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BPO Training Forum => Behavior, Housebreaking, Obedience => : Miranda August 31, 2006, 06:49:10 AM
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From today's NY Times:
PACK OF LIES
With a compelling personal story as the illegal immigrant made good because of his uncanny ability to understand dogs, Cesar Millan has taken the world of canine behavior — or rather misbehavior — by storm. He has the top-rated program, “Dog Whisperer,” on the National Geographic Channel, a best-selling book and a devoted following, and he has been the subject of several glowing magazine articles.
He is even preparing to release his own “Illusion” collar and leash set, named for his wife and designed to better allow people to walk their dogs the “Cesar way” — at close heel, under strict control.
Essentially, National Geographic and Cesar Millan have cleverly repackaged and promoted a simplistic view of the dog’s social structure and constructed around it a one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter approach to dog training. In Mr. Millan’s world, dog behavioral problems result from a failure of the human to be the “pack leader,” to dominate the dog (a wolf by any other name) completely.
While Mr. Millan rejects hitting and yelling at dogs during training, his confrontationa l methods include physical and psychological intimidation, like finger jabs, choke collars, extended sessions on a treadmill and what is called flooding, or overwhelming the animal with the thing it fears. Compared with some training devices still in use — whips and cattle prods, for example — these are mild, but combined with a lack of positive reinforcement or rewards, they place Mr. Millan firmly in a long tradition of punitive dog trainers.
Mr. Millan brings his pastiche of animal behaviorism and pop psychology into millions of homes a week. He’s a charming, one-man wrecking ball directed at 40 years of progress in understanding and shaping dog behavior and in developing nonpunitive, reward-based training programs, which have led to seeing each dog as an individual, to understand what motivates it, what frightens it and what its talents and limitations are. Building on strengths and working around and through weaknesses, these trainers and specialists in animal behavior often work wonders with their dogs, but it takes time.
Mr. Millan supposedly delivers fast results. His mantra is “exercise, discipline, affection,” where discipline means “rules, boundaries, limitations.” Rewards are absent and praise scarce, presumably because they will upset the state of calm submission Mr. Millan wants in his dogs. Corrections abound as animals are forced to submit or face their fear, even if doing so panics them.
Mr. Millan builds his philosophy from a simplistic conception of the dog’s “natural” pack, controlled by a dominant alpha animal (usually male). In his scheme, that leader is the human, which leads to the conclusion that all behavior problems in dogs derive from the failure of the owner or owners to dominate. (Conveniently, by this logic, if Mr. Millan’s intervention doesn’t produce lasting results, it is the owner’s fault.)
Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,” Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.”
Mr. Millan’s sexism is laughable; his ethology is outdated.
The notion of the “alpha pack leader” dominating all other pack members is derived from studies of captive packs of unrelated wolves and thus bears no relationship to the social structure of natural packs, according to L. David Mech, one of the world’s leading wolf experts. In the wild, the alpha wolves are merely the breeding pair, and the pack is generally comprised of their juvenile offspring and pups.
“The typical wolf pack,” Dr. Mech wrote in The Canadian Journal of Zoology in 1999, “is a family, with the adult parents guiding the activities of a group in a division-of-labor system.” In a natural wolf pack, “dominance contests with other wolves are rare, if they exist at all,” he writes.
That’s a far cry from the dominance model that Mr. Millan attributes to the innate need of dogs by way of wolves.
Unlike their wolf forebears, dogs exist in human society. They have been selectively bred for 15,000 or more years to live with people. Studies have shown that almost from birth they are attentive to people, and that most are eager to please, given proper instruction and encouragement.
But sometimes the relationship goes very wrong, and it is time to call on a professional.
Aggression is perhaps the most significant of the behavioral problems that may afflict more than 20 percent of the nation’s 65 million dogs, because it can lead to injury and death. Mr. Millan often treats aggression by forcing the dog to exercise extensively on a treadmill, by asserting his authority over the dog by rolling it on its back in the “alpha rollover,” and through other forms of intimidation, including exposure to his pack of dogs.
Forcefully rolling a big dog on its back was once recommended as a way to establish dominance, but it is now recognized as a good way to get bitten. People are advised not to try it. In fact, many animal behaviorists believe that in the long run meeting aggression with aggression breeds more aggression.
More important, aggression often has underlying medical causes that might not be readily apparent — hip dysplasia or some other hidden physical ailment that causes the dog to bite out of pain; hereditary forms of sudden rage that require a medical history and genealogy to diagnose; inadequate blood flow to the brain or a congenital brain malformation that produces aggression and can only be uncovered through a medical examination. Veterinary behaviorists, having found that many aggressive dogs suffer from low levels of serotonin, have had success in treating such dogs with fluoxetine (the drug better known as Prozac).
