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BPO Medical Forum => Medical Conditions & Diseases => : jabear April 24, 2005, 01:28:27 AM
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About a year and a half ago Bear began to limp in his elbows after playtime, long walks and sometimes after getting up from a long nap. We watched him carefully and noted when it happened on a calender. Well, after a few doctor visits and medicines, new, unclear x-rays showed hazily that he had slips in his joints. The vet told us that it was severe dysplasia and that we needed to prepare for him to get worse by the day. He said his quality of life would be changed and that we should neuter him right away because he would never be able breed. I was so horrified by the blatant disregard for my feelings at hearing this news. I ended up calling our breeder and balled my eyes out. She reassured me that finding things like that in the x-ray were normal at Bear's age and that as long as I had him on his joint meds he would be okay. I also talked to several of my Newfy friends and got the same advice. So, we relaxed and just watched him. As he has gotten older his bones have solidified and we rarely, if ever, have a sore limpy dog. We think we're going to take him in for real, OFA certified x-rays in September when he turns 3 so that we can find out for sure if our intact boy had growing pains or if he really does have dyslpasia.
So, I am wondering now how many of you have gone through a scenario like this? Does anyone else have a dog with dysplasia? If so, I'd love to know how you treat it other than with Remadyl.
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Knock on wood!! I have never had a dog with those problems, I have friends though with dogs with more or less severe hip or elbow problems. From the breeders I have bought my big dogs, I have always got the advice that, when it is time to do the final x-ray - go to a vet that is very very skilled in this, how to "arrange" the dog on the table, how to strech out the legs and if not absolutely necessary do NOT sedate, that can effect the readings. I have heard quite a few stories when people went to their regular vet to have it done and it came back as either fair or faulty. When they repeated the x-ray at a vet that was known for being a good hip/elbow x-rayer. They got the readings back with better result. So I truly think it is of utmost importance to go to a vet that is experienced in hips and elbows.
Good luck, and I hope he is okay, but giving him gluc. has I am sure helped, I dont know what dosage you are giving him, but if not too high, maybe you could even opt it a bit.
Marit
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I'm so sorry to hear about Bear's condition. I've never gone through that since I've normally had smaller dogs till now. I hope neither of our girls experience this.
A good breeder will address the hip and elbow tests before the puppy leaves their nest and that is somewhat reassuring.
I do know of a preventative treatment.
The breeder who I got my Rott from gave me this bit of advise. Feeding your dog 1000mg of Vitamin C after the age of 6 months and 500mg (or a half a pill) of Vitamin C with meals helps in preventing Hip Dysplasia. I also mix their food with yogert (1 tablespoon under 6 months and 2 tablespoons over 6 months) which aids in digestion. Makes them have to out more often...but keeps them healthy! And that is the important part. :)
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Hi Lins_Saving_Gr ace, vitamin C is good for a lot of things, even years and years ago when I had my Danes it was given to prevent the paws from spreading, both with mastiffs aswell as danes you want the tight feet. I give yougurt too, I have to admit not on a regular basis but it is good for their stomachs though, especially the ones with bellies that tend to get upset.
What you said about that a good breeder address the hip/elbow issue before they leave the nest. hmmmm not sure if I understand what you mean. I am with you that they should have all their health certificates, and at the very leaset you should have full certs for both parents and better yet. for grandparents and elbow and hip should be done on as many of their breedings as possible. But as for x-ray the puppy itself, I guess you could do it just for a first check when they are about a year old but really no reason, because it is not an accurate reading. On I believe all giants the hip and elbow x-rays can not be recorded until they are at least 24 months. Having good readings on the parents is extremely important and checking up on their breeding in the past how they are with their joints, but unfortunately that is no guaranti. Once in a blue moon you can get a bad hip or elbow even from the soundest line.
Another thing that can effect hips or elbows, is how they grow up. Do they grow too fast, are they constantly on slippery floors, are they playing very hard and maybe fall bad well with a little bit of bad luck that can make a difference when the day comes to x-ray, so me for one am really really keeping my fingers crossed and even with the best lines, I have a hard time breathing until I have the final reading in my hand.
