Big Paws Only Dog Forums
BPO Training Forum => Behavior, Housebreaking, Obedience => : Stacey October 03, 2005, 05:48:36 AM
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I have been trying to teach Tonka some manners lately, and that includes trying to make him wait to eat until I tell him to. My method so far has been to make him "sit" and then set the bowl down. He will try to lunge for it and I stop him and make him sit again which after 2 or three trys he will usually stop rushing the bowl and wait for my OK. The problem is that while he is sitting and the food is there he barks at me. I didn't think much of this and then someone told me that is a sign of aggression (I thought it was just frustration that would pass once he realized that he is going to get to eat if he settles down) and that he is asserting his dominance over me and I am giving in by submitting to his "yelling" at me. So.....is this true? and if so, what do I do? How do I teach him to calmly wait for his food? ???
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The easy answer to that is you don't.
You stop frustrating a hungry puppy.
How would you like it if someone kept you from your food until you sang the Star Spangled Banner exactly right every time? LOL
Ask him to sit, and when he does, put the food down and let him eat.
Practice your long stays somewhere else besides meal time.
;)
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Of course there is a very positive aspect to his food motivation. He'll be easy to train, and a cheerful worker if you train him properly with the right rewards and motivation.
:D
How old is he again?
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He is 13 weeks old and I started trying this about a week ago, when I had read that you should teach dogs to wait to eat until given a command. But you make way too much sense Red, I probably expect to much from him so early. Another question....ho w do I keep him from rushing the other dogs bowls once he cleans his.....it is stressing them out and causing them to become a little food aggressive in their attempts to protect their bowls from him.
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You need to either separate your dogs inside and outside, or in different rooms, or in crates.
I like to allow my dogs to have the calmest quietest eating time possible.
I feel this is particularly important for the large deep chested dogs who can be susceptible to bloat and torsion.
Find a quiet private area for each dog, and feed them there. Feed your SENIOR pack dog first, and so on the so forth, down to the puppy.
It is fine to make him obey a command before he eats, but please try to remember he is just a little baby boy, and he's growing SO fast at his age. When it's mealtime he's HUNGRY!! Eating is the highlight of his day. Get a quick sit, and then feed the pup.
:D
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He is probably also barking at you because he associates a positive reaction to the bark. He barks and you give him the food. I don't necessarily think that it is an aggression issue, but he learned quickly the first time that 'when I bark the food follows'. So he actually learned the behavior of associating food and barking. Good luck with training your pup, following Reds advice will help you greatly!
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I have to say...I have two dogs and both dogs eat in their own crates with a blanket dividing them...they both run right in there and sit (wel zero is too tall to sit inside LOL) I have noticed
Both dogs take their time eating
arent worrying about what the other dog is doing
and rest once they are done
Here they are before I put a blanket inbetween to divide the two crates
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I will start feeding him seperately from the other two. Their mealtimes used to be so leisurly and calm and now everyone is trying to eat their food as quickly as possible to protect it from Tonka (who eats every meal as if it is his first and last!).
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I had to teach Bubba to wait until I give the ok. Otherwise he was bulldozing me to get to the bowl and half the time I didn't even have it on the floor yet. There's been kibble throw all over the floor more times than I can remember.
Now I have him sit, tell him to wait, put the bowl down and as soon as I stand up and get out of bulldozer range I give him the ok.
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Great suggestions everyone. I too make Bear wait and sit until I say "ok". It is consistency that makes it work. Good luck!
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How old were they when you started doing this and how did you do it? I have to put the bowl down and get out of the way as quickly as possible. He will immediately sit when I bring his bowl over but as soon as I set it down he is running over me!
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Don't you have a crate? You can stop all of this problem by just using the crate. Put the pup in the crate, and then put the bowl in the crate, and close the door.
OR stand beside the puppy, and put the bowl down in front of him.
OR put the bowl down in a room, close the door as you leave, and then go get the puppy and take him to the bowl.
I just don't think it's right to make a hungry puppy do obedience before he can eat his food. JMO, there are many different ways to get the same result.
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I have read many good points on this one and I agree with most of you. I have found that any time food is involved with a pet, it could be good time to train them, at least a little bit. It sounds like Tonka isn't acclimated yet to responding to your verbal commands. Tonka will continue to rush the food bowl until you get him to listen to you. There's a good solution to this...
