Big Paws Only Dog Forums
BPO Medical Forum => Medical Conditions & Diseases => : mama23+pyrs2 September 07, 2007, 12:04:28 AM
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In fact I am crying. I just heard from him, his xrays all look PERFECT, so I have a perfect dog that just happens to have a horrible limp for no reason. Isn't that nice? What the hel* do I do now? I'm SO over this! They can't do anything for us, nothing. They are feeding us the same lines that is a soft tissue injury and it needs extra time to heal OR it's something they just can't see. The Ortho vet examined him all over and could feel nothing abnormal and couldn't get him to react to any pain. Our options are to send the x-rays to a radiologist to be reviewed OR they will bundle them up and refer us to a specialist. I have no idea where there is one around here, so he is going to find out.. I don't even know when we could get into one.
I'm just sooooooo frustrated, I'm gonna go cry my eyes out. Obviously there is SOMETHING wrong with my dog!!!! I told him we'll take him somewhere else, maybe they are total morons and don't know what they are doing- how am I to know.
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aww, im so sorry. i can understand how frusterating this is! i hope you can find someone to help you!
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here's a link about soft tissue trauma, it says you should see improvement in 3-5 days with medicine... it also has a few names of medicine. maybe if you read it you can bring some of these up to a vet and ask them? :(
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/soft-tissue-trauma-in-dogs/page1.aspx
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Oh cr@p, that is soooooo frustrating, I can see why you are in tears! :( >:( Here's what I'd do....I'd ask for the x-rays when your hubby picks up Yukon. Some vets don't like to give them to you. We had one univ vet school say that we'd just paid to have the x-rays taken, but if we wanted to take them with us they'd charge us a lot more b/c they belonged to the vet school, we'd just paid for their time to take them, not for us to own them. Nope, we weren't amused! Anyway, if you can get the x-rays, take them!!! Then I'd call your local Pyr Rescue coordinator and ask them who they use for ortho problems. You know that they'll know who is & isn't good. They deal with ortho problems with their own dogs as well as the rescue pups. Then I'd send in or take in the x-rays to that vet. It could save you a bunch of money. Also, try to get the previous x-rays that were taken a month or so ago, so that the new vet can have a baseline from which to compare. That could be a critical point for them. I am so, so sorry that you guys are going through all of this. :( ((Hugs)) to all of you, including the sweet boy himself.
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this vet did a paper on all sorts of things that can cause limping in large / giant breeds and he put his e-mail for questions. maybe you can ask for advice?
here's the link to the site (i pmed it to you too)
http://members.aol.com/RocknRob56/limping.html
and contact info:
Robin M. Smith, DVM
Westminster Veterinary Emergency/Trauma Center
269 W. Main St., Westminster, MD 21557
Work 410-848-3363
(Fax) 410-848-4959
E-mail: RocknRob56@aol.com
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Yeah, I told him to get the x-rays. They did offer to give them to us to take to a specialist AND apparently they aren't going to charge us anything for today. I was just talking to my MIL and she was saying that he needs an MRI. If he has this OCD thing, and a piece of cartilage is loose in there, he would need an MRI to see that right? I'm just trying to think of what on earth this could be, causing him this much pain, getting worse, and not showing up in the x-ray.
I'm not surprised he didn't react to the pain, he's a Pyr..they probably know nothing about the breed. If it didn't hurt, he wouldn't be limping on it, geez.
Steffanie~ thanks I will read that link now
Marie~ thanks for the advice on what to do next
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Oh man, that is so frustating.
If it is soft tissue, are they thinking it's a really nasty tear? When I tore my ACL (yes, I know that's not the shoulder but just for an example), it hurt SO bad. It continued to be sore and, frankly, not very "useable" for the entire month that I waited before my surgery.
They won't say WHAT they think he injured so I have no clue! Would it get worse though, worse after a month of not doing anything?
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on OCD the website has two things i wanted to share with you
Osteochondriti s dissecans (OCD) occurs most frequently in rapidly growing, male, large and giant breed dogs.
The diagnosis of OCD is confirmed by radiographs. There are certain locations of the various bones where these lesions are seen; therefore the veterinarian has to be familiar with the correct positioning of the dog to be sure to see the lesions. Once diagnosed, surgery can correct the problem or at least alleviate the pain involved.
i haven't had any experience with it though, maybe someone else could help more? all i can go by is what i can research :-\
maybe it's getting worst b/c he's not using it as much... kind of like when you pull a muscle and just lay there, it gets cramped up even worst than if you were to walk around? who knows...
