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Mastiffs => Old English Mastiff Discussions => : Guardian Angel's White lightning October 29, 2008, 03:06:48 PM

: breeding help
: Guardian Angel's White lightning October 29, 2008, 03:06:48 PM
ok...i am not breeding right now...just to clear that part up.  BUT...i have been told that when we do breed (in 3 years) the foundation b*tch must be able to be line bred with our dog now.  Is this something that has to be done? is there any books i could read to help me with this? I know i have a while, because our foundation b*tch was born actually today (i thought yesterday, but didn't happen) so i have quite a while.  BUT...should she be line bred? or could i do an outcross? **same breed, different lines** who do compliment eachother?

edited:cleaned up words a little
: Re: breeding help
: Gevaudan_Jo October 29, 2008, 04:32:37 PM
lets see... where to start...
Some breeders are big into "line breeding" because the lines they have are the lines they know and like, and trust... an out cross is good when you KNOW you need to bring something back into the lines... For instance, in our breed, the bull terrier, our foundation b*tch, is a petite white girl, Jigsaw. we have had her evaluated, shown and health tested. she is NOT a Champion, but that doesn't matter to me. as i have been told she IS a good starter b*tch, and i have been told by many great breeders, judges and handlers, what she needs in a male to improve on... this being said, we will out cross for her breeding into a male who is bigger in the head, and a more angled front...
this is what you really need to be looking for if you are going to breed your girl, evaluate her, have others do it (judges, breeders, etc) and find out what needs to be improved on... and definitely HEALTH TEST.... i can't stress this enough... 
I also agree entirely with what liz has posted- how do you (or the breeder) know that this girl, not even a full day old is of breeding quality???
: Re: breeding help
: Guardian Angel's White lightning October 29, 2008, 05:22:25 PM
i understand what you are saying about how do you know show quality.  As for titan, he looks just like his dad now.  his hips are doing ok, and i completely understand health testing!!! HEALTH TESTING all the way here.  he is only 16 months right now, at 18 we are getting pre-lim and then 2 ofa.  He is PRADNA, we have cerf to do again, heart, and thyroid again.  We don't know who is show quality.... actually i have been working with two breeders until i found out one of them did not testing at all on the dogs because she guarenteed them and believed that there is no we RAN from her and ended up with this other breeder.  There are 7 girls in the litter, all are a dark black brindle. So there has got to be least that was what i told the dam!
: Re: breeding help
: 2Criminals October 30, 2008, 05:36:01 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Titan have temperment issues? When you say his hips are "ok" does that mean he'll pass certification or does that mean they are good and a trait you want to pass on?

I like that you are projecting a start date of 3 years down the line as this gives you time to really learn about the breed, who are the good breeders and what traits you want to develop.

I think sometimes we love our own dogs so much that we fail to see their faults, don't get wrapped up in Titan having to be your stud and this new baby having to be your foundation bitch. Make friends with a breeder who you respect and follow the advice she/he gives you.

