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BPO Training Forum => Behavior, Housebreaking, Obedience => : krismark July 29, 2006, 07:30:29 PM
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I need help. I don't know what to do. I'll give a little background on these two first.
Watson:
He is a severely hyper GSP/Weim mix. He is very very sweet and affetionate. He seems to get hurt a lot doing stupid stuff and he has always let us clean his wounds without complaining. However, one time all three of our dogs got out of the yard for a while, and later in the day Watson was sleeping on my legs. I moved my legs and Watson growled. I was confused because he had never done that before. We both got off the couch and I noticed that he had a bunch of bite wounds all over his chest. As I was touching the wounds, out of nowhere, he bit my face (I don't think he even growled) and I ended up in the emergency room. After he bit me he was very submissive. Since then he has never bitten anyone, but he has since been very viscious toward strange/new dogs if they sniff him. He had notdone that before the day he bit me. He has growled at me a few times when I try to move him when he is sleeping, but I grab his muzzle and scold him, which puts him back in line. He is still very sweet and lets me do basically anything I want to him with no grumbling. For example he has a cyst on his eyelid which he lets me squeeze the junk out of it when it gets bigger. He also lets me bathe him, clip his nails, pick at his teeth, anything else I might feel like doing.
Zero:
He has always been very quiet and not very affectionate (but he likes to get affection). My family and friends make fun of us and call Zero abused because he doesn't get the same level of affection as our other dogs, but that is mainly because he is not a slobbery, kissy, playful dog. He will not pick up a ball or play games with people. He absolutely refuses to give kisses, but when it's dinner time he will get all crazy and sometimes he'll lick my hand, which cracks me up. He has never bitten any humans, but he does have hip problems, so if anyone or anything touches he back end while he is laying down he will snap at them, which is understandable .
Zero and Watson together:
Zero and Watson have been wrestling buddies ever since they have been together and until somewhat recently it has always just been playing. For the last year or so...their playing seems to go a little too far sometimes. I can't really tell who is taking it too far though. They just start snapping at each other instead of playing. It has never resulted in any biting.
The problem now
A few days ago one of the dogs (most likely my hunter, Gabriel) killed a rabbit in the yard. Zero ate most of the rabbit. He tried to come inside with it but I managed to push him back out. When he did come in later, his muzzle was all coated in dirt like maybe he buried it. I let all three dogs out a little later and out of nowhere Zero and Watson are fighting. I don't know exactly what made me think Zero started it, but it just seemed that way. I had to turn on the hose and spray them to get them apart. Watson ran in the house and kind of stayed there and Zero tried to follow him. I had to keep hosing him down to keep him away. He wasn't growling or anything at this point, but he still had a "determined" look. I went inside and Watson was bleeding. His ear had several lacerations and he seemed pretty scared. He let me clean them. I kept them seperated for the rest of the day, and when we put them together later they seemed fine. I don't know what happened to cause the fight, but I think maybe Watson might have found some of the rabbit and gotten near it, makeing Zero mad.
There haven't been any problems for a few days, then today I let them out and I hear a snarl. It sounded like Zero and Watson was running away from him when I turned around. When I got home later today I noticed blood on my bed. Watson has a pretty deep puncture on the base of his neck. He seemed very clingy and not quite his hyper/happy self. I don't know if theis hapeened earlier with the snarl, or sometime when I wasn't home. The puncture was very wet (this is about 7 hours after the snarl incident this afternoon) and it is not in a spot where he can lick it.
My Dillema
I don't know what to do about this. I have been worried about Watson biting again since he bit me, and his agression toward strange dogs, but he has really given me no other reason to worry. He is about the most submissive dog you could ask for. I have no real way to know how these fights are starting and who is to blame, but my gut reaction is that Zero was the aggressor. Also, he is not getting hurt. I am really afraid that Zero will hurt Watson again, and the possibility that it might happen while I'm gone is very scary. However, I'm araid if I do something drastic with Zero, I will find out that Watson was really the problem. Although, like I said, Watson is the one getting hurt here so I have a strong feeling that Zero is the aggressor.
Right now they are both peacefully sleeping next to each other. What do I do? I can't handle not knowing if one of my dogs might get seriously hurt by another one. It is really unnerving.
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I'm bumping this. Search other threads on the board. There have been a couple that have talked about dominance issues, who's alpha, and that sounds like what this is. You didn't say how old they are, that is important. The other threads have a lot of good ideas and points made. Sorry but I'm walking out the door or I would have found what I'm talking about. Good luck
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I wish I could give you some advise but I have never had a situation like this. The only thing I could suggest is to keep them seperated when you leave the house. At least then you won't have to worry about coming home to a seriously injured dog.