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Ok where is marymjm when we need her? Jane, do you have any suggestions? There is a website also called pyrnet. See if you can get on that and see if there is anyone on that site that can refer you to someone who specializes in Pyrs. Jane knows some great breeders who may also be able to point you in a particular direction. I am not even sure that my vet could help with this one since the xrays are not showing anything, however she also breeds Pyrs. I may have to talk to her about something else in the near future so I will ask, but I am thinking that you are going to have to get a MRI or a CT scan that is going to show the soft tissues not just the bone.
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Isn't it something? Sorry you have to deal with this :(
I have never had to deal with canine ortho problems BUT I sure had plenty of sport injuries myself and what I learned is that X-ray never show anything. They are just a link to an MRI since insurance Co will not pay for it without x-raying first.
Anyways, I had a tendinitis (sp?) that was bothering me for 8 months. I had 3 sets of x-rays done and 2 MRI and only the last one showed something. And after all that the Dr. told me to let it heal itself...Just an example to make you feel better :-\
I know that MRI is very expensive but it seems it is the only way to go if you want to find out the extend of the injury
I feel your frustration and hope you will get this resolved
Kisses and hugs from us :-* :-* :-*
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Well, he brought me the cd of his x-rays, the first ones and todays. He is telling me that he asked about the OCD and the Dr. said it's a possibility but that they could only find out through MRI or actually going in there and looking. The vet gave us a card with several orthopedic surgeons at this one practice and said they are the best around. He said if it is OCD, they have everything there to deal with it. This vets office doesn't have an MRI machine.
Oh, he hasn't gained an ounce in 2 weeks either. :-\
Thanks for all the info you guys are giving me.
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at least now you have SOMEWHERE to start looking... and an idea of where to start :-\
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I am sorry for your frustration... I know this is tough and worrisome. Are you doing all of this with regular vets? If so, I believe that is the source of your frustration. Regular vets are not schooled in or well equipped to diagnose chronic illness and orthopedic problems. If you have not gone straight to an orthopedic specialist already, I would do so ASAP....in fact, I head straight there when a problem arises.....ski p a regular vet altogether and don't waste my money.
A specialist can do bone scans, ultrasounds, MRIs, gait evaluations, better qualified physical manipulation etc. If I had time to share every stupid, knucklehead, incorrect thing a regular vet said as diagnosis, I would be rich :)
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Hey. :'(
I'm so sorry for all of this stupid cr@ppy stuff you and poor Yukon are going through right now. I have nothing to add and no advise to give. I just really hope you guys can find someone who's competant and is able to figure out what's wrong with Yukon and get him treated.
My thoughts are with you.
Hugs for you and Yukon. :-* :-*
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Ah GEEZE!!!!! Poor Yukon! Poor Kristina!!
Did they use ansethesia when they took the X-rays? I personally hesitate. Especially with Pyrs because of their super low metabolism. But sometimes it's necessary to get a good read. Othewise the pup will tense up and they can't get a correct diagnosis.
I am extreemly fortunate to have Roger Pitts as my Vet. He's one of the best ever in my mind. When Rain had a possible torn ACL Roger gave her a complete exam. Then he referred her to an excellent Orthopdic Specialist. They were extreemly careful with the anesthesia and gave only to effect. But were able to get what they needed to rule out a tear. The first thing we did before the X-ray, however, was to run a Lymes test. (Negative)
I do think that an MRI would possibly be advisable. That would have been my next step had Rainbow not responded to rest and Homeopathic Therapy. I even made an appointment with the U of M Vet School just in case.
I would suggest, as did Paige, that you sign up on Pyrnet. They're a fantastic group when it comes to our Pyr Bears. It's www.pyrnet.org to sign in. There's a wealth of knowledge in these people.
You may also want to contact Dianne Mingas @ bluepyrs@comcast.net She's one fantastic lady and works tirelessly on the GPCA Health Committee.
Here is another site that might give you some insite.
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/cruciates.html
Sending Hugs and Prayers that you can get to the bottom of this. Feel free to PM me anytime. And my email is listed. Take Care Kristina! :-* Kisses to Yukon. (& Sis Yiska too!)
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Ah GEEZE!!!!! Poor Yukon! Poor Kristina!!
Did they use ansethesia when they took the X-rays? I personally hesitate. Especially with Pyrs because of their super low metabolism. But sometimes it's necessary to get a good read. Othewise the pup will tense up and they can't get a correct diagnosis.
I am extreemly fortunate to have Roger Pitts as my Vet. He's one of the best ever in my mind. When Rain had a possible torn ACL Roger gave her a complete exam. Then he referred her to an excellent Orthopdic Specialist. They were extreemly careful with the anesthesia and gave only to effect. But were able to get what they needed to rule out a tear. The first thing we did before the X-ray, however, was to run a Lymes test. (Negative)
I do think that an MRI would possibly be advisable. That would have been my next step had Rainbow not responded to rest and Homeopathic Therapy. I even made an appointment with the U of M Vet School just in case.