Properly treating aggression, phobias, anxiety and fears from the start can literally save time and money. Mr. Millan’s quick fix might make for good television and might even produce lasting results in some cases. But it flies in the face of what professional animal behaviorists — either trained and certified veterinarians or ethologists — have learned about normal and abnormal behavior in dogs.
By MARK DERR
Published: August 31, 2006
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Well I don't particularly care what any journalist has to say about Cesar. I appreciate his charm, I am not offended by him saying anything about women being emotional, and I can see that he has a good heart and he truly cares about dogs. Plus he promotes spaying, neutering, and rescuing. :)
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Nobody has any thoughts about Cesar?
Personally, I love him. I've used quite a few of his techniques with my dogs and they work really well with Kingsley...the verdict's still out on Laika. Of course, quite a few of his techniques I'd never dream of trying, but in extreme cases, I can see where they're neccessary.
Sorry, when I started to type this nobody had responded yet :P
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I love him! :D (Sometimes I even think I have a crush on him! Shhh!!! ;))
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Ceasar is great, although some of his methods are not the best for the dogs mentality...fo r instance...dog scared of swimming so he put a slip leash on the dog and jumped in the pool with the dog.... that isn't fair to the dog....i understand his mentality as a trainer myself, although somethings are just straight out cruel.
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HAHAHAHA Justin gets SO mad at me because I'm completely addicted to his show ;D
I mainly love him so much because like you said, he truly cares about the dogs. He wants the best for them, I mean, just look at his pack! All of them were rescues (or he's dogsitting them). And ever since I started walking Kingsley like he says to, it's like he's a whole new dog outside the house!
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I do love the way he walks the dogs...it is perfect...ther e is always time for a walk...but structured walks are a definite end to those sometimes had to deal with walks. I can't wait to go to his seminar!!!
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I'm INSANELY jealous of you right now!!! Sneak in a camcorder!!!
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lol.....It is because of ignorant owners that Ceasar is even to exist.... I have all of his things... It is funny... do to following his techniques i can now train any dog in under 5 minutes to sit, down,stay, and come, as well as not pull on a leash...at least an introduction to them all. It is so easy to work like he does... i just dont care with how he deals with fearfulness
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:o Wow, that artical is pretty scathing! Sounds like he is jealous of Cesar. I personally like Cesar and I too, have tried some of his techniques with success. I like his idea of the use of energy and I have found that very helpfull with Joey. And his supposed comment about women, (I haven't heard it for myself), about being wired differently... we are, and I'm proud of it. I pretty sure that's the way nature intended it...LOL. ;)In any case, as the old addage goes, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water".
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his book is full of comments like that...althoug h being female myself ... he isn't lying.....lol we are just naturally more emotional then most men... not all but most
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Yeah, some of his fear episodes are a little rough. I think he's just thinking that a few minutes of the dog completely freaking out is better than an entire lifetime of that dog being scared. I dunno, I'm not a trainer, so I wouldn't know how to do it!
I don't like how the author says that Cesar has designed a one size fits all approach to training, it's just that a lot of behavioral problems, especially those that Cesar deals with, are caused by dominance problems!!
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Me too! I would love to be there ;D
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that is very true. the way that i train goes towards that particular dog, not the owner. Every dog learns differently. And surprisingly enough that ceasar says no to the dog.... now in the condo complex i am in with jaz... i tell her no for nipping..i am told by my neighbors i am mean to her because i said no...(mind you she is deaf) but still.....125 puppy....nippi ng... leads to an older...full grown nipping. So people in my condo don't ever tell there dog no....and they bark, take over the house...and the dog is not behaved at all... so in my neck of the woods no one ever says no...except me....
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I agree and that's one of the reasons I have found Cesar so helpfull. My Joey is a very headstrong, dominant dog. I knew I needed help and things are much improved with Joey's behavior now with the use of some of his techniques.
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Ugh I get so mad at people here. Laika is VERY head-strong, and like I've said before, VERY hard to deal with on the leash. A lot of times, the only way to get her attention is to "take her down" (make her lay down). Neither Justin or I would EVER hurt her, we know how to take her down gently, but it's one of those things where we have to do SOMETHING or else she'd be dragging us clear down the road. But the neighbors here think we're horrible abusive owners. I just want to point out to them that she's only half-grown now, and if this behavior continues, we're going to have some problems...and we're not hurting her!!! Argh!! I keep waiting for the SPCA to knock on my door and say they've had a complaint...th en I'll invite them in and show them what spoiled dogs I have...