Marit
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I just meant that any reputable breeder should do the tests on hips and elbows and personality with the correct authoirty before the pup goes home with the new parents. :)
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Okay, now I am with you lol... I was not at all trying to be second guessing you, just that I have just a few weeks ago been in a lot of discussions about hips and elbows and how some people thing it is a guarante when the lines are good and a first check is done on the puppy. But it sounds like you have a very good breeder. and they are sooooo important. Do you have a good friendship relationship going on with them???
Marit
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With Bear I think it was all growth because he is just a big boy. He was 32 lbs. at 12 weeks. His lines are awesome and our breeder has all of her dogs OFA certified and has assured us that having the vet "find" signs of dysplasia is kinda normal for vets without much experience with big dogs especilly when the dog is growing at such a quick rate. BTW, our breeder is the best in the world and is always there when we need her even with her very hectic show schedule.
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It sounds like you have a real nice breeder, and with all dogs in the line tested, and Bear being done early and maybe when he was growing a lot. Well I'll keep my fingers crossed that when he gets in next time, everything will be okay. I ma sure it will.
Good Luck
Marit
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How awful and scary for you! We did have a Newf that had severe dysplasia (actually no hip socket on one side!!!) and the orthopedic surgeon that took care of him (total hip replacement at a year) said the VERY most important thing was to keep him as thin as we could. His dad was 165 pounds and we kept him at about 135-140 pounds. He also took Cosequin DS which seemed to help. I would think it might be a good idea to get him to a veterinary orthopedist just to get a baseline check on him so you know if things start to get bad. I know that arthritis drugs can be hard on their liver!!
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You may want to look into Metacam, an antinflamitory that we were just prescribed for Kiya. My breeder said it seems to be the new drug of choice. Then like all other drugs these days are probably worse than the disease.
Carolyn
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Hi! I just found this site yesterday and the timing is perfect. I really need some advice. My 6 1/2 mo. old Newf/St Bernard/Lab pup was just diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia. We had him neutered last week and asked them to take x-rays while he was under b/c he has periodically had a funny gait and his hips click when he walks and sits. We have a consult scheduled next week with an orthepedic surgeon. We are prepared to do surgery, even though we don't have the $, if that's what Cooper needs to live a decent life. But I'm confused because I've read a few accounts of a dog being diagnosed with HD and then hips appearing normal after a year or so. But, I know it can go in the other direction as well and he could end up in pain and lame. It feels like such a gamble! Can anyone tell me how they came to their decision whether it was surgery or alternative?
Thanks
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Two months ago we had quite a scare ourselves. Hutch had been playing with our other dog and he fell on his front left leg and developed a limp. We took him to our vet and she immediatley thought elbow dysplasia. She wanted to do the x-rays ASAP, she was adament about putting him under. We decided that we wanted to do some research on the issue before we payed the $500 for the x-rays. So with tons of research and contacting several Saint breeders we were told that we should give it a little and see if he settles, again because it is hard to get a good reading before two years of age.
Today Hutch is doing just fine. We are prepared to get him X-rayed if he develops a problem, but have also been researching the local vets to see if we can find one that has better knowledge of our boys breed. But I think that if/when we get his X-rays taken we will travel to PEI to have them done. A three hour drive away, but worth the specialists that they have at the Veterinary college.
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Please make sure you get him to a clinic that does LOTS and LOTS of this type of surgery..and one who is very conservative! When we took Otis (who had NO hip socket on one side so that his femur would slip off and just be loose and severly dysplastic on the other) I had his xrays in hand. The surgeon said that at that point he didn't care to see the xrays...he wanted to see the dog. Many dogs do just fine who are severely dysplastic...a nd others suffer with a far milder form. After he watched Otis move, he told us we could wait to do the surgery until he couldn't get up any more...but since he was so young (a year) and healthy we didn't want him to be in any more pain than necessary and so we did it immediately. The surgery IS rough! Don't let them tell you anything else! Otis came home with a morphine patch after two nights in the hospital. He whimpered or cried for three weeks! BUT THEN!!!! he was great! He could run and play with the best of them! The only time he' d have a problem was when he was running full out and then you could see his rear end sort of collapse...but he'd just do his best to keep going. We took him hiking in the mountains in Idaho, LONG walks around here, up and down hills. He was GRAND! No more pain that we could tell! it was expensive ($5000 five years ago) but Otis was SO worth it!
