Big Paws Only Dog Forums
BPO Food Forum => Food Discussion & Information => : Lyn July 28, 2005, 04:48:01 PM
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I'm on the hunt for an alternative kibble for Bubba. At least one that compares with Solid Gold ingredient wise but is made with chicken or turkey instead. I came across Canidae and it doesn't look too bad at all. But they do not make a large breed puppy food, it's for all life stages instead.
I'm just wondering if anyone uses Canidae or has used it with a large breed pup and what there results have been?
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Canidae was my first choice for Samson...But, as you mentioned, they do not make a food specifically for large breeds & it does not contain the glucosamine stuff that helps with hips & joints...I went to Premium Edge Lamb & Rice instead...I am still gravitating towards the Canidae though...The ingridients list is awesome!...I might go to it eventually anyway & just add the glucosamine... My friend sells pet supplies & she says the Canidae is a really good food....But, for large breed dogs & puppies...I'm not sure.
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I feed wellness by Old Mother Hubbard (one of the few other dog foods that use all human grade ingredients), but I have heard really good things about candae. Like Candae, wellness does not make a large breed formula - I suppliment with '4-9 liquid health' glucosamine/chondroitine/msm. Next time I am looking to switch foods, candae is going to be on my short list of ones to consider
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I'd rather not have to add any supplements. So it looks like I'll have to scratch the Canidae for now. Hmmm, are there any other large breed puppy foods that even compare to Solid Gold? I'm beginning to think not and I'm searching my butt off here. ???
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Canidae is on of the top foods out there...I would highly recommend it
Zero was on dog food for a short time until I swithc to just all raw and he did very well on it
The amount of glucosamine that is added to dog food is minimal so I wouldnt bank on it being all the beneficial
There are 2 GREAT sites on dog food
http://www.mordanna.com/dogfood/
http://www.i-dog.com/board/messages/46/253.html?1122597869
Good Luck
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Can I ask you what it is specifically that is drawing you to 'large breed' food rather than regular food? Is it just the inclusion of joint supplements? Because I just checked, and even solid gold doesn't list gluc in the ingredient list of it's large breed food. Ironically, wellness, which I feed and already stated didn't include gluc, actually does! I just reread the ingredients - it turns out that I just forgot it was there because we choose to supplement anyways (she has already been diagnosed with HD and we have spoken to the vet about the supplements).
I wouldn't rule out candae just because it doesn't include supplements. But you should also check out wellness since they do include it in their chicken super5mix and their lamb super5mix. http://www.oldmotherhubbard.com/dogs/wellness_overview.html
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Or the FROMM brands of food. Which look pretty good also. http://www.petacular.com/products/Fromm-Four-Star-30.html
Well crap now I have too many choices. I went from none to 3. LOL
OH OH OH... Lookie what I found. """"Canidae Platinum contains Glucosamine and Chondroitin for the hips and joints"""
Guaranteed Analysis - Platinum:
Crude Protein - (min) - 18.50%
Crude Fat - (min) - 8.50%
Crude Fiber - (max) - 4.00%
Moisture - (min) - 10.00%
Linoleic Acid (Omega-6) - (min) - 2.60%
Linolenic Acids (Omega-3) - (min) - 0.60%
Vitamin E - (min) - 500.00 IU/KG
Glucosamine HCL(*) - (min) - 525.00 mg/kg
Chondroitin Sulfate* - (min) - 425.00 mg/kg
Amylase* - (min) - BAU/ lb (1.81 BAU/kg)
Cellulase** - (min) - 0.25CMC units/lb (0.11CMC units/kg)
Protease*** - (min) - 24 HUT/lb (10.8 HUT/kg)
Saccharomyces Cerevisiae~ (min) - 100,000 CFU/lb (45,360 CFU/kg)
Lactobacillus Acidophilus~ (min) - 100,000,000 CFU/lb (45,360,000 CFU/kg)
Enterococcus Faecium~ (min) - 70,000,000 CFU/lb (31,752,000 CFU/kg)
370 ME kcals/cup. 3450 ME kcal/kg
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If HD is what you are worried about, I highly recommend that you switch to adult food instead of puppy food. We have consulted with surgeons about zoey because of her hips and the way they explained it to us, the number one thing you can do to try and protect your saint from HD pain is to 'grow them slowly'. They will ultimately end up the same adult weight, but the longer it takes them to get their, the slower their hips will form and the better their chances with HD pain in the future. By slowing down growth now you can reduce the pain and effects of HD that they will feel in the future. The way you do this is to feed adult food instead of puppy food, make sure you are not over feeding, and monitor their weight to keep them at a healthy weight.