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if people do this with there pets... i can't imagine what there kids turn out to be......I have never hurt/hit jaz, it is pointless...sh e has no idea about anything..she would just shake it off and go on in life.
The method of walking on the treadmill that ceasar uses is the best idea yet. I can go for a walk with jaz...but it is bad for the joints..where using the tread mill she can go faster and have less impact on her joints. I can't wait to get a treadmill... lol ... not for me though.. just the dog...lol
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I guess I'm gonna be a bit against the grain. :-\ From what I've seen and heard of Cesar Millan, personally I'm not as impressed as everyone else seems to be. My basis for dog training is learn everything and use and apply what works for that particular dog. That and my personal dog/kid training mantra "Interrupt, Redirect & Praise". So if he's working for people, I think that's good. Much better that people are attempting to control their dogs nowadays. As far as my thoughts on his methods, well I agree with a close friend that says, "He's a good salesman." ;)
I just don't like how he is getting idolized and being quoted as the be and end all of dogtraining everywhere I turn. I personally think there are many trainers out there who are much better than he is, he's just one of the most publicised at the moment. Eh, bien. Money talks.
Sorry, jmho. :)
~moni
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no i agree with you as well... like i said before some of his methods need to be improved on...the only thing i like is the walk...and that is it...
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I agree that he is popular, anyone would be if they had an entertaining tv show... but... I have never heard of anyone "idolizing" him or calling him the "be-all-end-all" of dog trainers. I have actually read a really bad review of his book, and I have probably noticed more negative publicity on him than positive.
I think the big picture is important with someone like Cesar Millan. He is giving people hope who were formerly ready to give up on their dog. And his most basic advice-- take your dog on long walks daily!!! There are a lot of people who needed to hear that, and I am betting that because of him, there are dogs in this country who are becoming more balanced and being exercised more because of folks being inspired by his show.
These people might not have consulted a dog trainer on their own, or bought a dog training book, or found out about Turid Rugaas or Ian Dunbar or Jean Donaldson. But these people WILL watch tv. And now their mind is on dog training, because they can relate to the people on the show. Honestly I'm just glad that dog training is becoming popular!!! There are trainers I like better than Cesar, sure, but they don't have a show that comes on 8 times a week to inspire me!!!! ;)
(edited for spelling)
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If you listen to his tagline, Cesar DOESN'T train dogs.
He trains PEOPLE.
The writer of the NYT article has an enormous Manhattan cockroach up his fundment--probably because he's misapplying the techniques he's tried to learn from watching the show. (I'd bet REAL MONEY on that.) He's also probably a trainer who's losing his own real money because people are being successful working with their dogs using Cesar's techniques!
Whether Cesar's "pack theory" has anything to do with how a dog thinks is entirely beside the point. I'm quite sure that wolves, coyotes, dingos, and dogs have a whole other way of thinking, and that as a human being, I'm going to have a very limited understanding of that mode.
The point is, most people DON'T GET THAT. The vast majority of people--particularly dog owners--have the mistaken idea that the way animals think is similar to the way humans think, but at a very, very primitive level. Most humans think "oh, the dog is like a 3 year old" and the proceed to act as if their 7 year old terrier terror is a human toddler, instead of a middle aged dog!
The "pack leader" is a Human thought. So is Alpha. They're absolutely arbitrary, entirely artificial concepts that allow the human mind to delineate the very clear difference between DOG as being and HUMAN as being. The issues that Cesar deals with are clearly situations where Human mind/emotional constructs are not working for Dog. An interface concept--Pack Leader--is required to bridge that gap.
By teaching Human (who IS the problem, 98% of the time! ::)) that there IS a difference and giving them an interface or translation concept to work with Dog, it becomes possible for Human and Dog to become partners.
We don't understand how Dog is thinking--anymore than Dog understands how we're thinking. I suspect that Dog-kind is generally convinced that Humankind is completely off our rockers, and we need to be protected from ourselves--not to mention from Wolf-kind, Bear-kind and the rest of the animal kingdom!
As far as Cesar's "Exercise, Discipline, Affection" technique, that's ALSO about human concepts. It's not all that different from the favorite technique on BPO, the NILIF plan. Affection is just one of the rewards that has to be earned.