I would suggest, as did Paige, that you sign up on Pyrnet. They're a fantastic group when it comes to our Pyr Bears. It's www.pyrnet.org to sign in. There's a wealth of knowledge in these people.
You may also want to contact Dianne Mingas @ bluepyrs@comcast.net She's one fantastic lady and works tirelessly on the GPCA Health Committee.
Here is another site that might give you some insite.
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/cruciates.html
Sending Hugs and Prayers that you can get to the bottom of this. Feel free to PM me anytime. And my email is listed. Take Care Kristina! :-* Kisses to Yukon. (& Sis Yiska too!)
Thank you so much, I will look into those. They did not sedate him to get the xrays, no..not the first time and not this time.
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I'm so sorry that you still don't have any definitive answers. That really sucks. I know how you feel because there was a month or so where all Kaila did was limp with pano and the acl partial tears. Big hugs to you and Yukon and Yiska because it's no fun when your sibling can't play with you.
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The great dane lady recommends OCD treatment with Adequan injections first and apparently has had great success without surgery- you might want to check out that avenue first. Over the years I have had 5 puppies with OCD- 3 had surgery 2 did not as they healed with conservative treatment. OCD can be seen on xray - I never had an MRI done On the ones with surgery it is pretty much curative- they are up and about right away and the surgery is inexpensive
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The great dane lady recommends OCD treatment with Adequan injections first and apparently has had great success without surgery- you might want to check out that avenue first. Over the years I have had 5 puppies with OCD- 3 had surgery 2 did not as they healed with conservative treatment. OCD can be seen on xray - I never had an MRI done On the ones with surgery it is pretty much curative- they are up and about right away and the surgery is inexpensive
I read that if they aren't really looking for OCD and don't get just the right positions for the x-rays that the lesions can be missed? I'm sooooooooooooo ooooooo confused. I guess I just need to get him to a specialist and see what they find, if anything. If nothing, I guess I have no choice but to wait out his recovery. :-\
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I read that if they aren't really looking for OCD and don't get just the right positions for the x-rays that the lesions can be missed? I'm sooooooooooooo ooooooo confused. I guess I just need to get him to a specialist and see what they find, if anything. If nothing, I guess I have no choice but to wait out his recovery. :-\
It is true that a vet with little or no experience with OCD might position him wrong or miss the cartilage flap on an x-ray, but the orthopedic specialist should be able to spot it, assuming they got a few decent angles.
The good news is that if it is OCD and they are having this much trouble spotting it, the flap probably hasn't detached (a floating chunk of cartilage is easier to see). That would mean he likely wouldn't have to have surgery, just the Adequan treatment. Once it detaches, surgery is the only option. Soooo, if it's OCD, you want to get it diagnosed ASAP.
It doesn't take much of a cartilage flap to really cause a lot of discomfort, so it could be something really small and hard to spot.
I was under the impression that the cartilage wouldn't show up on x-ray though, at least not easily- it would?
If he has torn something that can't be seen on x-ray like a muscle or tendon or I don't know, but something bad.. that would need to be diagnosed with an MRI also correct? I was reading that sometimes those things require surgery if they don't improve in a relatively short amt of time. I guess I'm confused why they think it was something that would heal itself just because it's soft tissue and wouldn't need any further treatment. Unless if something was injured that badly, they would be able to feel by manipulation.
Sorry I am just thinking out loud. This has definitely been a learning experience.
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Bava's X-rays and symptoms were classical OCD. The vet saw the flap of cartilage and said more than likely what had happened with him was that a part had torn off but instead of being re-absorbed it calcified and lodged in his shoulder. Course this is a vet who does pretty much nothing but Ortho diagnoses. We found out about that on a Thursday or some such and we had surgery done on him on a Monday. He spent the night and we got him the next afternoon late. He WALKED out of the vets office looking like frankenstein with the stitches, but he had NO limp which he'd had for MONTHS.
Since then, NO limps.
UGH, if only it were that easy for us. I know it's only been a bit over a month, but I'm seriously scared he'll never walk normally again. I plan to call the specialists they referred us to on Monday and find out how much it's going to cost to get him seen there and what they will need to do..it's quite a distance from where we live so we want to make sure we don't have to make a ton of trips. I sure hope we can afford this or I don't know what we'll do. Just seems so many problems are raining down on us right now, course it always works that way. In the end, things will work out. I'm being optimistic here, it's a rarity for me, so someone pat me on the back. :P
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Has your breeder suggested anything or any vets?