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Thanks all. I think I will just go with the Canidae. If it comes down to it, I'll just add the supplement. The Canidae Platinum has gluc but it's for senior dogs. I missed that, my bad.
I'll just get a small bag for now and start the switch slowly and hope that the loose stools start to disappear. If not we will go back to the vet.
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You can always give a Vit C supplement. It wont harm in the least because it is water soluable. Whatever your pup doesnt absorb he will just get rid of it in it's urine
By the way..beautiful dog you got there :)
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Is Bubba on Solid Gold now? I have had Sugar Bear (Great Pyrenees) on it for about 30-45 days. His stool will be fine for a few days and then back to very loose. I went from Nurto to Solid Gold. I use to add cottage cheese so I stoped that thinking that was the problem. Still the same loose stool. Sugar Bear will only eat about 2-2 1/2 cups of it a day, so I dont think over feeding is an issue. I have also cut done on the number of chicken jerkey treat he gets. What are your top choices of food?
Lisa
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I have had Sugar Bear (Great Pyrenees) on it for about 30-45 days. His stool will be fine for a few days and then back to very loose. I went from Nurto to Solid Gold. I use to add cottage cheese so I stoped that thinking that was the problem. Still the same loose stool. Sugar Bear will only eat about 2-2 1/2 cups of it a day, so I dont think over feeding is an issue. I have also cut done on the number of chicken jerkey treat he gets.Â
When Zoey was on solid gold, she had loose stool issues too. We would add rice sometimes and they were the only times that she didn't have super super mushy stools. She also had wicked bad gas back then. After we switched off solid gold the squishy poops and gas went away.
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Sanity was on and is on Canidae from the time I brought him home. It's the only thing that put weight on him at all. I didn't supplement him either. If you're interested Solid Gold has an alternative protien food for Giant breeds now, Wolf King and it's made with Bison and Salmon
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We switched to Canidae All Life Stages from the Nutro Large Breed Puppy Controlled Growth formula based on the recommendation of lots of people from Newf.net (lower protien and better ingredients). Bava has done much better on the Canidae than he did on the Nutro, his poops were never very solid on the Nutro. I think they've changed the formula on the Nutro and it's lots of filler and stuff now. Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul looks to be almost exactly like the Canidae All Life Stages based on the info on the back. We're also giving glucosamine and Condrotin(sp) supplements as cheap insurance.
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DixieSugarBear, That is the exact problem Bubba is having. More loose stools that solid ones though. And gas.. omg it's horrible.
Anky, Bubba is eating the Wolfcub.. basically the same ingredients as the WolfKing. Bison and salmon. I think it's the salmon that is giving Bubba the loose stools. I tried NRG once, for his lunch meal.. but I bought the salmon one. It went straight through him. So I'm hoping to try something chicken or turkey this time.
I phoned both pet food stores that are local to me (sucks living in the boonies) and neither can get Canidae. :( So I don't know what to get now. The one store recommended Dick van pattens Natural balance, but I've passed by that one already more than once. Can't get Artemis either. The other store recommended Ultra but I didn't catch the brand. He told me to come in and look around that they have alot of different holistic kibbles.
I'm out of the wolfcub too now go figure so now I need to buy a bag of that and a bag of new stuff. I'm going to be broke. LMAO But that's nothing new. :P
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I think it all depends to what your dogs, like and respond well too, both my dogs are on solid gold and love it, no gas or poop problems here is a great site to compare foods and ingrediants. Sometime they won't list glucosamine as an ingrediant because it is in another ingrediant, ie chicken cartilage.
http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=comp-wiz
Hope this helps in your search.
Nina
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hey Lyn,
Try the farm stores, the seed and feed stores close to you. I thought it was nuts to, but some of them carry premium foods. There is a seed & feed down the road from us that carries stuff that I can't get at any of the pet stores around here. Also on most of the websites for the dog foods, there are store locators so you can tell where to find the food you are looking for.
Canidae
http://www.canidae.com:591/canidae-retailers/search.htm
Solid Gold
http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/
Chicken soup for the pet lovers soul
http://www.chickensoupforthepetloverssoul.com/cslocator_distributors.html
etc.. you get the idea :) Hope this helps
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We get puppy chow at the local tractor/trailor store. They even have dog toys.