I've been to enough show to know to look at the breeder first and the dogs second.
: Re: breeding help
: Guardian Angel's White lightning October 30, 2008, 05:50:21 AM
titan has a fear, which he has gotten over thankfully.  He was scared of dogs his own size, perhaps something happened when i wasn't looking.  For the last several months we have been fine, and meeting other dogs more often now, since he comes to work with me.  he is much better.  as for his hips, we have not had another x-ray since he was 9 months old.  We are going to at 18months as well as all of the other health testings too.  I definilty look at the breeders first then the dog.  actually at dog shows, there are very few and far between of the breeders that actually show.  Many of them are all pro. handled and the breeder is no where.  Titan does have his CGC and his TDI too.  He is fine with other dogs, and is doing well.
: Re: breeding help
: Gevaudan_Jo October 30, 2008, 06:17:45 AM
you know, we have our bullie boy zero who we neutered and have only as pet, because he had an arrhythmia and he showed a slight aggression towards dogs and crowds... a fear is not something they just get over... if he does have a 'fear aggression' or had, even, i would strongly suggest him going to breeders and behaviorists before thinking of studding him.
the best time for health tests start at 2 years old, heart, kidney/liver, hips, etc. Im not sure of the tests needed to be done of mastiffs but id suggest doing all his testing after 2 years of age, at least!!! that is when 'maturity' hits and they are basically done growing inside & out... just a suggestion.
: Re: breeding help
: patrick October 30, 2008, 01:53:38 PM
Line breeding- with tested and outstanding lines of course is a very common practice.  With line breeding you basically know what you are going to get and your good traits are entrenched and not just a fluke.  With an outcross you don't know what is going to show up- some things may be good and some may be bad.  With a breeding program you do have to outcross periodically to keep your gene pool healthy but it has to be done carefully- hence your need for a mentor!  They can give you great advice on what lines produce what and what lines have problems in them or will not cross well with your dog's genetics.  Breeding decisions are very complex and best to learn from somebody with many years of experience. 
: Re: breeding help
: maxsmom October 31, 2008, 03:01:07 AM
Just a comment here.  Don't base your decisions of a good breeder on the dog's titles, particularly if they are using a handler at the shows.  A breeder showing and handling their own dogs is sometimes a much better indication of a dog meeting breed standards and being an outstanding dog.  A good handler can finish a poor quality dog, just because they know the tricks of the trade, how to camouflage faults, have ins with the judges, etc.  I have seen many winners at shows, that should never even have been in the show, let alone won anything, or ever be bred.  For some breeds, that whole happy, friendly, show persona, that you see in the dogs, is totally contrary to what the breed temperament is supposed to be and should be an automatic fault for the dog.
: Re: breeding help
: patrick November 03, 2008, 03:31:03 AM
Author: Cindy Tittle Moore, copyright 1995
part 6
_What is out crossing? _

Out crossing is where the sire and dam are totally unrelated, preferably for three or four generations. The true form of an outcross is between two entirely different breeds because in reality the members of most registered breeds come from a common ancestor (although it may be many, many generations back). It is very rare for out crossed puppies to be uniform in appearance. Usually there are very large ranges of sizes, coats, colors, markings, and other distinctive characteristic s. Out crossed litters are generally heterozygous, and do not reliably reproduce themselves, so even the nicest puppy in the litter may not later produce the best puppies.

Out crossing is generally used to introduce something new to a line -- a better head, better colors, better front, etc. Usually the puppies retained from these breedings are bred back into the breeder’s original line to standardize them back into the line’s general characteristic s and reproducibilit y -- with the one desired characteristic . The tricky part is that other characteristic s may come along for the ride!

If you are dedicated enough, you can eventually continue breeding by out crossing alone (but don't expect instant or quick results). You should pick dogs that complement each other well and are similar in general appearance. This is a long hard road to eventually developing a line. Through out crossing, many health problems can quickly be eliminated (or just as quickly added into your breeding), but usually you do sacrifice some show quality and producibility.

You have to remember that dogs that appear totally healthy may be carriers of genetic problems. To find this out, test mating is done to a dog that is affected with the genetic problem (resulting usually in puppies that are both affected and non-affected carriers) or by inbreeding to a related dog that also doesn't show the signs of being affected (usually littermates are used) this will usually result in some puppies free of the problem, some puppies as carriers, and some puppies affected if both dogs carry the problem gene (this is not as accurate as breeding to an affected dog, but you are less likely to have to put all the puppies down).

There are variations on out crossing. A "true" outcross could be a dog that has totally unrelated dogs bred together throughout the pedigree. This is very rare. On the other hand, "line crossing" is a form of out crossing where dogs from unrelated lines are bred to produce a new line. The sire and dam are usually very line bred from their prospective lines and the resulting puppies are varied in appearance, some looking like the sire's line and some looking like the dam's line and some looking like mixtures of both lines.

_How about line breeding? _

Line breeding is when the sire and the dam are distantly related: e.g., grandsire to granddaughter, grand dam to grandson, second cousins, half cousins, uncle to niece, aunt to nephew..... The general strategy is that there is a common ancestor that is being doubled up on both sides. So the desired dog appears several times in the pedigree.

