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BPO Recommended Reading => Book Club & Noteworthy Reads => : moonlitcroatia July 22, 2005, 10:14:54 AM
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I was in a bookstore the other day and happened upon a book about dog aggression. Every time I find something, of course, I read it to attempt to find an answer to the ongoing hatred Greta harbours for Betti.
As I expected, I am glad I didn't "buy" any books regarding this topic. Greta's issue with Betti, I believe, cannot be fixed. This book confirmed that by stating that it is best to have opposite sex dogs and that there is sometimes no way to fix dog-on-dog aggression like what we have in our household.
I could attempt to condition Greta to positive stimuli, etc., but the truth is that the minute I leave the room or enter the room, or any number of other triggers occur, Greta will go for Betti's throat in an attempt to kill her.
So, with situations such as this I've concluded that the dogs must be separated and the aggressor must be muzzled when in situations where she has the potential to attack. After searching relentlessly, it appears this is something that cannot be "fixed" as Greta has a genetic tendency toward dominance and aggression to begin with.
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I have had a similar problem. My big dog, Niki, became extremely aggresive toward my little dog, a small australian shepard mix. One evening after feeding my Rottweiler mix wanted to take away the little dogs feed and grabbed her by the neck and started shaking in order to kill. Now, I have worked with dogs many years and have done some great things but there are some things I am not proud of, however, felt I had no other choice. I may get a lot of flack on this but there is one thing that just pushes my button where I lose it and that is the aggresive, kill action. Sure this is a normal inbred action of a dog that is there because wolves had to kill in order to survive. But humans have bred the wolf to be a pet and altered most of the instinctive behavior within them. Some of this comes out and it is the job of the human to correct it for the safety of other animals, cats, chickens, rabbits and more. Anyway, I totally lose it when a dog goes into the kill mode and I did what had to be done. Grab a stick and end it quite rapidly in the most aggresive way needed. I am not proud of it, but it works. I never had to use that technique again on her and she knows where my breaking point is. This has nothing to do with the "tough love" technique which I am very much against and I have only used it in VERY extreme circumstances. Yell at me if you wish and I hang my head in shame but my dogs are alive and I never have to worry about it again.
Peggy
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I was in a bookstore the other day and happened upon a book about dog aggression. Every time I find something, of course, I read it to attempt to find an answer to the ongoing hatred Greta harbours for Betti.
As I expected, I am glad I didn't "buy" any books regarding this topic. Greta's issue with Betti, I believe, cannot be fixed. This book confirmed that by stating that it is best to have opposite sex dogs and that there is sometimes no way to fix dog-on-dog aggression like what we have in our household.
I could attempt to condition Greta to positive stimuli, etc., but the truth is that the minute I leave the room or enter the room, or any number of other triggers occur, Greta will go for Betti's throat in an attempt to kill her.
So, with situations such as this I've concluded that the dogs must be separated and the aggressor must be muzzled when in situations where she has the potential to attack. After searching relentlessly, it appears this is something that cannot be "fixed" as Greta has a genetic tendency toward dominance and aggression to begin with.
That really bites (excuse the pun) & to put it gently!!...I bet your heart breaks over your situation...Ma y I ask how old both of your dogs are...What kind of circumstances they came from?...WHO they both are?...I have a few ideas...probab ly won't add up to squat but I know you really love your puppers so I have to go with it. :)
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Please remember as I confess, I live on a ranch where pets and livestock MUST get along. I only did in once in her life and have never had to do it again. I love my animals and kindness is my best attribute.
Peggy
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Please remember as I confess, I live on a ranch where pets and livestock MUST get along. I only did in once in her life and have never had to do it again. I love my animals and kindness is my best attribute.
Peggy
K..Peggy...I think you know I love Samson...BUT.. .I have smacked the crap out of his nose & Alpha rolled him more than once...I have what Samson considers livestock also...I call them Russell & Melyssa...When he is trying to bite at them I let them smack his nose too (He has all but quit this by now)...So much better than letting him bite their butts as they try to go over the baby gate! ;) :D B.t.w., Tough love my sweet patootie!...When a dog knows his place he is a much happier dog...I learned this the hard way!!!!!!!!!!!