I'm sure someone else will come along with more advise for you and good luck. I hope you can get this worked out.
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I'm bumping this. Search other threads on the board. There have been a couple that have talked about dominance issues, who's alpha, and that sounds like what this is. You didn't say how old they are, that is important. The other threads have a lot of good ideas and points made. Sorry but I'm walking out the door or I would have found what I'm talking about. Good luck
I did a search, and didn't find a whole lot. I'll keep trying though. I just realized that there is a behavior forum, which is where I should have posted this. Whoops! :-\
Zero is 7 years old and Watson is about 4 or 5. They have been together for about 3 years.
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I'm sure that there is someone here who can give you some advice. I wish that I could, but I will say that the first thing that I thought when you were talking about Watson biting was that he was showing fear aggression. Not aggressive in the way that we think about it, but he is just become so frightened in certain instances that he lashes out.
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Bump
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bump
Sofia
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I don't have a whole lot of advice to give you, but I'll try some. My two girls are only 2 months apart in age and sometimes their rough playing sounds like it gets a little out of hand. They've never hurt each other, as in made the other bleed or anything, but sometimes it sounds pretty fierce. I just know the difference in listening to them. If I feel I need to, I get on to them and break them up just by going out there and telling them both "No." Make sure both your dogs get disciplined when this happens. There may be one aggressor, but it takes to have a squabble. By disciplined, I mean telling them "NO!" Let then know that it is not okay with you that they are fighting. They may choose to simply avoid each other a bit more if they know that fighting means making their master unhappy. I don't know how much this will help you, but my main point is that you are their master and it is not okay with you that they are fighting. So show them that. If this doesn't help, I don't really know what other steps you should take. But I sincerely hope you have no more problems. Sorry this is happening! :-\
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When they play fight and it starts to get a little too fierce, I always stop it. These fights are not starting with any kind of playing. They seem pretty much unprovoked, which is scary. The only thing I can think of that might have made this happen is that we have been giving Zero more attention that usual lately (which still is less than the other dogs get because he does not have a cuddly personality). Maybe the attention is making him think he's Alpha. I plan on doing some obedience with him, but i just have a feeling that it won't help...just based on his personality.
I am afraid I am going to come home to a bloody mess or something even worse if this continues.
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I feel for you in this situtation,
1st I would keep them seperate when you are not home,just for your own peice of mind.
2nt for the time being I would not let them play fight at all.
Make them understand that is not allowed.You are the alpha leader,YOU make the rules.
Once that is established things should clam down.and it should always be up to you what theyare allowed and not allowed to do.
Both or all should be treated the same.UNDER you.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
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Check out the forum link below entitled "raising multiple dogs in the same house" - it will give you find the answers you need:
http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php/Cat/0/Board/94
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Yaz, great link.
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Thanks - it is a wonderful site for dealing with any dog behavior issues - it may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I find the advice I have received over the years very helpful when training my dogs.
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For a year and a half my boys Memphis (great dane) and Zero (bull Terrier) got along... Come winter 05 Zero seemed to play a bit more rough, and would bite at memphis neck skin, trying to get memphis to play (Memphis NEVER plays). but more zero did this the more angry memphis would get, and it would start fights... and we have had zero injured in the face, ears, nose and neck. memphis only gets it in the Legs (as thats only where zero can get him). There was ONE major fight, when we still had Tribute, zero wanted outside, but memphis was laying infront of the door, so Zero grabbed memphis by the ankle and wouldnt let go... tribute jumped into this as well, tearing Memphis ear... i got tribute off easily. after bout 5 minutes of trying to pull zero off memphis, memphis ended up with a nasty leg injury, very swollen ankle, and what looked to be a broken toe... luckily, it wasnt broken :) but it was a really bad fight none the less... We can NOT keep them lose in the house together. we have baby gate seperating them.... the only time they are able to be together is on a leash going for walks... if zero approaches Memphis, memphis will growl and snap, then zero attacks...
I think the best for you is to seperate them as well, before its too late and you end up with a nasty fight on your hands....
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Zero is your old boy? He may be tired of the younger dogs acting goofy around him. I'd work on NILF with him to begin with and your pup who has all the bites and make it part of their daily routine. Mom is in charge :)Â
Zero is about 7, but the reason I mentioned that he is getting more attention lately is becaue he has actually been more playful. I'm nt sure exactly why. As far as the dogs playing together, I haven't seen them playfighting since the first incident. Something must have changed between them.
My dogs are not on NILF, but they do have to sit and stay for thier food until I say "release." I don't always make them sit for affection though. I'm going to work on that part. I also used to give scraps or let them lick plates....but I stopped that about 3 or 4 months ago.
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Oh, and just so everyone knows, all of these boys are neutered.