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Thanks for the advice. The surgeon we were referred to has a very good reputation. Surgery alone will be around $5000 but that's the way I'm leaning. I just don't want Cooper to be in pain and I've heard some dogs hide their pain (survival instinct) so I'm not sure I can take that chance. It seems like it must be serious if he is demonstrating symptoms at such a young age. I guess I just really want someone to tell me this is something he'll grow out of... I think I'm still in a bit of denial about it.
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My malamute started limping when she was about 6 mo old for no apparent reason. I took her to my vet and was referred to a pet hospital to have a leg specialist look at her. The original vet that looked at her felt that it might be dysplasia in her front legs. This vet was actually someone filling in for my normal vet as he was on vacation. She totally panicked me! Anyway, they did xrays and he indicated that there was dysplasia in her front legs with the right one being worse. Luckily, there were no bone fragments floating around so surgery was not needed. He also mentioned that even tho it was possible that it might get worse as she ages since she is a big dog, it could also be that the pain was being caused by her growing too fast. He was very thorough and did not in any way indicate that surgery would be necessary. He recommended Glucose powder and gave me a prescription for Rimadyl. Told me to keep an eye on her and not play too rough or go on long walks for a bit. The Rimadyl was only for if she was limping. My breeder indicated that Rimadyl is not always good for a dog as there can be complications. My vet also suggested using Glucose capsules for humans as it is the same thing but cheaper. On a good note, after several months she stopped limping and has been fine ever since. This happened Jan 2002. She sometimes limps but I think that is her own clumsiness that hurts her! Hopefully, your baby is just having some growing pains and everything will right itself as she gets older.
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It sounds like you are doing all the right things and only your gut will tell you whether it's the right thing or not. We had NO option since Otis' pelvis was flat where there should have been a socket. Considering that we didn't do anything to the dysplastic side....and rimadyl only when he limped (which was virtually never!), he did so well! We didn't have him nearly long enough because he also had spinal issues.
I'm sure you'll do whatever the right thing is for your puppy-love! That's just how we big-dog people are! We think with our hearts!
Keep us posted!
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Thanks everyone for all the support. Everything happened so fast! We took Cooper in for x-rays to see if he was a candidate for surgery and then had to schedule one of them for two days later b/c his right hip was almost in-operable (sp?). The bone was already wearing down and some sign of arthritis setting in. I just can't fathom that when he isn't even done growing! Anyway, we picked him up on Friday and he seems to be recovering well. Although the sedatives are a must-he really wants to play! We'll get the other hip done in a couple of weeks. Hopefully all will be back to normal by early Fall and we can take some camping trips with the boys! If anyone needs any info about hip dysplasia or triple pelvic osteotomy, I'm your woman. I know more than I ever wanted.
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We have jsut gone through this with Rufus....Our trainer was the one that noticed him limping and said to have his hips checked out.
Severe dysplasia is what they told us and our vet was immediately saying SURGERY.....no t to mention that it would cost as much as a car.....i was very confused because I never noticed that he was in any kind of pain or discomfort.
We decided to take the "holistic" approach and started him on accupuncture treatments with a holistic vet but I wasn't noticing anything different....W hat they were calling "accupuncutre treatments" was really just giving him B-12 shot all up and down his spine. I was so mad the last time we left because they charged for all of this extra stuff and basically felt like they were taking advantage of our "lack of knowledge" of the holistic treatments.
Last Monday, I contacted our regular vet and just pleaded with her to tell me the right thing to do if we can't afford the surgery. She said that as long as we keep him on all of his supplements and keep his weight down, we should be o.k.