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As sweet as Dixie Darlin is sometime she need the alpha roll. It is so funny after she has been in trouble she is 90% more loving. I have just started the eye contact thing when she does not do a comand and it is working great.
Lisa
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Well, I must confess, I have not thought of beating her with a stick, but I can see where that may be effective.
Anyway, Greta is 8-years old and Betti is 2-years old. Greta I raised from a pup and she was being trained early on, until fourteen weeks old, for Schutzhund and so they were trying to increase her prey drive. When I took her she went to dog parks and was extremely well socialized and received her CGC and two years of obedience training. But around age three she became aggressive toward "some" other dogs. She wants to kill them.
I thought she would be OK with Betti, because Betti is extremely submissive, but that did not turn out to be the case.
She really intends to kill Betti, so I have to keep them separated and sometimes Greta wears a nylon muzzle when there is not another alternative.
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It's good to know others have the same problem. My male Doberman suddenly became severely aggressive toward my male pug about four to five months ago. Blew me out of the water! When we made the decision to add a Doberman to the mix (we already had a female min pin and the male pug) we spoke to multiple vets, breeders, owners, researched online, etc. Every piece of information gathered said Dobes are wonderful family pets, great with kids and other dogs. Multiple breeders, vets, so on said a male would be best for us since my min pin is the queen and has no intention of giving up the throne (she thinks she is 10 feet tall, no she knows it!) and another female in the mix would be very bad indeed. Klaus (Dobe) and Mr Cheeks (pug) became best friends right off the bat and played together constantly for over a year. So when Klaus began seriously attacking Cheeks it was a real shock to us. The attacks were few at first but over time have increased and now are constant. Lily (min pin) comes to Cheeks defense and so Klaus goes after them both! Now we live in a house divided. The little ones are always separated from the big one. We are putting Klaus back in training but have been told he will probably never get along with Cheeks again.
It's funny that I'm only now finding out this is a common thing for male Dobermans to have male on male aggression no matter the other dogs breed. When originally researching I never came across this info. I don't know that we could have changed things if we had known, but at least we would have been prepared.
As far as doing things you're not proud of: Klaus had Cheeks off the ground and was shaking him and we could not get him to release the pug. Twisting his collar didn't work. Finally my husband grabbed him by the throat and squeezed as hard as he could. Not something I would ever tell anyone to do and at the time I almost blurted out "Don't choke him!" but it worked and my pug is still alive.
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Hmm, now I find that very interesting and I never even really thought about it. In Moonlits and daynakb posts they both state that their dogs became aggressive after a pretty long period of time of relative calm behavior with other dogs. Daynakb states that her dog had a male syndrome but my dog did exactly the same thing and she is a female. My dog got along with the other dog for several years before she turned on her. (both female) Looks lilke moonlits dogs are both female. We all talk about the alpha pack order but why, regardless of gender, do dogs surpress the aggresive instinct until years later? I don't know.
Maybe it is the fighting, nail scraping, hair pulling females??? maybe, huh??? or not
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does this happen to any one what i do is spay her with a water,seems to work,we don't keep her out to long on these hot day,s but it does not take long for a 95 pound saint to heat up then to cool down she hates a pool but like spray mist!!do you remember play misty!good movie!!that is only time she so may that is why? shy get this?Aggression all the rest of the day she is a Angel!! to averyone!!at night morning! only when to hot!! love other dogs!! even cat!! and frog's!!!we have a 5 toy poodle named waffels you should see that!!she lets her eat her food!!! why i dont know!!!!I will post her pic!!! :-*L,M,L,Maggie&Molly@@@ ::) :-* :D ;) :( :-* :P ??? ;D ::) ::) :-*
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ohhh...this is very scarey.. I have 2 Poms and the female is definately alpha...one of my biggest concerns was adding a bigger dog that would be aggressive.... .hope it doens't happen in my house
Timmie
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As far as Klaus is concerned, I have been speaking with many long time Doberman owners, breeders and trainers again. What I am learning now is that this is common for male Dobermans. They reach sexual maturity at about 1 year give or take a few months. At this time their behavior can change dramatically and most male Dobes develop the agression toward other males. Now I'm being told that a responsible breeder should have told me that in the beginning!