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you[/i] have somehow disturbed the pack order through your behavior. One of the biggest problems in multiple dog households is the humans. When one dog asserts his dominance over the other, possibly even injuring the more submissive dog, our gut reaction is to fawn over the "underdog" and to scold the aggressor. What happens when we do this is the dogs are saying to themselves, "Oh crap! I thought we had this worked out with that scuffle, but now we're going to have to go at it again!"
Holly
This is so true! I kept butting in with McDougal and Binky b/c I felt so bad for McD always being picked on and having to be last for everything. I finally just let things take their course and things have settled down quite a bit!
Good luck with having everyone get along. I also think these little "issues" go in cycles. Sometimes Binky and McD are fighting all the time, then it stops, starts again, etc.
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you[/i] have somehow disturbed the pack order through your behavior. One of the biggest problems in multiple dog households is the humans. When one dog asserts his dominance over the other, possibly even injuring the more submissive dog, our gut reaction is to fawn over the "underdog" and to scold the aggressor. What happens when we do this is the dogs are saying to themselves, "Oh crap! I thought we had this worked out with that scuffle, but now we're going to have to go at it again!"
Holly
This is so true! I kept butting in with McDougal and Binky b/c I felt so bad for McD always being picked on and having to be last for everything. I finally just let things take their course and things have settled down quite a bit!
Good luck with having everyone get along. I also think these little "issues" go in cycles. Sometimes Binky and McD are fighting all the time, then it stops, starts again, etc.
I agree totally...It is very difficult not to let emotions role though!...I hesitated to even chime in on this thread because alot of people think I am barbaric or uncaring (which those of you who know me know it far from the truth)...I let Sam & Pippin work it out within MY tolerance level...Like there is no fighting allowed in the house...The two fights I did break up were completely out of my tolerence level as neither of them were going to give & not only was I worried for their well being...Honest ly, I had visions of an emergency vet visit running through my head...I went through a nasty fight stage with Sam & Pippin & it did work out but I do expect it again oneday when there might be a challenge for dominate position between the dogs...I am pack leader yes...but they establish pecking order from there...Same as it happens in nature...I believe that continuos interuption of the dogs trying to work out their place will lead to pent up frustration & a doozy of a fight when I am not here to interviene...O nly my humble opinion of coarse but right now we have tranquility in the zoo!...Good luck with your pack! :)
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I've been looking into this very issue lately for a friend, and I've learned some interesting stuff. Here are a few of the highlights . . .
One thing to consider is whether you have somehow disturbed the pack order through your behavior. One of the biggest problems in multiple dog households is the humans. When one dog asserts his dominance over the other, possibly even injuring the more submissive dog, our gut reaction is to fawn over the "underdog" and to scold the aggressor. What happens when we do this is the dogs are saying to themselves, "Oh crap! I thought we had this worked out with that scuffle, but now we're going to have to go at it again!"
Assuming that you are the "alpha"--the controller of resources that all of the dogs look to for guidance--your actions do a lot to help affirm the rest of the pack order, as well. It is in our human nature to feel bad about giving one dog more attention or lovin' than the others, but this actually helps keep pack order straight.Â
In your case, you might have a case of Zero's position faltering because of his age and his bad hips. Watson may see this as his chance to seize a higher position and may be testing the waters. Zero's aggression may simply be in response to Watson's advances. If you think this might be the case, be careful not to inadvertently reinforce Watson's attempts. If Zero shows dominance, you can scold inappropriate behavior (biting or growling), but as soon as he backs down, praise him and ignore Watson.
While you are doing the NILF stuff that Melissa described, make sure that you reinforce the pack order, as well. You are alpha, but the top real dog should get fed first, get let out first, and get recognized first when you get home. Your affirmation of pack order helps keep things straight amongst the critters.
I hope this helps.
Holly
This is very helpful, thank you Holly, I'm sure I'll be referring to this soon too.
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Ok, so what about in our situation? I don't want to let the dogs "argue it out" because Tsu is 12 and weighs 30#. Boudreaux would pummel her at his whopping 73#. They do "argue" with teeth barred and snarling, but no real contact. Do I start treating Boudreaux as the alpha of the two or do I still let them work it out? I have been treating Tsu as the alpha.
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I'm having a similar issue with my two 4 month old aussies, both male, scheduled for neutering tomorrow.
