving them treats made by candidae. Right now you have way too many options and it would be hard to say what they are reacting to. Yoghurt will cause a lot of dogs to have loose stools. Greenies i would advoid completely.... has caused deaths. I personally will get Bully sticks instead of rawhide, and real marrow bones instead of the manufactured ones that contain a lot of plastics and wheats... but that is completely up to you. If you get the marrow bones (once tummies are settled) you can scrape out most of the marrow so they can gradually build up to having the whole thing......a lot safer than the rawhides. Just warning you, the bully sticks stink but are throughly enjoyed. Just my thoughts, Ann.
Well it sounds like a lot but it was over a 5 week period. The yogurt I tried because my breeder suggested it to clear up the tummy issues with the probitotics. The lamb and rice food IS the Canidae, that's the formula. They've only been on 2 foods since I've had them, I was given a small amount of their old food (crappy food) when I took them home. The only reason they've even been on 2 foods is because I had 40 lbs of Solid Gold here waiting for them, then after the fact, my breeder suggested I not go over 23% protein which that food is. So in the meantime I researched and found a lower protein food I could get them on eventually- and stick to. It just sounds a lot more complicated than it is. They have been on a mix of the Canidae for weeks.
As far as treats, they do get the Candiae biscuits and they've tried some blue dog bakery ones and seem to do well on both. I've seen the bully sticks but never tried them because I hadn't seen them in quanity and like I say, they chew through things in no time. They've only had a greenie once but LOVED it eventhough it didn't last either. I'm not crazy about rawhide either but they liked it and they need to chew. I agree about the bones- eventually they will get those but hubby picked up what he did at the store, it's not what I would have chosen.
Yeah, I always give them a partial biscuit or treat after pottying or for some training sessions because it's the only motivation right now being so young and they look forward to it after they go potty and I'm trying to get this potty thing down haha. I don't think they'd even eat a few pieces of their regular food but I can try it!
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Oh, those poor babies--and poor mama, too!
My best advice would be to slow down! In your original post, you mention the following things that these pups have ingested in the past five weeks: wormer, wet food from breeder, yogurt, pumpkin, food from breeder's baggie, Solid Gold, Canidae lamb and rice, carrots, antibiotic, meat treats, Puperoni treats, bones, Busy Bones, biscuits, liver treats, greenies, porkhide bones, crunchy rawhide bones. That is way, way, way too much stuff for sensitive tummies.
I would suggest putting them on an easy to digest food (lamb is probably not your best choice) and feed them absolutely nothing but that for at least 10 days. It may take a week or more for their intestinal tracts to settle down, so you need to be patient. The only thing you should be adding to their food is water and perhaps a few table spoons of pumpkin. Nothing else. No treats. None. I would even give them bottled water for awhile to make sure that your tap water isn't contributing.
After they settle down, I would still wait a couple of weeks before trying any kind of treats. I would only introduce treats one at a time. By that, I mean give one treat and then wait at least a week before giving any others.
In my experience, the easiest food for dogs to adjust to is plain old Innova Dry Adult. You may want to try that.
The main thing is to slow down and be patient with these tummies.
Good luck!
Holly
yeah i realize i need to stick things out awhile before i expect to see a long term change and eventhough it sounded like i was throwing things at them left and right, i wasn't. i've been very patient. the yogurt i tried for a week then stopped. they never had pumpkin. they get bones daily so they have something to chew on and they get treats after their walks. the medication i really couldn't do anything about but it didn't seem to change anything, worse or better. they are out of their biscuits- again so they haven't been having those, just a mix of food that they've been eating for weeks and their bones. they usually get a daily carrot, but i dont see how that could be bad seeing as it always helps firm thier poop- in fact that's the only thing that's made a positive difference.
i will keep at it, it's all i can do! i will cut out everything but the food and see what happens. i just notice they don't eat much but not alot i can do about that and i figure they will eat when they want to. some days they surprise me and scarf down the bowl- but that's rare.
thanks for all the help!
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Hi Kristina,
First off I wanna say I LOVE your new pups! They are adorable!
I'm not any expert on this topic, but have they had stool samples? If so, how did things look? If you haven't gotten one, that may be your best bet at finding out the root of the problem. Also, sometimes it is hard to tell from 1 sample, I would have them look at another sample if nothing was found in the 1st. When my puppy Hoss came home he had coccidia, and we did a stool sample every 10 days until everything was normal. And we did one a few weeks after to make sure it was still normal. He had it for a while and had to take medicine a lot longer than usual. They aren't that expensive, I think we paid around $25 dollars or so.
If you haven't had a stool sample, I would recomend getting one.
Hope it all works out for you! I'm sure everyone elses advice on here will help you a huge bunch!
They've been to the vet twice- the first time they did a sample and told it was clear. 3 weeks later they had their second visit and another sample and said the float test was clear for parasites or something but then also took another sample for a different test (forget what it was called) and that showed the bacterica so they were treated for 5 days and they don't go back again for another 3 weeks. it would make sense to keep testing them for it, she didn't say they would or anything else about it besides give them this twice a day for 5 days. so i guess i'll find out something next time.
thanks!