It also has somewhat to do with the pack thing. My min pin has retained her alpha status. Funny, the smallest one is the fiercest. Klaus has challenged her and she has fought back with everything she has! She has a split ear to show for it. She won and he respects her as alpha. But now he's attempting to set his place as second in command and therefore going after the pug, who would gladly let him have the position, Cheeks is just happy to exist. We have a trainer we will be working with but he doubts that the males will ever play together again.
I also read a post on pits that their aggressive tendencies can surface after as long as 3 years. I guess it's a varying thing. Sometimes it's the breed, other times the sex of the dog, other times the individual dog.
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It is an interesting situation, but not too hard to understand given the nature of canine social hierarchy. It is just a matter of us humans taking the time to really study our dog's behavior, pack mentality and body language.
One thing I think is that it is difficult for the bigger dogs to get along with smaller dogs because, if you think about it, dogs are not meant to be so small. So, there is this little dog who does not feel like a little dog inside this tiny body still jousting for position in the pack order. Humans bred them this way to be cute, but really, in nature they did not evolve this way on their own.
Everytime a little dog jumps on the owner's (supposed to be alpha) lap the big dog must think this is a dominance thing. I think it is the same as when we have a few big dogs and our queens or kings, such as Greta, see us petting the new arrival and over time become jealous of not receiving our affection first as they think they should.
That is what I think we need to stress in our households: that we are alpha. I am beginning to worry that little Betti will begin instigating fights with Greta. I can see it beginning to happen now. This is something I need to fiercly counteract with rigorous training and assertion, on my part, of the alpha position.
Furthermore, it is a common occurrence amongst young males especially to become aggressive at a certain age. In grizzly and American black bears this occurs around age three when the bear is a young juvenile. At this time they may become predatory toward humans for no apparent reason and if an individual is adept at reading bear body language stalking behavior is apparent and there is nothing to do except fight back.
Greta's aggression toward other dogs occurred at age three for no apparent reason other than perhaps a change in her internal chemistry and the solidifying of her temperment on what I deem to be "genetic" grounds. Lou, on the other hand, developed a variety of fear-aggression toward other dogs (male or female) due to being attacked unexpectedly in the past when trying to befriend other canines.
I have no doubt that Greta will kill Betti if she has the chance. It must be prevented. That's all I can do and reading her body language and knowing things like the fact that I cannot discipline Betti in front of Greta really helps.
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LACK OF LEADERSHIP BOTH CANINE AND HUMAN.
There is one certainty, out of all the possibilities, in the majority of
sections under Preventive Altercation Measures. There must be
leadership within the ranks of the pack. One dog must stand out in
a group and be in control, and the others must submit to that dog.
At the same time, there must be only one leader of all of the dogs,
including the pack leader, and that one MUST be a human. It can be
one or more within your family or kennel, but there must be the human
hierarchy presence, instilled in the minds of the pack and leaders.
Without this control, aggressive behavior, antagonism, and violence will
be left unchecked. The severity of the fights will also be greater. It will
also be more difficult to gain control of, and stop fights in progress. Many
owners of multiple dogs find that it is absolutely impossible to have more
than a few, together in one area at a time, without fighting. (For the most
part, these fights are between males and males, or females and females.)
The basic reasons for their inability to put them together is, they either
do not have the time nor energy to spend becoming the governing leader
and controlling factor, they do not have the knowledge to implement their
leadership in the proper manner, or they do not believe it can ever be done
and thus perpetuate the myth. The myth being, Malamutes cannot be put
out lose together under any circumstances.
Breeders and owners that do not know how to take this type of control, are
not able to pass it along to their puppy buyers. The myth is then propagated
to yet another generation of Malamute owners. It is however, not
appropriate to tell puppy buyers that they can put their dog together,
and not be able to explain how. This can and does, lead to problems for the
puppy buyers, down the road. The information and instructions on this type
of control, must be clear, concise, and flexible for each individual situation.
It must also be implemented from day one. Much more time is involved in
bringing an existing pack under control, once established.
This human control can make life with several dogs, a much more pleasant
experience. In the event a fight does break out, it is common to be able to
control it (including breaking it up), with verbal commands, and very little
physical intervention. This is made possible due to both the reduction in
severity of the fighting, and your placement in the hierarchy of the pack
as an outside force, over the leaders.
