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BPO Medical Forum => Medical Conditions & Diseases => : AudgePadge October 24, 2008, 06:49:49 AM
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Since I've only had one female dog, and she came spayed, I can't speak about my experiences with a spayed vs unspayed female. However, its always been my compromise with Hubs- wanting the boys to have their "manhood" that we let all the boys get to be 3 years old before we neuter them. That way, they have an opportunity to fully mature with all their hormones, and develop their personalities the way nature intended.
So, I found this article that I found very interesting about the pros/cons about spaying/neutering your pets.
This article does NOT go into the subject of population control or behavior modification, this is strictly from a HEALTH standpoint only.
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
It seems a lot of the little problems our babies have, may come from being spayed/neutered??? Our Oreo passed with some bladder problems 3 months after he was neutered...
From a healthcare standpoint only, what do you think? Is it more beneficial to neuter the dog at a younger or older age?
I guess I just want everyone's two cents regarding spay/neuter besides the argument of population control.
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As an owner of a giant breed I pay heed to the current studies- these are scientific based on unbiased data and not anecdotal or a 'somebody told me basis'. Early neutering or neutering before maturity increases the chance of osteosarcoma 2-3 xs leading to a 1 in 4 chance of this dread disease. That's scary. Numerous studies have shown this- not a fluke. Me I can wait 6 more months to neuter to decrease my dogs chance of this fatal disease. Hemangiosarcom a is also increased four fold- another fatal disease. Other adverse health effects are becoming apparent some 15-20 years after pediatric spays became the norm so the vet schools are starting to take a hard look at this practice. Two different studies have shown up to a 50% increase in hip dysplasia, others are showing up to 30% increase in CCL injuries. Both of these are severely crippling to the animal. Not to say that neutering is the sole cause but it certainly is a major influence. Kinda like saying it OK or not OK for your child to smoke. The health risks are there by early neutering. So I will wait- its no problem to me if a dog keeps his testicles until 12-18 months.
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So . . . 12-18 months for a neuter. How old for a spay? Being “out of this game” on this issue for more than a decade has clearly left me in the dark . . .
I have mix-breed dogs, so breeding is NOT something I want to happen, but I a 50%-70% increase in the risk of HP due to early spay/neuter scares me. I'll gladly pay the $100 license fee for the first year if it means a much higher chance of having a healthy dog in the long run.
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Yea, right now, we don't have any regulations of when a dog needs to be altered. We just pay $50 a year for licensing for Roscoe, Ramses and Monty are neutered so its $8 a year.
It's just my compromise with hubs to wait until the dogs are fully matured physically and mentally before they get neutered.
Another question- Being bigger, I know that it costs more for anesthesia, but are there any side effects to a full grown, large breed dog under that much anesthesia? (I haven't done any research yet, so forgive my ignorance)
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Some breeds are more sensitive to anesthesia I have Gr Pyrenees and they are known to be sensitive.
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When I place a puppy I recommend that spaying not take place before 1 year Now in my breed the first heat cycle usually doesn't happen until they are more than one year so there is not much risk of unwanted pregnancy> There is a breeder vet that recommends waiting until 2 years regardless of gender. It depends on if you feel able to cope with a heat cycle Here I can secure the female and prevent an unplanned mating but that's not always so easy in a lot of pet homes. There are some vets that are now recommending that males not be neutered at all as the benefits are miniscule if any. Different story with the females as there are problems that can occur with leaving them intact such as pyometra and breast cancer. That is a judgement call for the owner.
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Thanks, patrick! I found this article which seems a more reasoned study than the earlier one:
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665?cookieSet=1
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i got an error message when i clicked on the link....:(
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Good article!!
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i got an error message when i clicked on the link....:(
Hmm. The link works for me . . . If you Google "optimum age spay giant breed" (without the quotation marks!), it's the first hit:
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665
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aha...thank you!
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That pumpkin costume is KILLING me!!!
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I can comment a little bit on this topic as well. :)
We have 2 female dogs. Both are only 2 months apart in age. Under the guidance of many large breed dog owners on a website, I waited until my dogs were 18 months old to have them spayed.