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Hi,
You can also go to a homemade food to settle them down. Boil up a big pot of Rice, boil up some chicken (some dogs have chicken alergies so you can use other boiled meat too) and feed that until they settle down. Start mixing in the Kibble of choice once the stomachs settle down.
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Hi,
You can also go to a homemade food to settle them down. Boil up a big pot of Rice, boil up some chicken (some dogs have chicken alergies so you can use other boiled meat too) and feed that until they settle down. Start mixing in the Kibble of choice once the stomachs settle down.
boy i bet they would like that, probably not want to eat anything else after that lol. maybe i should start that and then gradually add in only the food i wanted to switch them to. that may be my best bet.
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I would suggest putting them on an easy to digest food (lamb is probably not your best choice) and feed them absolutely nothing but that for at least 10 days. It may take a week or more for their intestinal tracts to settle down, so you need to be patient. The only thing you should be adding to their food is water and perhaps a few table spoons of pumpkin. Nothing else. No treats. None. I would even give them bottled water for awhile to make sure that your tap water isn't contributing.
After they settle down, I would still wait a couple of weeks before trying any kind of treats. I would only introduce treats one at a time. By that, I mean give one treat and then wait at least a week before giving any others.
In my experience, the easiest food for dogs to adjust to is plain old Innova Dry Adult. You may want to try that.
The main thing is to slow down and be patient with these tummies.
Good luck!
Holly
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the adult innova you mentioned is it this formula? http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=%2F%2Fproduct%5B@id%3D%271%27%5D also if lamb and rice is no good for digestion, what other protein source would you recommend? just when i settle on something i feel really good about, then i have to start all over. ??? i feel like i've wasted so much money on food.
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Kristina,
When is your next visit? If it's not for a while, maybe you could call and see if you can just drop off a stool sample to check and see if the bacteria has gotten worse. Also, maybe they can give you more details about the bacteria and then you could research that. Getting to the root of the problem is probably the best way to figure out which way to go.
-Katie
Yes, you're right. But I think my vet is a moron unfortunately and I hadn't planned on going back there so I've been looking for a new one for their next visit. Maybe I'll have better luck there. They didn't tell me anything about the bacteria but in looking up the medication I found out which bacteria it treats- so hopefully they did something right and treated it correctly. Apparently it was a very small amount of bacteria and it was taken from the female.
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I'm with Winslow's dad... my Bear has an infamous tender tummy (booty blow-out AT the vet's office ::)). A couple meals of boiled beef and rice, and we're back to good poops. I also use Immodium to help stop the projectile nasties. Good luck!
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I find that boiled brown rice helps too. Our Harley is on innova evo red meat diet and she has perfect small poop. This is the only food that she does well on. Our old vet recommended Science Diet and she had the worst gas and booty blowout I have ever seen. We have since changed vets and we returned the bag of food. That was over a year ago. We now go to a holistic vet, and we googled them to see what credentials sp ??? they had ect.
Nina
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I think you've gotten some great advice! I have witnessed myself some things with regard to diet and my pups. I wanted to mention that while my dogs have typically done fairly well on food, I have a lot of trouble with "additions". For example, Bully Sticks cause MAJOR trouble for Bella; real bones of any kinds caused MAJOR trouble for Pepper; I've seen certain other treats do the same. Also, I've noticed that lamb doesn't agree with Bella for some reason. When she's on a Chicken formula her poops are better. I think the best thing is what you've already been told; to cut out everything except the food, and then try one thing at a time. And you may find eventually that one particular type of meat doesn't work as well for them. Lots of people switch to Duck and other meat types to get away from some of the "typical problem meats". Eventually, you may find that it was just ONE thing that you hadn't even considered causing the problem. I hope you get it resolved! Yucky dog poops suck!
Your puppies are sweetie pies!!!! :D
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I think you've gotten some great advice! I have witnessed myself some things with regard to diet and my pups. I wanted to mention that while my dogs have typically done fairly well on food, I have a lot of trouble with "additions". For example, Bully Sticks cause MAJOR trouble for Bella; real bones of any kinds caused MAJOR trouble for Pepper; I've seen certain other treats do the same. Also, I've noticed that lamb doesn't agree with Bella for some reason. When she's on a Chicken formula her poops are better. I think the best thing is what you've already been told; to cut out everything except the food, and then try one thing at a time. And you may find eventually that one particular type of meat doesn't work as well for them. Lots of people switch to Duck and other meat types to get away from some of the "typical problem meats". Eventually, you may find that it was just ONE thing that you hadn't even considered causing the problem. I hope you get it resolved! Yucky dog poops suck!