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oh trust me none of it was easy. Like I said, he limped for MONTHS, we tried crate rest, no exercise, rimadyl, massage, keeping him lean to keep him from gaining too much weight, several vet visits (did I mention - well I have in the past, we're in DEBT to our vet), x-rays, being told it might be this it might be that, etc etc etc....the limp going away, but coming back, finally finding an ortho vet NOT hours away and getting a diagnosis that it was more than likely OCD (if it has to be anything, let it be that is what we kept thinking) and having the surgery done on him and the recuperation afterwards.
Trust me :) It was NOT easy. ;) What I'm trying to say to you is *I* totally understand how you feel and hope you understand :)
Geez, I didn't realize it was that long and drawn out. I don't think I have it in me! :-\ Amazing how you went through all of that and when you FINALLY got the right diagnosis, he was fixed pretty much overnight. That has to be maddening.
My breeder still hasn't emailed me back. I've been emailing her updates but I haven't heard from her since his first vet visit, a couple weeks ago. I'll just send another update email from this vist. She'll get back to me as soon as she can I know that.
I found a specialty hospital close to us and the regular vet actually and called them a minute ago to get some price information etc. Guess they all do consults first and then go from there. Anyway, they do have an orthopedic surgeon there as well as all the state of the art machines etc. Then I called the place the vet recommended, which is quite far of course, and their first available appt is Tuesday, talk about getting in fast! So, I'm waiting to talk to hubby to see if we can make it work or not. He's in the middle of car problems at work, so talking to him was like talking to a wall. I'll wait. ::)
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Awww. I'm sorry your normal vet didn't find anything. I know how frustrating that can be when you KNOW something is wrong.
I'm sure these orthopedic specialists will be able to find something out. At least more than these other guys know!
As some others have mentioned (including your vet), an MRI sounds like the way to go. Also, (as others said), maybe the orthopedic specialists will want different x-rays if they didn't position Yukon correctly.
I don't really have much advice to give, but I'm sorry this is happening. :( I hope they find out what is causing this soon! I'm glad you're not giving up on it just because your vet is!
Hugs and Kisses to Yukon! (and Yiska too!)
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And apparently he was crying this morning so I don't know what that is about. I was sleeping and all of a sudden I heard this awful, high pitched crying, like someone was hurt..I ran out here thinking one of them got a paw stuck in their crate or something- it was that kinda cry. And there stands Yukon holding his foot off the ground just staring at me. ??? Then he laid down. I'm quite sure it was him because Yiska was laying down not doing anything. I texted hubby and he said he seemed fine this morning when he let them out to potty and that he was digging... so maybe he aggrivated it doing that. I was just thinking he was probably sore from all the positions for the x-rays yesterday- and of course they didn't give him anything for pain.
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Normally, I would never recommend giving medication that you aren't sure is needed, but if I were you, I'd talk to the vet about trying Adequan, even though he doesn't have a diagnosis of OCD (yet?). There are practically no side effects, so there wouldn't be a danger to giving it to him if he doesn't need it. If it is OCD, and if the cartilage flap hasn't detached yet, it could help him a lot. What I am concerned about it that he does have it and it hasn't detached, all this time is just increasing the chances that it will detach and require surgery. Do you think your vet would be willing to try this approach while you are waiting to get a definitive diagnosis?
Possibly. I haven't ever talked with the Ortho vet that hubby saw yesterday..so I can't say what feeling I got from him, but maybe so. I am waiting for a call back from the specialists for an appt date, since the 11th won't work (needs to be on hubbys day off).. I need to see what they have available next.
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Mystery conditions cost mega-bucks, don't they? I don't know if this will help, but it may be worth considering: when my Irish setter was young he suddenly couldn't walk one day or, if he tried (he's a real sook), he'd just limp pathetically. At first they thought it was a cruciate ligament injury, then they suggested bone cancer, but X-rays disproved these. He lost a lot of weight and condition and was put on cartrophen, which is used for arthritis in old dogs. He went on other stuff, too, which probably included antibiotics and cortisone.
Anyway, it all kind of eventually resolved by itself, slowly ... but it remained a mystery. Recently I've been reading about hypothyroid conditions, the most common type being auto-immune related where the dog's immune system destoys its own thyroid gland. This usually happens in dogs about three or so, but doesn't necessarily have any effect until the animal is older. Interestingly enough, the point was made that when this first happens, however, the dog can present with lameness and how this is not usually considered by the vet and the thyroid condition goes undetected. Good luck!
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awww i'm sooo sorry for your vet situation. Your poor baby is limping and you know something is wrong and it's like do something! It almost reminds me of "Steel Magnolia's" when Shirley McClain comes out to the nurses station and is demading help for her daughter's pain.. that's how i felt with fumble and his ACL, but even with that it was so easy to diagnose and i was still a mess. So i cannot imagine how you are with questions still in the air. Just keep your head up! Hopefully you'll find a vet that will be able to understand giant breed babies!
Good luck!
Fumble sends lots of drool and kisses!