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Thanks all for the help. Greatly appreciated. I didn't think searching for dog food would be so insanly mind boggling. LOL
I spoke to my vet and gave him the list of what I could get since I got so frustrated... and he thinks the FROMM Chicken a la Veg would be good.
Here's the ingredient list... What do you all think?
Ingredients:
Chicken, Chicken Meal, Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, Sweet Potato, Brown Rice, White Rice, Whole Dried Egg, Menhaden Fish Meal, Millet, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Dried Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Oat Hulls, Herring Meal, Cheese, Flaxseed, Carrots, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Apples, Green Beans, Lecithin, Potassium Chloride, Cranberries, Blueberries, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Chicory Root Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Alfalfa Sprouts, Yucca Schidigera, Folic Acid, Whole Clove Garlic, Parsley, Chondroitin Sulfate, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Bifidobacteriu m Longum, Lactobacillus Salivarius, Enterococcous Faecium, Vitamin A, D3, E, B12 Supplements, Choline Chloride, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Biotin, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Sorbic Acid, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Protein 24% Minimum
Fiber 3% Maximum
Fat 15% Minimum
Moisture 10% Maximum
Ash 6.5% Maximum
Calcium 1.2% Vitamin A 18,200 IU/kg
Phosphorus 1.0% Vitamin D 1,300 IU/kg
Sodium 0.4% Vitamin E 180 IU/kg
Potassium 0.6% Vitamin K 1.52 mg/kg
Magnesium 0.12% Vitamin B12 0.10 mg/kg
Zinc 135 mg/kg Choline Chloride 2,320 mg/kg
Iron 229 mg/kg Niacin 82 mg/kg
Manganese 70 mg/kg Pantothenic Acid 26 mg/kg
Copper 11.0 mg/kg Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 38 mg/kg
Cobalt 0.4 mg/kg Riboflavin 7 mg/kg
Iodine 1.53 mg/kg Thiamine 8.7 mg/kg
Selenium 0.47 mg/kg Pyridoxine 4.2 mg/kg
Iodine 1.53 mg/kg Thiamine 8.7 mg/kg
Glucosamine 400 ppm Folic Acid 1.4 mg/kg
Chondroiten 40 ppm Biotin 0.3 mg/kg
Technical Information:
Metabolizable Food Density
(kcal/gm) 3.968 (oz/cup) 3.3
(kcal/lb) 1,800
(kcal/cup) 370
The only thing I need to figure out is how much to feed him. It says it's an all life stages food but it only lists the adult feeding amounts. Here'e the feeding recommendation s. Bubba is about 80 pounds right now and almost 6 months old.
Daily Feeding Recommendation s:
Weight of Dog Cups/Day*
5 lbs 1/2
15 lbs 1-1/4
30 lbs 2
50 lbs 3
75 lbs 4
100 lbs 4-2/3
*Standard 8 fluid ounce measuring cup
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You can get Canidae shipped to you.
http://www.waggintails.com/store/DisplayProduct.php?sku=CDDK-001
(Just type in Canidae Delivery in Google)
As for the Wolf King/Cub, some dogs have problems with alternative protein sources. I've learned that there are several top quality dog foods out there but every dog responds differently to each one and it's a trial and error. I've also heard that alot of dogs can't deal with Duck, and as such avoid those when I'm shopping. Here are some other good food brands (I went to the food store today and Sanity and I started on Eagle Pack Holistic Chicken).
California Natural
Merrick
Innova
Timber Wolf
Wellness (But NOT if they're already having a problem with loose stools, says the brand rep)
Merrick and Timber Wolf have the prettiest packages..... I looked at them for a LONG time. But settled on the Eagle pack. I've never heard of FROMM.....
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There are a lot of good brands out there, I would not go on the gluc. when I rule out a food. If I found a food that seemed to fit my dogs need, id rather supplement it.
There was one food stating max 27% crude prot. on a giant breed you really would want to not go over 23% prot. and if they tend to grow too fast, you would probably want to bring it down to 18 or 19%. The largest problem with our giant dogs is that they grow too fast, and that will most likely give problems in the long run, so if we can slow them down a bit, thats good. Mind you, I am working hard on keeping Galahad on an even and not too speedy growth here and it can be tricky :P
Here is a link that has a rather long list of food that at least this canine nutritionist thinks highly of. She is a dane breeder, and is very up to date with most things that go on in the feeding and breeding world of giant dogs.
http://www.greatdanelady.com/
I also give vit. C and gluc. and enzymes. In some very rare cases you can see an elevated liver funktion and when they decrease the gluc. it goes back to normal, they have yet not been able to for sure say that it is the gluc. or if it is underlying problems with those particular dogs. And it is extremely rare.