I am very intersted to see how his x-rays will change once he is full grown (he still has about 60 lbs. to go)
So we will sit tight and probably get more x-rays in about a year to see if anything has changed.
It is comforting to know that others are going through our same issues.
Thanks- Kelli & Rufus
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Strider was diagnosed with mild hip dysplagia...Th ey want to see 75% of the ball joint in the socket, and he only has enough socket for 50%. But we started him on cosequin, and she said that it's a crap shoot. Some dogs get worse and require the surgery, some live to a ripe old age completely unaffected. When they are so young they sometimes improve as bone development continues.
Stella
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lil rufus and gr8dame, please keep me updated how your dogs progress. It was such a hard decision because there is a possibility that they will be okay. That's what the orthepedist said about Cooper on the first consult but after seeing additonal x-rays he strongly recommended the surgery. It sounded like his chances of being normal were slim to none. I wish you guys the best. I know how sad and scary it is.
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Greta absolutely loves massages.
Sometimes I put a hot water bottle on her joints...or a heating pad.
Glucosamine-condroitin.
...and more massage.
Low impact exercise, like swimming instead of running. Shorter walks, followed by massage. Soft beds to sleep on. Help into and out of the vehicle and onto and off of the bed. :)
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Exercise and supplements are key. Besides swimming a great way to build up the muscles in the legs is by running in the sand. It works sooo well. I do know that x-rays from when Bear was 6 months (when we found out about his probs.) to now are dramatically different. He is so solid now. I am so pleased to have seen the difference in him.
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HS and ED ae the plague of large breeds. When we first started with our Boerboels, about 30% of the ones we bought had HD and 25% had ED.
We decided to try PennHIP as a breeding tool in order to improve the problem. 6 years down the line and 3 generations later we can see an improvement.
The first dogs we imported from South Africa had very loose hips with a high probability of developing HD. The pups we have that have been tested, have results that are within the best 10% for our race.
Regards
Shaun
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if what they saw was cloudy, it could have been pano, could have been but might not.
pano looks like white clouds.
it would be good to ofa them to see where they are right now.
good to hear he is doing well.
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I just wanted to throw in my two cents on this thread - whether your Bear, or any other big dog actually proves to be dysplastic or not, a good thing to have them on is Glucosamine - already mentioned by one poster (Cosequin). Every big dog can use the assistance of all natural glucosamine since they typically lack sufficient amounts of it already in their joints. As they age, it will only decline (just like us). The orthopedic surgeons I know argue that every big dog should be on glucosamine starting at 4-5 months and remain on it for life. My Berner has been on it and she is a year old now - she is the most athletic Berner I have ever seen and I hope it keeps her in top shape. My Golden, who is dysplastic in both elbows AND has two luxating patellas, has been on it since she was 9 months old. I know of her joint problems because I had her certified by the OFA at two years of age - this is my only indicator however as she has never limped a day in her life. Now the OFA can be wrong, and only time will tell - but with both elbows and knees certified as less than stellar, it is unlikely. In time, she will surely be arthritic but so far, at age 4, she is a highly active jumper and shows no signs.
So the other point here is that a dog can be dysplastic but also be asymptomatic, as in my Golden's case. If a dog is actually limping, it is a sign that it is severe - or else severe pano (growing pains) and pretty far along.
I would never give my dog Rimadyl...not for anything until they are on their death bed - that is a nasty drug and I have seen too many dogs die from it - be sure to always research the drugs you're given before giving them - as vets today do not provide you with side effects and cautionary sheets like we receive from pharmacists.
If anyone has a dog that is dysplastic or arthritic, I also highly recommend hyaluronic acid - I use Synthovial 7 since it is in liquid form and more readily assimilated - but it has worked wonders on my own stiff knees and I believe my Golden's mobility. It is naturally occuring in our bodies as well and diminishes as we age - it is attributed to arthritis setting in (as well as wrinkles and loss of vision). There are natural pain killers out there far safer, and more effective than an ugly drug like Rimadyl - always try them first before resorting to something like that.
Hope Bear proves out to only have growing pains.....defi nitely get him certified by the OFA however.
Good luck!