This is probably the most common strategy in breeding purebred dogs (and in developing new breeds, for that matter). Though this method, new genes are slowly introduced and unwanted genes are slowly replaced. The actual rate varies by how strongly you line breed. It sacrifices little overall quality in terms of show quality. Usually the puppies are rather close in general conformation. The only problem with this method is that it often takes several generations to get poor genes out, (or adding desired genes in) resulting in many puppies that have the same genetic problems (or virtues) that their parents have. And then because some breeders are more interested in winning, they do not place the affected puppies on spay/neuter contracts. This is both a blessing and a curse for the breed. If the breeder is very careful, affected pups can be used wisely to prevent loss of quality, but still remove the affected genes by only breeding the affected pups to known non-carrier relatives. This way the breeder can again try to “edit out" the bad genes. It takes longer this way but less show quality is lost in the process. This process results in dogs that will often reproduce their same level of quality. This is referred to as reaching homozygous litters (more genes of the same kind apparent in the puppies).

Inbreeding and line breeding really differ only in degree. Line breeding is less likely to cause harm than inbreeding. Inbreeding is not for novices. Knowledge of genetics and the breed is required for success. For good results it must be well-planned and breeders must be ready for whatever problems it presents.

_And inbreeding? _

Inbreeding is where the sire and the dam are closely related: mother to son, father to daughter, sister to brother, half sister to half brother, cousin to cousin. People disagree about the exact point at which inbreeding becomes line breeding. Inbreeding is the quickest way to find out what poor genes are in the line and what dominant characteristic s are in the line.

Although many people are disgusted with the idea of this family incest, it is an extremely useful tool for diagnosing what genes are present. If the genes for bad eyes are present, but hidden or recessive, this will bring them out to their full extent. If there isn't any bad genes, then the puppies will be of very close uniformity and very able to reproduce themselves (theoretically). This is a homozygous breeding. The resulting puppies will have a lot of genetic material that is the same as their parents and grandparents and will be close genetically to each other.

Inbreeding doesn't introduce new genes and does not eliminate bad genes that the line already has. It only shifts them around like a rubix cube. This often results in litters with high show potential, if the quality was high to begin with. It shows you what recessives you have lurking in the dogs' backgrounds -- _both_ good and bad. But there are drawbacks. Besides the possibility of bad recessives, inbreeding exclusively will eventually lead to infertility. It's like a Xerox machine. After so many copies, you have to renew the ink. The same with dogs, you have to introduce new genes. No reputable breeder will use inbreeding exclusively, and many breeders simply never use it. Usually, you will only find: very experienced breeders, ignorant breeders, and puppy mills making use of this technique.

Inbreeding increases the chance that a gene obtained from the sire will match one obtained from the dam, both stemming from the common ancestor(s) on which the individual was inbred. Thus, inbreeding tends to make animals homozygous rather than heterozygous. The inbreeding coefficient measures the resulting increase in homozygousity. All breeds have a given degree of homozygosity the mating of two dogs from the same breed would not produce a recognizable specimen of the breed!

Inbreeding increases homozygosity and decrease heterozygosity . So it can duplicate both desirable and harmful alleles, both of which can be unsuspected in the line, and may appear. Inbreeding does NOT create anomalies; it brings present anomalies to the surface. Even when the anomalies are present, inbreeding might not reveal them. However, once revealed, then the breeder can do something about them in the next generations of breeding.

An increase in harmful recessives is undesirable but it is not a major drawback if they are identified early. The effect of inbreeding on major polygenic traits is greater. Generally, traits that are highly inherited (i.e. largely additively controlled) are not adversely affected by inbreeding but, traits under non-additive control, especially those tied to dominance and thus not of high heritability, are often markedly harmed by inbreeding.
: Re: breeding help
: ruffian November 03, 2008, 04:07:52 AM
With my limited breeding knowledge, and mostly related to Shiba Inu, I am going to add one bit of advice I was given by Tonkas breeder.  Buying a puppy bitch in hopes that it is a match to your stud is foolish, the chances that she will have what your male is lacking when they are both grown are slim to nil.  What if they are both lacking in shoulder for instance, what will you do then?  She recommended buying a batch that is at the very least a year old, by that age you can see for the most part what she has and compare it to your male.  This is why most breeders have several males and females, because they dont all match, heck I even know breeders who only have one or the other.
: Re: breeding help
: AltDeutsche November 03, 2008, 05:14:20 AM
I wanted to get the book Breeding Better Dogs. They have a website too.
This might help a little understanding Genetics and improving the breed. I am not a breeder now but have thought in 15 years... maybe.