Good Luck in finding a food you and puppy like and when you do it would be interesting to hear what you choose and what you think about it.
Marit
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Somehow I missed brandon's post about the feed and seed stores. I found 2 local feed stores that carry the Canidae. ;D I'm going to pick up a 40 pound bag today. It works out to be $15 cheaper than the Solid Gold so that's a bonus.
I have enough Solid Gold left to mix for about 2 days. Maybe more if I start mixing it half half. Since he already has soft stool it's not like it could get much worse.
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I highly suggest you go buy a small bag of solid gold to make the switch. You can get a small 4lb bag for under $10. When we switched zoey off of solid gold the other month we had to buy one of those bags because we didn't have enough to make the switch properly either.
If you only switch over 2 days I am sure you will have some serious diahrea to deal with, and it'll last longer than you realize. Especially since bubba is so young.
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Hi there everyone....I am new here, I just need to figure out how to attach pictures! My name is Michele, and I have 4 furkids. Rocky, a Landseer Newfoundland, Bailey, a Great Pyrenees, and Toby & Tucker, both Golden Retrievers. Just thought I would add that I feed Innova, and they recently came out with foods for large breeds. There is a puppy formula and adult. If you go to http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=comp-wiz you can research many dog foods and their ingredients... .but Innova is an excellent food with human grade ingredients. Sounds like you've decided on Canidae but just thought I'd put in my two cents...
I am loving this board and the pictures of all your beautiful dogs!!
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I agree shangri...... I think most vets recommend 4-5 days when you switch food. I presonally like to take it very gentle and do it over a week. And trust me lol....... a little runny poop can get a LOT worse. Some dogs seem to have "steel bellies" and are not bothered at all, but a lot of the big guys in particular seem to have a little harder time with switching food. So to be on the safe side I would get a small bag of the food you use now and let it take several days to get over to the new food.
Good Luck
Marit
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here's what i do when switching food. it takes me like a month LMAO.....IM CAUTIOUS---living three floors up, you have to be LMAO.....
i start with 3/4 regular food 1/4 new food...a week later i switch to half and half...then to 3/4 and 1/4....then, i take the rest of the old food and mix in into the new food completely.... .so there is a little of the old food till the new food is gone. works great for me! and then there aren't runs all the way down the hallway, in the elevator, in the lobby, on the concrete, and then finally, a tiny squirt on the grass. its happened before. lol. not fun.
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Nicki..... lol...... I can see you and wangus running like mad, to make it out while he is making a little trail from his butt all the way down hahaha.
The way you switch food though, sounds like the perfect way of doing it, real gentle and gives them lots of time to adapt to the new food.
Marit
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Hi there everyone....I am new here, I just need to figure out how to attach pictures! My name is Michele, and I have 4 furkids. Rocky, a Landseer Newfoundland, Bailey, a Great Pyrenees, and Toby & Tucker, both Golden Retrievers.... I am loving this board and the pictures of all your beautiful dogs!!
Hi Michele. Welcome to BPO! You should start a thread to introduce yourself on the general board. Just click on the link on the left side of the main BPO page - it says 'post a thread to the general board' or something like that. And to attach pictures, all you have to do it click 'additional options' under the text box when you are posting a message. They upload them right to BPO. Also, if you want to have an avatar (a picture in all of your messages, like how my saint zoey's pictures is in all of my posts)then you can have one by editing your profile. To do that, click 'profile' under the 'user tools' section on the right side of the screen, then it will take you to your current profile. then there is a link on the right side of the screen that says 'modify forum profile information' and you can upload the picture that you want to be your avatar there.
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I see your point... I usually do switch much more slowly. But I give Bubba chicken and turkey all the time, either raw or cooked and those were the only time he would have solid poops. The Canidae is chicken and turkey.. So I thought I'd try mixing half and half and just too see if his poops start to firm up. If not I'll go out and buy a small bag of Wolfcub.
