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BPO Food Forum => Food Discussion & Information => : mamadog April 25, 2005, 02:19:30 PM
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I don't think I've posted this question here yet....if I have please forgive me!
My question is about the BARF diet (bones and raw food). Does anyone here have information about this diet? Por's con's to feeding it or not? I have heard from some people who use it, that say it's better for your dogs, but they haven't said why, or how it's better. And I haven't heard from anyone against the diet say why it's bad for dogs. My breeder is against it and it would void Finns health contract if we do it. I don't know that I would have the stomach to feed my dogs raw meat anyway.... but in the spirit of being informed and just out of curiosity I'd love to hear what everyone thinks.... good and bad!
Thanks,
Vicki
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Hi. A lot of the Shiloh Shepard people are big into the BARF diet. I love my guys with all my heart but with all the animals I have it is way too complicated. I can go back & try to find this link I once read that had a lot of info.
Carolyn
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BARF philosophy is based on the argument that since dogs and cats are evolved from wild animals such as wolves and lions, we should feed our pets a similar diet.
Many veterinarians discourage BARF diets because they claim to have seen an increase in pancreas, stomach and intestinal injuries; kidney, heart and brain illnesses and bacterial parasites in animals on long-term BARF diets; and that many pets show no sign of sickness until a few days before death.
I was feeding Beauty half raw and half kibble for a little while, but after all the extra research I read I would not do it now. It is a matter of opinion, and there are many web sites out there, but the majority of info I have states that by feeding the BARF diet your dog is more susecptible to death either from splinters of bones piercing the intestional tract, or serious internal infections. The types of infections mentioned above come on very fast and are quick to kill. You really have to be nutrition savvy to adequately design a diet of raw foods for your pet. It is very time consuming and I am not so sure altogether healthy. I feed a quality dog food and add wet food when Beauty is feeling "picky" I don't think a little raw here and there is going to hurt anything, but fuul time I think could be a problem based on the research I have read. This is agood site with info if you are curious. Good Luck! http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/feeding_a_raw_diet_htm.htm
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www.greatdanel ady.com
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That about wraps it up. Mixing the 2 diets Iv'e been told is very bad. I did find barfworld.com on one of the disccussions. My Kiya is a burper, we tried to determine if her diet was a cause. I used Pro-plan for years but now I've switched to Nutro. The money they charge for these "better quality" foods you would think you shouldn't have to wonder about ingredients.
Carolyn
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I was using Solid Gold Wolf King, and then Wolf Cub (puppy food) which of course Beauty has been on for quite a while now. I switched her a few weeks ago to holistic "Ultra" by Nutro. I agree with the cost of quality food one should not have to wonder of the ingredients or nutritional value! She like it better than Solid Gold, and both are the same price. Extra benefit is the buyer plan. 10 bags 1 free, or 10 cases wet/1 free. As I buy both in large lots that was a little incentive I liked after the ingredients and nutritional value. Early on I did find that even though a food was "cheaper" the dogs ate more, qualityis more expensive butl ess fillers are used, they eat less, and while the initial cost seems outrageous in the long run it evens out pretty close. I buy less of quality food because they eat less.
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I have also heard a lot of different arguments for or against BARF, a lot of people swear on it. For awhile I was actually thinking about giving mine. But after having read as much as I could get my hands on, I realized that, it is not only to give raw food, it has to be the right kind of raw, also bones, the right kind and of course mixed up with veg. and grains, so well it sounded way too complicated with several dogs in the house. And here comes the shelfish reason, I do kiss my dogs lol...... And the thought of them having ate BARF and then giving me all kinds of slobber kisses noooooo. I stick to a real good quality kibble.
Marit
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I find it quite sad that a breeder would restrict (you Vicki) from keeping your dog healthy in anyway, and at the extreme would void a "contract" for really treating your dog as if he/she were yours!! You own him/her & no doubt will do the very best for your pet. I would never buy from this breeder again, or at the least pass some information on in the hope that she/he learns a little bit more about dog nutrition.
Here are some completely unfounded, modern MYTHS: #1: The digestive system of the modern domesticated dog is much "weaker" than a wild dog's, and that is why modern dogs have to be fed differently to their wild cousins. This belief is based on nothing other than opinion. No scientific studies to back it up. On the contrary, the experiences of both scientists and numerous dog owners the wold over confirm that the internal workings, including the entire digestive system, and the way food is utilised for growth, maintenance, repair and reproduction, is fundamentally the same in all dogs, both wild and domesticated, large and small. #2: Myth Number 2... Dogs should NOT eat bones and raw meat.... #3: All dog food should be cooked. Unfortunately these ideas are self-perpetuating. Dogs fed cooked and processed food and no bones will always develop a weakened immune system and poor dental health. #4: You have to have a university degree in dog nutrition to be able to successfully feed a dog. Because people have believed that modern dogs cannot be fed like wild dogs, they have attempted to feed dogs in all sorts of unnatural ways without bones. The results have often proven disasterous. These disasters have lead many people, including vets to believe that feeding dogs is difficult. This idea is reinforced by massive "education" campaigns launched by the major dog food companies. Daily at meal times on TV, weekly at dog shows, and monthly in various magazines, this message is reinforced in advertising... . "You can't feed your dog properly... but we can!" Myth #5: The best way to feed your dog is with commercial dog food. Myth #6: Each meal should be "complete" and "balanced".
The source of the mentioned myths can be referenced in a book by Dr. BIllinghurst, "Give Your Dog A Bone". And can be purchased through our website: www.TheDogBowl .com
I hope this helps start the quest for information on this subject. There is a lot of information out there - some good, some bad, some hearsay, some factual. Just remember this is your pet(s), not to mention big investment in heart and capital. The best thing you can do for both yourself and your beloved animal is learn the facts and trust in your own knowledge!