Above all else, this lack of control will contribute to the majority of problems
within a kennel or pack.
SOURCE: http://www.northernterritories.com/Breed%20Preventive%20Measures.htm
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Inheritance of Temperament
by Barbara Nibling
© Copyright May, 1998 - 2005
Behaviorally, interdog aggression is separate from aggression to humans. (Which would obviously make it genetically different). When looking at aggression exhibited by dogs, behaviorists note some risk factors - and it is wise you look at medical reasons simply to rule out medical causes since there are over 50 medical reasons for aggression.
There are over 20 identifiable actions the dog may make to signify escalating aggression - and it is possible that dogs with drop ears - like the Rottweiler or mastiff - dogs with normally slower movements - like a Saint or Great Pyrenees - or dogs with different tail carriage - like huskies or mastiffs - have more "bites" because people expect a mastiff to display the body language of a shepherd when it's going to bite.
It is highly likely bites will occur to the owner within the home and children are often involved. Urban areas are more inclined to have dogs bites than rural areas with summers having more bites than winters. The greater the number of children and dogs, the higher likelihood of bites occurring.
"Some variation (additive genetic variance) must be present for the trait to be developed.... Protectiveness is a constellation of behaviors; breeding for this constellation produces a continuum of protective behaviors, some of which will not be what the selector desired. In fact some of the behaviors will be inappropriate because they are not compete or forceful enough and some will be unacceptable because they are too forceful and out of context ...
"Accordingly if one has developed a breed for certain specific behaviors, one should expect that there will be variation around that behavior and that some of this variation will result in inappropriate, out-of-context behavior. This means that if one has selected a breed for protectiveness or guarding, some of the individuals in that breed may inappropriatel y protect or guard ..."
With all groups of breeds, there is an tendency by some individuals to excuse some behavior - we might accept "mouthing" in sporting dogs because their sporting dogs, "snapping" in sight hounds, "guarding" in working dogs, growling in toys (because they can't really hurt you), herding dogs nip, you get the idea.
"Caution is urged in regarding any generalization s about inappropriate breed-based [my thoughts, or genetic based] behaviors. It is best to view selection for specific behaviors as a risk assessment analysis. Breeds that have been selected for one or a few particular traits may be more at risk of developing undesirable variation for those behaviors. This does *not* mean that dogs selected for protective behaviors are more aggressive than dogs for which this selection of trait is absent. It *does* mean that that particular breed may be more at risk for developing disproportiona te number of dogs who exhibit out-of-context, inappropriate protective aggression."
I think I've wandered - along the continuum of escalating aggression are signs given by the dog - and whatever the consideration that for "out of the blue" attacks, they seldom if ever actually occur. Also is the intensity of the attack - so we have two factors to consider, one being the "how mad the dog is" and the other "how important it is to the dog". My analogy would be if I pulled into a parking lot one day and somebody steals a parking place from me. I'm furious and mutter curses and shake my fist at someone but in the overall scheme of things in my life it's a minor event. This does not mean I'm going to the parking lot with a gun and shoot someone. Contrast this with going to the bank, where they continually short me $10 when they give me change. And the do it again this time - now money is pretty important and it happens again and again and I'm not going to stand for it any more so my flash of amount of anger is smaller - my blood pressure doesn't go as high in this case, but I am less likely to interrupt of inhibit my reaction when I blow up.
So along the continuum of risk assessment, a dog that is easily distracted from barking at the mailman - protective aggression - if not considered as much a risk as a dog who is laying down and staring at the door (a lower sign or aggression than barking), but who will not stop staring. So the signs were there - let's see if we can see some of the classic ones.
Intact males are more likely to exhibit dominance aggression than neutered males or females. It is more likely that this is controlled by androgen since females who show aggression before puberty and who are spayed become *more* aggressive. Dominance aggression and protective aggression are the number 1 and number 2 causes of treatment by behaviorists.
From the description behavior, it might be possible to rule out actual interdog aggression - this is generally social in context and will occur between dogs within the same house, not hormone driven, although it generally starts at social maturity (18 to 24 months). The dog is challenged by a stare or a bump or body blocking and then each dog behaves in reaction to what the other dog did. Strange dogs meeting - even with two dogs fighting - generally are responding to protective aggression (and the classic leash aggression in some cases). A characteristic of interdog aggression is that aggressive intention is not displayed to other animals - the dog may live amicably with cats and horses.