Most of Drake's training came from his 4 week Family Dog 1 Class at the local Humane Society. I really encourage all dog owners, especially new dogs, to attend these classes if they are available. They give you a good base to work with and you're actually working with professionals with your dog rather than trying to do it on your own. It's not too expensive ($25) and it's only a few nights a week. We were able to train Drake in the basics and then go to more advanced commands. We can put food on his paws now and he won't eat it unless we say "OK". Family Dog 1 is a great investment in your dog and it's really fun too! I honestly believe any dog, even Tonka, can learn good manners if you are willing to work with them. Check with your local humane society, you'll be glad you did. ;D
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I have to agree with Red on this. If you have already perfected the sit and stay, then by all means work on it when feeding. But if this hasn't been perfected their are so many other opportunities to work on this problem throughout the rest of the day. Why not use training treats to obtain the results that you are looking for first, then work on meal times. The puppy is hungry and doesn't have his full attention focused on you when it is meal time, and getting the pup to understand that his full attention is required will take some time and training. Patience is the key here. And of course some pups are easier to work with than others. Either way, consistency is vital, without it the pup will not understand what is being asked of him.
By the way, your pup is so beautiful ;D!
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I agree with Red also but there are other ways too. My friend has a fire investigation dog that sniffs out accelerants after fires to find out the cause. He has a daily routine that his dog "Andre" must do everyday, and I mean he never misses a day. Only after he has finished his daily accelrant identifying mission does he get fed. Sounds pretty stern but Andre won top fire dog for the entire country. :D
Peggy
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Just keep in mind this is a 13 week old large breed puppy who is STARVING when it's time to eat.
;)
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For now I will just keep the "stay" training separate from feeding time. Later on when he is a little older and secure in the fact that he IS going to eat I will try again with the wait to eat training. I agree with Red in that he may just be too young to be expected to do this. Thanks for everyones suggestions... .what is the best way to teach "stay"??
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Maybe his bark is just a very nice "oh goody dinner, thanks mom".
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LOL...I like that!! I think you are right!!
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Chester used to do that to....bark like mad while I was preparing his and Cowboy's bowls. Cowboy always lays quietly until he hears the spoon hit the counter...then Katie bar the door! Somehow that made an impression on Chester and they both lay quietly in the kitchen until I'm ready to put ther bowls down. Cowboy is a great trainer ;D
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That is EXACTLY like Tonka!! From the minute I pick up his food bowl he is barking (roooo-roooo hahah....I love his bark!) and then when I go to put the bowl back in the feeder he sits for me....but if I take any longer than a second to put his bowl down he starts barking at me ::)!! In all honesty (and I know this is probably bad!) but I think it is cute and endearing...BU T I was just confused as to whether or not to let it continue. I know that it is caused by the fact that I was trying to teach him something he is seemingly not ready or willing to learn LOL but it was worth a shot and I will just have to put the "wait to eat" on the back burner for a little while.
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You know there are lots of great ways to teach stay just like there are lots of training ways that are all acceptable and work. I will tell you the way I like to do it. I put them in a sit position and then first back off a step and face the dog with both hands, palms facing the dog along with the verbal command "stay". If the dog at first does it for a very short time, great. I reward with praising and love.
I personally do not use treats for the basic obedience commands and stay is one of them - I use great loud praise sounds especially goooooooood dog. I use treats for more complicated commands that are above and beyond the call of obedience commands.
Each time the dog is successful with Stay I back step a little further always using the command "Stay" along with the hand signal. After a lot of practice you can drop the verbal command if you want to and just use the hand signal for the dog to stay in any position you put him in.
I like hand signals only because I hate to hear people shouting and screaming at their dogs.
Just my uncomplicated way.
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Here is how I do it.
:D
I NEVER repeat stay commands.
If the dog does not learn to REMEMBER to stay, the command is useless.
I begin teaching the sit/stay by asking the puppy to sit in heel position. After giving a clear verbal STAY command, and showing the puppy the palm of my hand, fingers together, pointing down, I then hold enough upward pressure on the leash so that the puppy will not move, and pivot directly in front of the puppy so I'm standing toe to toe with her. Keep the gentle pressure upwards. Count to 5, pivot back, release the collar pressure, and at the same time, release and praise the puppy.