Your puppies are sweetie pies!!!! :D
thank you! i can't wait to figure it all out. funny they are both the same way about whatever is bothering them. i've never had sensitive dogs before. our last dog we could switch her food at the drop of a hat, add in anything and she never missed a beat. just goes to show you how different they are. i never anticipated such problems. they look very sad today expecting and not getting their treats and bones but it's for their own good. :)
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Kristina, don't get to frustrated with their diets. Great Pyrenees are not great eaters! They don't eat a lot and they are not food motivated (at least most of them). They are very picky eaters and the more you offer the pickier they get!!! My dog is totally out of place with her diet. One day she wants raw meat only...another week she only wants kibble...then she will not eat for a day or two. She would not touch any friets or veggies. She would not eat raw turkey or chicken and only wants lamb and beef. I'll tell you...she drove me nuts for a long long time. And I gave up! I can only worry for so long! And they know when you concerned and WILL manipulate you. Those dogs think they are smarter then you are, you know!
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Okay, I agree. Thanks so much for all your information. I may do the unthinkable and switch them over to Innova then when I get some more money next month, but in the meantime I'm giving them strictly Canidae and no treats or bones or anything. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll do super well and I can keep them on it.
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There is also some research that indicated lamb diets leech taurine from a dog's system, and can lead to heart problems including DCM. Some people don't put a lot of stock in that, but I know when we were testing the crap out of Kiz, we ruled out genetics and other heart conditions. Guess what puppy food he was on? Lamb and rice. Just not worth the risk, IMO.
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Yeah true, that is very scary. :(
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Hopefully your pups will be free of booty blowouts soon! One quick quesiton, why is switching them to Innova unthinkable? It's a fantastic food that is super healthy. I'm just curious! Thanks!
No, I just meant because I would be switching them yet again.
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ahhh I see. Sorry I misunderstood! If you do switch them, I hope that you are pleasantly surprised! Good luck!
Gosh, me too. You all might make a believer out of me. ;) I'd be ever so grateful!
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innova is a GREAT dog food! diesel does wonderfully on it! with him, we buy a 33 lb bag of it, and it lasts us over a month. we spend $40 a bag, but like i said it lasts forever, and that's with a dane eating twice a day!
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innova is a GREAT dog food! diesel does wonderfully on it! with him, we buy a 33 lb bag of it, and it lasts us over a month. we spend $40 a bag, but like i said it lasts forever, and that's with a dane eating twice a day!
yeah that's about what i've been paying for what i feed them, but that's impressive how long it lasts you. these guys don't eat a hefty amount so it's lasted a long time. i just gotta find out where i can get the Innova now.. time to make more phone calls. :)
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go here to find a store
http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=stores-tab
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go here to find a store
http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=stores-tab
thanks. there is a place right up the strt from me so hopefully that's accurate and they have it there. that'd be great
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Yiska had her first normal poop this morning! lol, how gross yeah, but it's exciting. Do I think it will last? No idea but that's the most normal I've ever seen it, I hope it's not a fluke. Yukon wouldn't go so I can't see how he's doing yet, but if taking out the Solid Gold food is what did it, I'll be writing a nice email. :)
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did you guys give them treats every day? that could have been the culprit also.
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hm, they were having these liver flavored treats after potty trips or when they would go in the crate. when they had biscuits they would get one of those for a potty reward but they've been out for several days. hmm..i'm not sure.
Yukon finally pooped, the first half looked perfect..then he went and squatted again and the second half was yuck. they've done that a lot before, what's up with that anyway? ???
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Not to steal the thread, but, MELISSA! Hey! Where have you been? I haven't seen you in awhile! We need new pics of the kids, OK?
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I sympathize with your booty blow-out situation! Bo had MAJOR tummy problems for a long time until we figured that she is allergic to all grains. We now have her on a grain-free diet and supplement her kibble with probiotics, digestive enzymes, pau d'arco tincture (for immune system support) and salmon oil. Whew!! Pyrs are pretty picky eaters & often will skip meals, so don't worry about them starving. My vet once told me that a dog can go for up to a week with only water and be fine (not that I want to test that theory, though). I also give Bo the slippery elm powder (sold at any health food store) plus canned pumpkin when she does have runny poops. It is GREAT and much easier to administer than pepto (very messy on a white dog).
Good luck!!
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I sympathize with your booty blow-out situation! Bo had MAJOR tummy problems for a long time until we figured that she is allergic to all grains. We now have her on a grain-free diet and supplement her kibble with probiotics, digestive enzymes, pau d'arco tincture (for immune system support) and salmon oil. Whew!! Pyrs are pretty picky eaters & often will skip meals, so don't worry about them starving. My vet once told me that a dog can go for up to a week with only water and be fine (not that I want to test that theory, though). I also give Bo the slippery elm powder (sold at any health food store) plus canned pumpkin when she does have runny poops. It is GREAT and much easier to administer than pepto (very messy on a white dog).
Good luck!!
Good to know, I know right where I can get that stuff. Thank you! Hopefully mine aren't as sensitive once their systems calm down, what a pain!