Protective aggression is stimulated by sudden movements and frequently the dog inhibits the behavior in the absence of its owners (no owner to protect) or in strange places (dog shows are fine).
Dominance aggression occurs overwhelmingly in males (90% of cases), first obvious at social maturity (18 to 24 months), worsens with punishment, and may run in family lines. This type of aggression is the type which is looked for at the 8 week puppy test - if identified at that age, early intervention is required to save the dog - but not all dogs with dominant aggression can be identified at 8 weeks.
Most of us have dogs who display signs of territorial aggression - our dogs bark at someone at the door, protect the car, bark as people pass on the sidewalk. All social animals exhibit some protective aggression - your neighbors ever throw trash on your lawn? This behavior is increased by fences - the dog is able to continuously "patrol" and protect and made extremely bad if the dog is in an electric fence or chained. It can also be made worse if "door greeting" abnormalities are tolerated - the owner greets someone at the door with the dog by the collar.
For dominance aggression, in contrast to protective aggression, there is more growling, snarling, biting, and staring. Barking is considered a sign of protective aggression - think about barking dogs as you pass a yard. Dominance aggression is considered a concept of control - unlike possession of an object (food aggression) or challenge (will the dog get off the sofa or growl). Dominance aggression is more common with men owners who like the concept of "big, tough dogs" and so some breeds might be more likely to the diagnosed but the worse dominant aggressive dogs I have ever seen have been toy poodles and shihtzus - their behavior is more likely to be seen as innocent and owners tolerant).
There are some 15 things people do to exacerbate dominance aggression - as simple as staring at the dog or pushing on their rump, leaning over them, making a leash correction - and there are some 20 or so signs that the dog intends to become dominant aggressive - as innocent as standing on your feet, leaning against you, "talking back", standing in front of you in the doorway, jumping in your lap - you see how these signs are tolerated in smaller dogs.
Dogs with dominance aggression are categorized in behavior as those who think they are Master of the Universe - able to control people and get things their own way - bad, bad prognosis usually. And then there are those dogs where all the signs were there - first, although other aggressive behavior is not a predictor for dominance aggression, dominance aggression is about control and the dog generally has another form of aggression also. Second, the dog has escalated through several signs of dominance aggression, standing on people, sitting in laps, and it's okay. Well, then the dog thinks it's in charge - like when the teenager starts to talk back to test boundaries. This class of dogs will alter its behavior to the individual - may not behave aggressively with an experienced trainer (the trainer is in charge), when it's eating may not bark at people passing by. The dog can interrupt and inhibit the aggressive behavior but choose its time when not to react. This actually is the easiest dog to work with since the dog is capable of taking cues from context and behaving appropriately.
A long way around the subject to try to see that it would be extremely difficult to determine the exact genetics for this behavior since development of the behavior depends not only on the genes but also the owner of situation. If the dog was genetically predisposed but owned by a good trainer and discouraged at an early age from barking at the door, it may not exhibit the trait - on the other hand, a dog who may genetically be less predisposed but encouraged to exhibit the behavior becomes a problem.Â
Bibliography:
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The Dogs Mind by Bruce Fogle
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Behavior Problems in Dogs by William Campbell
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Genetics and The Social Behavior of Dogs by Scot and Fuller
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Clinical Behavior Medicine for Small Animals by Overall
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Domestic Animal Behavior for Veterinarians and Animal Scientists by Katherine Houpt
SOURCE: http://siriusdog.com/articles/behavior-temperament-aggression-dog.htm
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im totlaly going to read this....but later cz i dont have time now.....moon, i love you lol
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I have a two suggestions for these problems. The first is to hand-feed any dog with any aggressive tendencies. Do this for six months to a year or more if that's what it takes-maybe for life. Hand-feeding establishes that You are the leader of the pack and You control the resources. (Everyone who gets a new puppy should be doing this for the first few months) If there is one true leader (human) than fighting among others in the pack should be minimal. Actually, get everyone in the family involved, including children (with supervision), so that the dogs see that All humans are higher up than them. The second is exercise, exercise, exercise! (Not a walk on leash around the block) These large working or sporting dogs need to get the led out as they are so rarely used for their actual in-bred duties anymore. Bring the dog to an empty ball field for example and play fetch for half hour to an hour until the dog is pooped. Do this 4-5 times a week and the dog will be so tired that he will not spend so much time and energy squabbling among others within the house.