Found this 8 page article at veterinary.com under the subheadingsÂ
 Home » Dogs » Canine Behavior Series » Fighting Dogs
For some reason I can't get the URL to post properly
~Ed
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Really I think everyone's personal experience warrants looking at and discussing. What works for my dogs may be disaterous for someone else's dogs. I love all the suggestions! Keep 'em coming :)
How old is Tsu? Is she okay with not being alpha? To describe Mowglie and what worked with him is this: He didn't seem to WANT to be alpha. But he felt like something needed to give so he stood up and asserted himself and was immediately corrected and not allowed to repeat the incident. In fact, we've not let him and Bava be with one another or touch one another since then. He and Sophie play together fine, but Bava is such a pushover, I'd be afraid Mowglie would try to play big dog on the block with him again and I don't think Bava would "get it". One of them might get hurt. We let Bava and Sophie play and Mowglie and Sophie play. We can walk all three of them together with one of us taking the two Newfs and the other person taking the Mowglie ;)
For male on male...I'd neuter one or both if your dogs weren't going to be breeding or showing, female on female the same, female/male the same.
I admit when Bava gets ganged up on by Sophie who does it SO well, I feel bad for him and eventually do get up and stop her advances to give him a break. He obviously likes it though because he'll get up after I move away and go up to her for some more. Both of them are relentless (this is just play btw, no fighting) They too show a LOT of teeth, there's a lot of growling, moaning, yipping, woofing and body slamming going on.
Lisa said something to me one afternoon that clicked....whe n Sugar Bear and Dixie get going, she'll get up and walk out of the room. I turn my back on them and do something else. It seems to me they act worse if I'm watching them or somewhere close by.
All of mine are "fixed" btw.
Yup,me leaving the area tends to downsize the attitudes with my guys too...& I agree that you ahve to find what works with your dogs...take the advise you can use & leave the rest...Obvious ly we can't let an old dog get hurt by a younger & stronger dog becuae even if we follow what happens in nature....this is not nature...these aren't wolfs...& we don't want any of our fur friends getting hurt!...I have a friend that gives a low voiced "knock it off" when her dogs are posturing ateach other...She lets them know by doing this that it is not acceptble to ehr & she's had good luck with it...She doesn't make a big deal of it just lets them know it's not o.k. with her while keeping an eye on things.
You know, I always felt so bad for sam because Pippin would bully him around & I'd get all "oh poor Sammy...bad Pippin"!...Ya' know?...Until the day I noticed that sam was, beyond any doubt, pushing Pippin's buttons...That's when I said, "well you're on your own then butthead!" ;D Funny, things calmed down alot after that. ;D
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In your case, you might have a case of Zero's position faltering because of his age and his bad hips. Watson may see this as his chance to seize a higher position and may be testing the waters. Zero's aggression may simply be in response to Watson's advances. If you think this might be the case, be careful not to inadvertently reinforce Watson's attempts. If Zero shows dominance, you can scold inappropriate behavior (biting or growling), but as soon as he backs down, praise him and ignore Watson.
Holly
I actually think it might be the exact opposite of that. Zero used to get very little attention, but has been getting more recently. I think we have made him think that he can push his way to the top. I have been pretty much ignoring him the last few days This morning they were play fighting and everything seemed fine.
It is very hard to tell what the "order" is in my house, but as far as attention goes, Gabriel is first, then Watson, and Zero last. Watson is a daddy's boy, and he gets a lot of attention from him, but all of the dogs are "under" me. If I am not feeling well and go sleep on the couch for example...Mark ends up with the entire king sized bed to himself and I will have dogs piled around me near the couch.
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How old is Tsu? Is she okay with not being alpha? To describe Mowglie and what worked with him is this: He didn't seem to WANT to be alpha. But he felt like something needed to give so he stood up and asserted himself and was immediately corrected and not allowed to repeat the incident. In fact, we've not let him and Bava be with one another or touch one another since then. He and Sophie play together fine, but Bava is such a pushover, I'd be afraid Mowglie would try to play big dog on the block with him again and I don't think Bava would "get it". One of them might get hurt. We let Bava and Sophie play and Mowglie and Sophie play. We can walk all three of them together with one of us taking the two Newfs and the other person taking the Mowglie ;)
Well it only seems to happen when one of two things is going on.
1. Boudreaux is acting like an idiot younger brother and is yapping and jumping in her face.
2. There is food in the area. I don't feed B people food at all and Tsu only gets it in her food bowl because she is becoming totally picky in her older age. When Zac is eating in his high chair or after he is done, if there are any crumbs there can be trouble. Even if we are eating and Boudreaux is near one of us it is like Tsu is afraid B will get some and she gets snotty.Â
Like I said, there is no damage done, I try to watch and make sure that, while teeth are barred and snarling, there is no actual biting going on. I yell at them but try my best not to physically intervene since there isn't actual biting. When this happens DH will put B down and call Tsu over to stand by him...I know it is so he will see she is dominate...is this the right thing to do?
 Â
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Melissa,
Just fixing your link!
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/