Cesar Milan isn't the only dog trainer around, but he's certainly the most successful HUMAN trainer I've ever seen. Animal behaviorists have their place, but are very often unnecessary if you just follow a consistent EDA or NILIF plan, in my opinion.
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Just like with parenting my skin kids, I take the advise I can use & agree with & leave the rest. :)
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Just like with parenting my skin kids, I take the advise I can use & agree with & leave the rest. :)
Exaaaaaaaactly . No dog trainer is perfect, just like no dog is perfect. This is all too obvious to me right now as I listen to my dogs and the neighbor dogs "playing"...which is running up and down the fence barking at each other. I'm glad it's not my dog that has the really loud howling :)
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I like what I've heard from him so far. I haven't read his book or seen his show, I've only seen him "guest starring" on other shows.
But in reference to putting the dog on its back. I've talked to a few trainers/breeders/behaviorists and they all have similar suggestions. Like when they are pups, pick them up and turn them over on their back as you carry them like babies, you don't want them to fight you. I wish I would have known that when Navarre was a pup and he would fight me, instead of learning this when he was 6 months old and 80 lbs and I had to wrestle him to the floor and get him in a submissive position!! But by the time he was 130 lbs all I had to do was give him "the look" and point to were he needed to lay down, without saying a word...and I'm a woman!
And the point on affection and treats....Nava rre didn't like treats, affection I'm good with, but like ya'll have said you do what works for the dog, you take some advice and not some of the other. I think Cesar got lucky, he isn't anymore talented than some others out there, he was at the right place at the right time.
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My 2 cents,I like Ceasar,and like someone lese said he trains people not dogs.
Other than some he boards at his facility,all of those dogs were considered hopeless and were going to be put down,because trainers and others considered them too dangerous,and couldn't be helped.
If anyone were to watch the show he really doesn't do training with the dog.In fact he says very little to the dog.And he is very good at reading dogs.Not everyone is.
Dogs may not be wolves,but they are pack animals and in every pack there is a leader.
A lot of people don't like him because he says things that people don't want to hear.
Like they (dogs) are not children in fur coats.They are dogs.I call mine my fur kids,but in no way do I mean to imply that they are like human kids.
I prefer the fur kids.But even children need boundaries,and limits.
Anyway I like him,and most of what he does is bring a little comon sense and reality in to peoples lives where there dog is concerned.
Tricia and the fur kids
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I really like Cesar. As a woman, I know that I tend to nurture. When I had my previous dog, when she was upset or fearful, I would comfort her. It totally makes sense now that it only encourages the behavior. He teaches us humans how to think differently and respond differently to help mold the behavior that we desire. I think that as humans, we are great at creating dogs that are neurotic (present self included).
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The dog whisperer guy cheats...has anyone seen the episode with the black shepherd that hated strangers and their cat...
did anyone notice he put an electric collar on the dog and forced the dog to like him and shocked the dog everytime he acknowledged the cat...He never once mentions the collar and even hides the controller in his hand...
I dont know what level that collar was on but both my dogs where electric collars for recall purposes and well neither one ever screamed wearing one....that dog screamed and tried everything possible to leave the room... he even tried crawling under the ottomon...the poor dog was just down right scared to death
he made it like he was using his body language when in fact he was sitting there shocking the dog...
forcing a dog into submission is very dangerous and will build resentment
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I am not home much, and when I am, not watching much TV, so I knew this guy's name but had never seen him in action. I had been thinking about checking out one of his books, but lately all I have been hearing was negative feedback. I think I will just stick with my tried and true trainer, and let it go with that.
Stella
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We have his book and Brandon is currently reading it, I am not sure which book we have but it concentrates on human energy and how the dog reacts to it. We have been using his walking technique with both girls and let me say they are still mals and like to pull, but one week has gone by and we have been successful at walking them w/out any problems. They now know to sit before leashes go on, sit before they are called to go into the garage and they sit at all stop signs when we tell them to, which is a lot diffent than before, I would have to catch my breath and practically scream to get them to stop. Now it is calm walks down the street, hiking will be different since they will need to be in front for that. I can walk into PetsMart with Nala and she does not jerk my arm off, this is only after 1 week.
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Heh, the PetSmart walk is still one that I have not managed without problems...
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No trainer is perfect and if anyone "idolizes" Cesar than they have serious issues. I do like his show and think he is really good with dogs. We have used some of his techniques and they work. If anything we feel more confident with Lucah...we know that we don't have to be "vicitims" to his behavior. If anything Cesar reminds us who is in charge and to be diligent with your dogs.