Hope this helps.
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Great ideas billybooker! Thank you for sharing. Very interesting and unique approach to establishing pack leadership. This is the first I've heard of this method and it sounds like a solid plan.
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I got the info from a well-known Canadian dog psychologist at one of his dog behaviour seminars (Dr. Stanley Coren). My dobe has fear-aggression problems, so I take all the good advise that I can get. People don't realize that when you feed a dog from their dish or the ground that they think the food comes from the floor. They need to understand that food comes from people. Dogs actually think that our hands are mouths. So I guess just like a mother wolf would feed a pup regurgitated food, we feed from our hands. And there are few in the pack who will mess with the leader who provides food. Things like pinning the dog down to establish dominance will not work well and is dangerous. So I grasped the idea of establishing dominance without being physical with the dog. I have been feeding my dog by hand ever since I heard this, while practicing her obedience commands-with time I hope to see a calmer, less fearful and aggressive dog when she meets other dogs.
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This book confirmed that by stating that it is best to have opposite sex dogs
I think that pointing to gender as the focus for behaviorial/D2D/aggression issues is simplistic.
Training (conditioning) is also only a part of it.
I do agree some aggression issues can't be fixed easily.
Bad genetics are bad genetics.
I had to euthanize a beloved older female as she was teaching my younger dog to be dog aggressive.
I had let her think she had the highest ranking member in my pack.
So this was opposite sexed dogs but due to the psychology of the dogs, it was not a healthy pairing.
It depends more on the temperments or personalities of the dogs, place in the pack....I would say than just the sex or spayed or neutered state.
No book can do as well as a consultation with canine psychologist --- dogs have to be observed and analyzed in the unique situations with the people and dogs...all the pack members! ;D
The best tact to take with aggression is to ferret out a good behaviorist!
I would see a vet to make sure that there isn't an underlying medical problem.
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!...When a dog knows his place he is a much happier dog...I learned this the hard way!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, but normally dogs routinely exert their leadership without such extremes.
Most aggression that is behaviorial (not medical or genetic) does come from a weak (inconsistent) human pack leader.
Dogs are much more consistent in establishing and negotiating their leadership roles than most humans.
Beating/smacking a dog is stupid and unnecessary if you understand canine behavior.
You use that sort of thing on a German Shepherd, it can turn on you and anyone else.
The subtle ways to exert your leadership is to control resources (food, sleeping areas, toys).
You can constantly move your dogs sleeping areas. Never let your dog sleep in walkways or doorways or on your bed.
Don't make a big deal, just use your body language and move into their space...they get up and move.
You don't need to say anything or use anything more than a nudge.
If you observe dogs, the dominant dog subtly takes over the sleeping space.
Feed your dogs after you. Make them watch you eat first. "Leader" dogs eat first.
Withhold food to use as reward when training...
Leaders initiate the play....put toys away when play is done. You get the toys out.
I would rather train a dog using canine behavior than smack it or use any sort of physical punishment.
Alpha rolls are so outdated and proven to be ineffective in so many ways. The Monks of New Skete are out in left field on this practice. I think even they have stopped the practice. Alpha rolls were a result of misinterpretat ion of dog behaviors.
My dog rolls on his back for me, cause he respects me and knows his place. I never coerced this relationship.
I built the relationship with my dominant male dog by using dog psychology. I control resources:food, water, bed. toys. It's all mine! And I am lots of fun...he gets a rich life in return for his place in the pack.
I established myself as leader by training him to respond to me using positive rewards, putting in him in timeout for displays of unwanted behaviors; by correcting his misbehavior with verbal cues.
I have off lead control by working very hard at training.
Beating a dog teaches it not to do the behavior in your presence.
The only excuse for beating a dog, rather than training it positively is lack of committment and time to your dog.
You are lucky *this time* if you don't create a worse problem than you started with.
Using aggression on dogs showing aggression is a time bomb.