Practice in this manner until you can do this, on a loose leash, and count to 30 and the puppy is not moving. DO NOT repeat the word stay. If you have to put her back, once she IS back, you can say GOOD sit, DO NOT SAY STAY AGAIN.
You can reward good responses with gentle low key verbal praise, and food rewards.
Once you can count to 30 while standing in front of the puppy, and the puppy is consistently NOT moving when you move in front, or back to heel position, you can move out to the end of your 6 foot lead. Remember that when you start adding distance, you may end up having to position the dog back again. NO repeating stay. Say GOOD sit, instead.
When you can stand at the end of the leash and count to SIXTY without the pup moving, and when you can go back to heel position by passing around behind her, and you are not getting any movement, you can start introducing distraction.
Distraction can be defined as anything that will get your dog's attention, and cause them to break their stay.
Yep, you WANT them to break. Each time they do, put them back, and praise them for staying. You want to distract a dog into moving a couple of times, and then moderate the distraction slightly so the dog can be successful, release and praise, and then move on to something else.
Don't overdo distraction. The dog has to have the distraction to learn more about the stay concept, but you must not overwhelm her. She needs to be successful often enough so that you keep her interest.
Stay is a precision exercise that takes TIME and PRACTICE for the dog to get reliable, along with creative distractions.
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Thank you!! I am going to begin working on this tomorrow with Tonka. He has sit and is doing well with heeling. I have also taught him to sit in the heel position whenever I stop (when he is on the leash.) I was a little mystified about how to teach "stay". Thank you for the lesson and I will let you know how it goes!
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Sometimes when you start moving away from the pup when teaching stays, the pup just insists on following you.
This exercise can help most dogs learn about stay, and sometimes in the very beginning stages, it can help a puppy learn to stay when you move away.
Here is how....
Standing in front of the pup, with the puppy sitting, gently grasp the muzzle with your right hand, while holding the leash in your other hand. Put enough gentle steady pressure on the leash so that the puppy can feel it, and sort of (very gently) push with your hand on the muzzle, and use a steady gentle pull on the leash until you feel the puppy resisting away from the tug of the leash. It needs only be enough pressure to keep the puppy gently resisting it. Then gently and slowly release the pressure on the leash. Then gradually apply it again. If the puppy make a mistake, and gets up, gently put her back, and do the little muzzle hold, leash pull again until she is resisting.
This is a frequent game/test I play with my dogs who are learning stay, and also with those who already know it.
:D
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Hope the training is going well with Tonka. Keep working with him and one day he will be a well behaved and mindful dog. He could even do this.....
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LOL....now that is discipline!! :o
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What an absolutely GORGEOUS dog!!! And well trained too!
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Drake has some really big feet :)
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That is our favorite trick with Drake. He is so good about that one. We usually use chicken jerky and we put down about 5 or 6 pieces and make him "LEAVE IT". This kind of trick really helps when we eat dinner at the coffee table and he is lurking around for freebies. He isn't drooling because I gave him the "NO DROOL" command. ;D J/k, I wish there was such a thing. Those mini burgers are perfect special treats for him, we don't feed him that kind of stuff very much, but it made for a good pic. He does have pretty big paws, but I think the little burgers make them look that bigger. An optical illusion maybe?
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you know what they say "big paws, big ............. :-*
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:o
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How is the Tonka training going? Is he better behaved at the dinner table now? Are you balancing Mini-burgers on his feet yet? ;D Update!
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Practice your long stays somewhere else besides meal time.
I disagree with this. (As do most behaviorists)
If you are showing your dog you control the resources, you should control the resources.
The true test if the human is the leader of the pack is this one:
Does your dog sit undemanding until you free him to get his food?
In the dog world, the leader does exactly that- a subordinate dog waits until it is his turn and is allowed by the lead dog.
This isn't about practicing "long stays", it is about establishing pack order.
A happy dog knows it rank in the pack.
If the dog is barking, then the food bowl goes away and I leave the room.
To me- that is noncompliance--
For tips on teaching a quiet sit with only PRAISE---see my other posting.