I get the biggest laugh when he has to tell people that their dogs are not there children...and they don't want to believe him. But all of this just reminds us how we should act around our dogs in order to make better lives for all.
I have read many behavorist books and all of them can rub a person the wrong way...usually they live on farms and have nothing to do but lecture and train, so they really seem to not think about "working" people with dogs. If even feels like they don't think it's a good idea to have a dog unless you live in a house on a 1/2 acre of land. But still even some of them have useful info...and you have to just weed through it to find stuff you like.
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No trainer is perfect and if anyone "idolizes" Cesar than they have serious issues. I do like his show and think he is really good with dogs. We have used some of his techniques and they work. If anything we feel more confident with Lucah...we know that we don't have to be "vicitims" to his behavior. If anything Cesar reminds us who is in charge and to be diligent with your dogs.
I get the biggest laugh when he has to tell people that their dogs are not there children...and they don't want to believe him. But all of this just reminds us how we should act around our dogs in order to make better lives for all.
I have read many behavorist books and all of them can rub a person the wrong way...usually they live on farms and have nothing to do but lecture and train, so they really seem to not think about "working" people with dogs. If even feels like they don't think it's a good idea to have a dog unless you live in a house on a 1/2 acre of land. But still even some of them have useful info...and you have to just weed through it to find stuff you like.
I couldn't have said it better myself! ;D I always say, "like with raising my children,I take what I can use from the "experts" & leave the rest!
I don't think I got a chance to welcome you to BPO so welcome! :)
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I think my favorite person on his show has been the lady with Beauford, the boxer. She didn't want him to help her train him, she wanted him to find Beauford a girlfriend. He started to try to tell her that Beauford wasn't, in fact, one of her relatives reincarnated, but she wouldn't hear it, so he finally just gave up. At the end of the show, when the female was there, the lady dressed her up in doggy lingerie. Seeing a boxer in a pink silk nightie just cracked me up!
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I think my favorite person on his show has been the lady with Beauford, the boxer. She didn't want him to help her train him, she wanted him to find Beauford a girlfriend. He started to try to tell her that Beauford wasn't, in fact, one of her relatives reincarnated, but she wouldn't hear it, so he finally just gave up. At the end of the show, when the female was there, the lady dressed her up in doggy lingerie. Seeing a boxer in a pink silk nightie just cracked me up!
That one made me cringe pretty big. She had that "look" in her eye like you really couldn't trust her with sharp objects. I do wonder how she could afford such a nice house though. Not that she couldn't hold down a job, but it definately seems like she fell into some money from somewhere.
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I like Caesar Milan. He gives families the confidence enough to become the pack leader. He teaches the people to "lead" their dog. THe key is consistancy and confidence. While not every dog he works with turns around 100% he has given people another option to try. Most of the time that dogs have issues is because we as owners have issues. We let dogs get by with telling us what to do. Dogs have US trained well. Caesar recogizes this and works to change it.
*stands up and applauds Caesar* ;)
shellie~
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I think my favorite person on his show has been the lady with Beauford, the boxer. She didn't want him to help her train him, she wanted him to find Beauford a girlfriend. He started to try to tell her that Beauford wasn't, in fact, one of her relatives reincarnated, but she wouldn't hear it, so he finally just gave up. At the end of the show, when the female was there, the lady dressed her up in doggy lingerie. Seeing a boxer in a pink silk nightie just cracked me up!
That one made me cringe pretty big. She had that "look" in her eye like you really couldn't trust her with sharp objects. I do wonder how she could afford such a nice house though. Not that she couldn't hold down a job, but it definately seems like she fell into some money from somewhere.
I know, she definitely looked like she should've been in a trailer somewhere instead of a nice house. I didn't mean she was my favorite in a I-want-to-be-friends-with-her kind of way, it was more of a I-want-to-laugh-at-her kind of way :)
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I know, she definitely looked like she should've been in a trailer somewhere instead of a nice house. I didn't mean she was my favorite in a I-want-to-be-friends-with-her kind of way, it was more of a I-want-to-laugh-at-her kind of way :)
Careful...careful...I lived in a mobile home for 6 yrs. before we bought our nice house...Try to remember that not everyone comes from the same walk of life who read these forums.
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I also think it's cool how everyone in my neighborhood does the Cesar "shhh" when walking their dogs. I live in a neighborhood with all sorts of incomes and education levels, but it seems like Cesar is just crossing all sorts of lines.
I personally don't do the "shhh", but I do see the point of associating a sound that makes the dog stop doing things.