My now 3 year old Saint Bernard has mild hip dysplasia. I don't know if it would be worse or better if she were spayed earlier, but I just did what I had read and heard was best. So later-spaying does not eliminate all risk of HD, as evidenced in my Saint's case. But if I had the choice over again, and I thought it may help prevent HD, I'd still wait and spay her at an older age.
The costs of neutering/spaying a nearly full grown dog that can be 100+ pounds will be significantly higher than that of the same procedure in a 6 month old/50 pound pup, I will tell you that. So take that into account as well. Some areas have extraordinaril y high vet fees for neutering/spaying large dogs.
I did not notice a difference in either dogs' personality after the spays were done. I do know that it is hard to keep 2 energetic, playful, big 18 month old dogs from not playing too hard or running and ripping out stitches though!
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I am not going to neuter my wolfhound, ever, unless it is medically necessary. The risks far outweigh the benefits in my mind. I will never willingly neuter another male dog of mine. I don't see any benefits and see lots of negatives. If they come from a rescue, I don't have an option. As far as females, I don't think I will spay another one. I know I could keep them separate, so breeding is not an issue. The problems I have had with spay incontinence as well as increased risk for cancers, behavioural issues, etc. are just not worth it to me. I think each pet owner has to decide what is right for their pet and go from there. It is no different than deciding what to feed your pet, what training to give your pet, what is acceptable behaviour for your pet, or any of the other decisions we make as pet owners. You make your decision and then you have to be prepared to live with the consequences, good, bad or indifferent.
Kathy
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I have had both of my Chihuahuas fixed when they were about a year old. I felt this was a good idea since they are both house dogs. They don't have the desire to run out in search of a breeding mate and they don't exhibit angry or irrational behavior as some dogs do when they are in heat. I researched the idea a bit beforehand and I am comfortable that I made the right decision. The only real problem I have ever had is that you REALLY have to watch their diet. Neutured/spayed pets tend to add pounds much more easily!
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For me, I will always spay/neuter my animals unless they are to be shown in the ring. IMHO, I think the benefits far outweigh the risks. Do you know how many "oops" litters you hear about? They are sooooo prevelant in the US, it's not even funny. That is the number one reason to spay and neuter your pets. That is why there is such a push in this country to get your pets spayed/neutered.
I dont' think anyone can say they can w/o a doubt, be 100% sure they can keep their intact pets from other intact pets, whether it be their own pets, or someone elses. You hear all the time of breeders having oops litters and they know what they are doing (hopefully).
I have had both Keiko and Gunther fixed at 6 mo old. Keiko started showing signs of incontenance around 5 yrs of age. We put her on meds for 2 yrs, then took her off and other than occasional very light leakage (not noticable unless you push on her stomach) we've had no problems. All she needs is to go out once more during the day than the others. Both she and Gunther have perfectly fine joints (other than some arthritis for Keiko, but she is 10 yrs old), no problems with either of their hips.
Nigel and Posey are not fixed. And if I had it my way, they would be. If my friend doesn't get on the ball soon with helping get their paperwork together I will say screw showing them and fix them both. It is a big PITA to have two intact animals of opposite sexes. I couldn't imagine having all 4 intact. :o :o Having to keep an eagle eye on Posey when she is in heat, not to mention having to deal with the bleeding is very stressful. Nigel has marking issues which is very commen with intact males. His is due to separation anxiety but I would rather not have to deal with it.
And I hope you don't want to socialize you intact animals much. Both intact males and females often have problems with animals of the same sex as they are. I know Nigel often challenges (or pretends to) other dogs. He is mostly bluffing but some dogs aren't. And God forbid there is a female in heat in the neighborhood. Your male will go nuts. I already had that problem at the dog park. There must have been a female in heat either at the dog park recently or in the neighborhood. Nigel was humping dogs left and right and had to stay on leash most of the time there.
And intact males are just as likely to get testicular cancer as females to get breast cancer.
I have no problem with someone waiting to get their dog fixed. 6 mo, 12 mo, 18 mo, whatever. But animals don't make the choice to breed or not to breed. Instinct takes over. And for me, that alone is enough of an incentive to spay/neuter.