If I was more energetic I'd just switch him to raw all together. No poop problems at all with raw meat. But I'm too worried about him getting the proper nutrience. And all these supplements just confuse me. LOL
Hello Michele. Welcome to BPO! :)
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We have firm poop!! I never thought I'd be this happy over poop. LMAO! He's still having the odd loose stool, only once yesterday. And he went from pooping 7-8 times at day to 4-5 times. He's not gassing me out anymore either.
I'm still mixing the food Canidae and Wolfcub half/half. Hopfully once he's eating just the Canidae I'll never have to scrap another loose stool off the lawn again. LOL
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Lyn:
I am mixing Canidae with Wolf Cub too and my pup miraculously has firm stool now too! so weird. Do you think it was the wolf cub by itself? I had him on innova puppy then to wolf cub and he kept making little pancakes. then he went on a bland diet with antibiotics and then to wolf cub with canidae. strange! I wonder if there is something that has to do with the salmon or bison in the wolf cub that gives some puppies loose stool.
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I use to feed nutramax to the poms but we are feeding raw now...Willow was weaned right to a raw diet. I think it is great! You can use canned pumpkin (not the pie mix) to firm up stools. Just need a little.
Timmie
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Lyn:
I wonder if there is something that has to do with the salmon or bison in the wolf cub that gives some puppies loose stool.
Some dogs can't tolerate alternative protein sources. Lots of times if they have a problem with a quality food, try one with a different protien.
Ang
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When I gave Bubba raw I didn't give him any kibble. I heard the same thing about mixing raw and kibble at the same time. So he got kibble for breakfast, a couple raw chicken thighs for lunch and then kibble again for supper. Although it wasn't 12 hours between meals though. Bubba get's fed at 7am, 12 noon and 5pm.
I just re-read my other post. It did sound like I was mixing the raw and kibble half half. What I meant was mixing the Solid gold and the Canidae half half.
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It's surely been a big debate about whether it is ok to feed raw and kibble, whether at the same time or not. I have not heard of anyone, despite all I have read to contradict such, that has had a problem feeding both at the same time (raw mixed with kibble) or a meal of each per day.Â
The arguments I've heard are that raw food digests faster and causes upset by leaving kibble in the stomach and the age old don't mix because you will cause a nutritional imbalace.Â
I did rescue a great pyrenese a couple years ago and she did best with a mixture of kibble and raw. If she got just one or the other she would have very soft, runny stools.  The Akita I fostered ate mostly kibble and got raw meat once in a while - no problem there, either. The Great Dane has also done well with a combination.Â
I suppose it depends upon the dog.
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two of my pups from my last litter currently are on raw one meal, kibble the next, one is on wysong synorgen, the other being switched from fromms to the eagle pak
i prefer canidae or wysong.
they have had no problems with digestion or pooping or anything else.
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I finally decided to go with Canidae dog food. Kiah is free fed because she won't eat very much at one time. I tired to feed her 2-3 times a day, but she never ate all her food. Then she would eat the whole bowl to fast and puke it back up. I am doing half and half with the iams food. The first time I mixed them together she ate the whole bowl and kept it down. She's never gone that crazy over her food before. If she keeps this up I'll have to watch how much she eats. Poops are good too. I am supplementing with glucosamine. Any other vitamins I should be giving her? I also switched my cats over to Felidae which is cheaper then science diet. So far so good.
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Sophie was on iams when I got her. I free fed her also because it never seemed like she ate the whole bowl. I then switched to Canidae and now she scarfs down the whole bowl so we no longer free feed... I think she would probably eat all day long if we did :)
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w00t. big fan of Canidae here...
tho at the rate we're going thru for 2 dogs, i'm about to try the Costco/Kirkland signature brand made by diamond.. decent ingredients, great price.
btw, did anyone sense MORE shedding on Canidae? or is it just my imagination?
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I'm thinking seriously of making the switch to Canidae too...Currentl y I'm feeding a mix of 4 foods...I know, I'm an idiot...lol!...2 different formulas of Premium Edge because I am switching them off of the lamb & rice to chicken & rice...Then I started adding Merrick & Canidae too...I'll probably end up feeding Canidae & supplementing.
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Innova recently came out with a large breed formula that i've been feeding my crew and they love it...the first two ingredients are chicken and turkey, are human grade ingredients and it has the gluc and cos, plus has a larger kibble size that my boys like....you can check out its ingredients and ingredients of other foods at the following link:
www.naturapet. com
Just click on the "tools" tab and it compares many dog foods and gives info on the ingredients