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I think you overplay the oops litters by breeders. In 18 years I have had ONE oops and that is with 6-10 intact females and males available to breed same. The unplanned litters that occur are by far due to pet owners that leave their dogs run loose and if you can't or are unable to keep separated when needed - then by all means spay!
Testicular cancer is so low in incidence as to be close to non-existent (2/10ths of 1 percent) and is one of the cancers that is usually curable. Testicular cancer would not entice me to neuter HOWEVER osteosarcoma up to 25% sure prevents me from early neuter! And spay incontinence is a prevalent reason females are given up to the shelters-at an older age when they are not very adoptable.
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I've had males where it is necessary to neuter due to medical problems. One had benign tumors developing which the neutering fixed (forgive me it was a long time ago and I forget the name of the disease). The benign tumors usually give way to cancerous if let go with this situation. I had another male who kept on getting bladder infections. It was a testicle that was infected. They didn't find it until the neutering. So, there are other reasons I neuter other than testicular cancer. As for the age... I think do your research and if you decide to neuter do it with information. I cannot neuter my dobie at the moment. First, he is too young in my opinion (10 months) and second, the breeder wants to show him. After the show career is over, he will be neutered. No matter if you neuter or not, nothing is 100% guaranteed to prevent everything. There are behavioral as well as medical situations to consider.
All my females are spayed (or will be soon). It seems that the medical side of that points more toward spaying than not. Again, it is a choice that needs to be informed. I also don't want to raise a bunch of puppies and go through the process of finding them homes. I am not a breeder and too many dogs need homes as it is.
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I think it's important though to differentiate between clearly careless "oops" litters of pups and actual "oops" litters that reputable breeders can have happen to them at times.
People who don't make a real effort to contain their dogs and don't spay/neuter them are just asking for these "accidental" litters. Whereas reputable breeders who make valiant efforts to make sure no litter is made without serious thought and consideration, their "oops" litters aren't the ones you'll find in the papers or on Craigslist.
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I completely agree. Also, maybe you have too many intact dogs as a breeder if you are unable to keep them separated and have an "oops" litter. To me that is still being irresponsible and not an oops.
As someone who personally knows 3 of the top Pyr breeders in the USA, and each of them with high recommendation s, expectations for their breeding program and the absolute best intentions for their breedings, even each of them had an oops or almost oops (meaning they bred, but no pups) litter. I would say any reputable breeder who has been at this breeding thing for more than 10 years has had an oops litter or got very close. Does that mean they weren't responsible? NOt to me. It means accidents happened. Someone didn't shut a gate. Someone didn't lock a door. One dog I know of jumped through a glass window to get to a female in heat. Things happen. Even the best breeders have it happen to them.
(See my above post about the difference between good breeders and oops litters and irresponsible dog owners and oops litters.)
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Well if you are a breeder that is one thing but if you do not plan on breeding your dog it should be spayed/neutered. PERIOD! All of my dogs have been spayed/neutered. I do not wish to breed my dog in any way shape or form! I do not wish to go through blood lines and all the tests or vet bills. I am amazed by those who do it and I'm sure it is wonderful to see you babies that you created do well in the show ring etc but it's not for me. I'm very glad there are responsible breeders out there who take all the time and consideration to create wonderful dogs for us though.
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Bubba was neutered 2 months after his 3rd birthday. Hubby didn't want to neuter him at first. But.. Bubba was getting super territorial and just throwing around his testosterone "pushy intact male syndrome". LOL Plus keeping weight on him was a nightmare. He looked like an anorexic Saint Bernard.
It's been 7 months since the neuter and he's much more layed back and it gaining weight finally... he'll be 4 in less than 4 months. Plus he's now friends with the neighbour he had a hate on for... mind you I still can't stand the guy, LOL
Overall he's just been much easier dog to live with.
Lola is next.. But I'm nervous and have cancelled 2 spay appointments for her. :-[ As soon as I book the appointment my anxiety starts and builds and builds until I cancel it. I need to step up and get over my fear before she has her next heat which is Dec/Jan. I don't want to go through another heat but yet the surgery part terrifies me. I don't want to deal with either of them. LOL
I had a kitty die during a spay so I think having Lola done is just bringing back those memories. I'll never forget that phone call. :'( That's probably why the majority of our pets are male. LOL
Sorry I'm rambling. Can you tell I'm thinking about making Lola another appointment? :(
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I understand the nerves. Females go through much more than the males. My mal gets spayed today. I was nervous until I got there. It is much better for my household and knew it was best decision for her.
Lots of vibes for you and your girl. You aren't the only one that gets nervous for your babies.
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When I posted originally, I wasn't talking about breeders, or overpopulation-However, I completely agree with Julie, Tina and everyone else who believes in spaying/neutering pets.
There really are SO many "oops" litters - reputable breeders to the "I don't know how it happened" pet owners... Point is, it can happen to ANY unaltered pet, and it shouldn't! I think to be a reputable, responsible breeder, you should have the resources and facitlites to separate your dogs effectively so these "boo-boo's" don't happen.
I'm not a breeder, nor do I intend on breeding- Lucky for us, we have the means to contain our pup until it's "his time" and we're also lucky to have a place where no other dogs can get in (not like they'd want to!) :P
We're waiting until Roscoe is fully mature (3 years ish), until then, we're taking all precautions to keep the ladies out, and our man in!
It's been 7 months since the neuter and he's much more layed back and it gaining weight finally... he'll be 4 in less than 4 months. Plus he's now friends with the neighbour he had a hate on for... mind you I still can't stand the guy, LOL
Overall he's just been much easier dog to live with.
BTW- Lyn, how long did it take Bubba to recover?? Monty took a good 8-10 hours before he got out of bed (bad reaction to the anesthesia), Ramses...about 30 minutes! Is it different for the big guys?
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When we first got home he layed around for about 3-4 hours, but he was still glassy eyed. :D After that he moved a bit slower but was fine otherwise. :D I was expecting him to be down and out for alot longer. He acted more upset that I left him than anything else. So I got the cold shoulder for a couple days. LOL
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As far as anesthesia recovery goes, it is different for each breed and each dog. My Caucasian was drugged for Xrays of her hips and knees. She wasn't totally out, but enough out 3 of us could hold her relatively still. It took 3 days for her to be back to herself. After 24 hours she could walk relatively well, still kind of wobbly, but walking. She was urinating on herself continuously for 48 hours. She had a horrible reaction to the drugs they used and they only gave her the minimal dosage.
Kathy
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I completely agree. Also, maybe you have too many intact dogs as a breeder if you are unable to keep them separated and have an "oops" litter. To me that is still being irresponsible and not an oops.
As someone who personally knows 3 of the top Pyr breeders in the USA, and each of them with high recommendation s, expectations for their breeding program and the absolute best intentions for their breedings, even each of them had an oops or almost oops (meaning they bred, but no pups) litter. I would say any reputable breeder who has been at this breeding thing for more than 10 years has had an oops litter or got very close. Does that mean they weren't responsible? NOt to me. It means accidents happened. Someone didn't shut a gate. Someone didn't lock a door. One dog I know of jumped through a glass window to get to a female in heat. Things happen. Even the best breeders have it happen to them.
(See my above post about the difference between good breeders and oops litters and irresponsible dog owners and oops litters.)
Well it is irresponsible to me! If you are a breeder you should have a kennel to keep females intact AWAY from males or Kennel a male with someone else. You don't just not lock a door or a window while having a male and a female intact.
The dog you know who jumped through a glass window to get to a female DID IT TWICE a year apart. The breeder was lucky enough that
females didn't get pregnant but the fact that she let it happen TWICE tells us something, doesn't it?
That is why it is important to spay and neuter...if you can't be 100% responsible
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Saying a responsible breeder would never let an oops litter occur is something like saying a responsible driver would never let a car accident occur. Even with all the precautions in the world an accident can occur. To say not is to truly underestimate the tremendous instinct of animals to procreate. If you want to be 100% sure then your dogs should be spayed or neutered. That is the only sure way to prevent unwanted litters.
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Boy....I am trying to digest all this info because I had planned to have Luke neutered at 1 year. Actually, our vet was willing to do it at about four months and when I told her that I thought you were supposed to wait, she basically said "not any more." This came up in his first couple of visits when she was gathering info on her new patient. She asked if I planned to breed him. Then she mentioned getting his dewclaws removed because she worries about them getting caught on things and ripping. I had read on Pyr sites when I was still deciding on what kind of dog to get not to let a vet talk you into getting them removed. She said they should stay on if I was going to show him.
Anyway, all of this was postponed as I mentioned that he got sick with Parvo and then had a small tumor removed, which was benign. The tumor was removed quickly, as it was getting bigger, and that was before I learned on here about Pyr's sensitivity to anesthesia. I assume she knew that or we were fortunate. But now with the other things coming up I guess I need to make sure she does know it.
My reason for neutering is possible aggression issues and because I don't plan to breed. I am wondering now about the issues with hip dysplasia.(sp?) And what about dew claws? Oh me.........
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If the dew claws are attached you're probably ok leaving them on, but if they're detached, they're going to catch on everything and rip. I wouldn't put your baby under JUST for the dew claws, but if he's going under for something else, I'd have them removed.
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I don't want to dwell on dew claws when the subject is neutering, but I don't know what you mean by detached or attached.
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I don't want to dwell on dew claws when the subject is neutering, but I don't know what you mean by detached or attached.
Detached dew claws look a little bit like they're dangling off the leg. Poor Monty has ripped the nails clear off his dewclaws playing rough or once from a simple walk--it got caught in an indent on the curb crossing the street. :'(
He's too old to have them removed now, but all our puppies since have had them removed. Where we live, there's just too much to snag it on... JMO
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"Well it is irresponsible to me! If you are a breeder you should have a kennel to keep females intact AWAY from males or Kennel a male with someone else. You don't just not lock a door or a window while having a male and a female intact.
The dog you know who jumped through a glass window to get to a female DID IT TWICE a year apart. The breeder was lucky enough that
females didn't get pregnant but the fact that she let it happen TWICE tells us something, doesn't it?
That is why it is important to spay and neuter...if you can't be 100% responsible"
To bad mouth someone else is irresponsible and just plain tacky. I thought maybe you were better than that. There is enough of this in the show world to be bad mouthing someone over something like this. Specially when the person is dedicated heart and soul to the health and prosperity of this breed.
Guess I should start boarding all my windows up before I get considered irresponsible next. Heck everyone with intact dogs should put boards on your windows - we would not want to be considered irresponsible had one of the dogs decided to be a sex crazed idiot and jump through the window. Tsk tsk shame on us...
I hope you change your tune, bad mouthing people spreads quick and soon no one will want to talk to you in fear of what you may say about them. Remember we are all in this breed for the same reason - our love for them. We shouldn't be pitting against one another over stuff like this.
- Abstrax
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Oh and putting dogs in kennels doesn't always prevent intact dogs breeding either. I have heard of many instances with dogs being able to tie through chain linked fences. So that doesn't really solve that problem either does it? :-*
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I am not defending a momentary lapse. I am defending the fact it can happen to anyone and has been bad mouthing this person to people. That is wrong.
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Just because I have not posted in 2yrs has nothing to do with this. Being that you all are members as well and entitled to an opinion, why should I be entitled to less?
People Whisperer and I know one another in Person. She has been nothing but kind to me so to see her saying this has me disappointed. I am not going to treat her any differently when we see each other at the next show. In fact I told her she should come to the show we will be attending. So I must enjoy her company no? So please don't turn it around to make me look like I am trying to belittle her.
I also know the person she is referring to whom is a dear friend. And its not what she said here about the person, its how she said it and the intent behind it.
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I don't want to dwell on dew claws when the subject is neutering, but I don't know what you mean by detached or attached.
If they're attached, they're like an extra toe up on the leg. The bone is SOLID and they don't flap around. If they're detached, it's just a giant skin tag with a claw (which is why they tear so easily). Most breeders I know removed dew claws within the first couple days of birth (same as docking their tails, if breed appropriate).
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Thanks for the pic, Melssiakins! Yes, if the the dew claw is attached (as shown in that x-ray), you don't need to worry about removal. In lots of breeds it isn't, and when they tear it can cost major bucks.
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It actually was not quite so truthful- the dog did go through the window ONE time, not twice in one year. And the person she is referring to is a well respected breeder of more than 20 years-