Sincerely,
The Dog Bowl
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Isn't there a risk of choking on chicken bones? They splinter very easily. What kind of bones are safe?
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It is the cooked bone that gets one in trouble - they become brittle & splinter when cooked. If you think about raw chicken when you are preparing it for dinner.... The raw chicken is spongy. A dog eats by tearing & grinding it's food. Having a bone is actually a good workout too!
I don't know if you have a gulper, but I would suggest to give a turkey neck or chicken wing after hitting it with a mallet.
The Dog Bowl has a Yahoo group, it is simply yahoo.group.th edogbowl & anyone wanting more information about raw feeding or ask individual questions is welcome to join. (There is also a link on the www.TheDogBowl .com website, "Client Feedback & Results" page. Also I highly recommend any of the books listed on the "Order" page.
Hope this helps,
The Dog Bowl
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I tried the BARF diet with my Newfs for a short time. They LOVED the diet especially the raw chicken bones and I must admit I was scared to death the first time I give them raw chicken necks but they chomped away happily! The down side is that they both got sick (for other reasons) and the results of their blood tests showed that they both had a food-borne illness (campypliobasci s ??? and salmonella) and had to be treated with Baytril to get rid of it. I now buy meat without bone from the raw food store that is mixed with vegtables, cook it and then add calcium and enzymes after it's cooked. My Newf is thriving on it!! Clean blood tests, beautiful coat and healthy and no stomach problems. AND smaller poops as well, since there is no filler!!!
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I was just thinking about that, Salmonella I mean, with raw meat, cant dogs get salmonella just aswell as humans???
Marit
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Obviously there are buzz words that draw alarm to something that is foreign... such as the raw diet. Unlike people, dogs have extremely different diguestive systems. The best thing I can tell you is investigate & learn. Trush your knowledge & scientific studies, not hearsay or cultural myths. There are a ton of sources available, some good, some bad.
I personally know how you feel and can appreciate the questions. 7 years ago my rescue dog Sophia was extremely sickly, had bad teeth, poor skin, diarrhea, etc. I had tried the advice of 2 vets (which costs started at $100 per visit + meds) and several different diets.... Mainly out of desperation to help her health & as a last resort, I gave in to the thought of feeding raw. And after some investigation & experimentatio n there was no going back to anything else. I would highly recommend the "Give Your Dog A Bone" book by Dr. Billinghurst. (www.TheDogBOwl .com has them in stock)
Hope this helps,
The Dog BOwl
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Thank's a lot for all your very educated advice. I will absolutely look into it more and take your advice when it comes to litt. Like you said, when something is fairly new, you always have a lot of different information going around, the hard part is to filter them all, so what you end up with is facts not just a lot of opinions.
Marit
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Here is the recipe for you, if you don't already have it.
Ingredients
10 pounds hamburger meat [the cheapest kind]
1 lg. box of Total cereal
1 lg. box oatmeal
1 jar of wheat germ
1 1/4 cup veg oil
1 1/4 cup of unsulfured molasses
10 raw eggs AND shells
10 envelopes of unflavored gelatin
pinch of salt
Mix all ingredients together, much like you would a meatloaf.
Divide into 10 quart freezer bags and freeze.
Thaw as needed and feed raw!
IF you have any more questions just do a search on the net and theres a wealth of info out there for you.
awo
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You know I have always been a little anti, to BARF one reason being that just thinking about getting a big slobber kiss after a BARF meal grossed me out :-[ But that recipe sounds okay even for me. I could do that. The K9 nutritionist I most of the times turn to, suggests to even if you give kibble to give about 1/3 of a can (or meat about that amount) I wonder if I could make this recipe and give that rather than the canned food (I now give Eagle Pack, both the kibble and the can) but even if that is supposed to be a good can food, the idea of hamb. meat still sounds way better.
Marit
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Here is a very informative web page in which a number of wolf experts and DVMs discuss feeding bones to dogs and wolves. They digress into the subject of wolves consuming the hide of their meal which, in turn, aids in the digestion and movement of bone fragments through the GI tract.
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/wolfexrep.html
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Here is another link that discusses by-products. I cannot say what is good or bad, because everything is so wishy-washy these days. I try to do what keeps my dogs healthy and if they are healthy, why change? Anyway, on this site there is information about books that supposedly cite scientific evidence regarding the canine diet.
Here is a quote: If you are interested in learning more about sensible nutritional practices, I would recommend these two books, The AAFCO Publication and Canine and Feline Nutrition by Case, Carey and Hirakawa; C.V. Mosby, for your library. You could spend lots of interesting hours discovering what many veterinarians and other animal caretakers have not... that sensible nutritional practices are based on proven scientific research.
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/nutrition.html
It seems to be a good resouce, though I think the site is geared toward a specific pet food. The books do not seem to be affiliated with the "Animal Food Services" pet food, though.
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The interesting thing about this is that I am a bit of a "nature freak". I am very careful about the foods I buy for my family (free range chicken, organic produce etc) I am going to school to become a midwife, I don't take ANY medications (including tylenol and the like) unless I feel it is absolutly needed. We cut down trees and chop our own fire wood, my husband hunts. I feel cofident that we could, as a family move out to the middle of the woods and servive just fine without modern conveniences. Now my point, if we were to do that feeding my dogs a raw diet would be a given. It would feel natural and right (afterall, how else would I feed them?) There is something about city living that changes a persons prospective on things. There are many things that we would all make due without and probably not miss much if we HAD to do without them. But living in a place and time that pushes pre-packaged, disposable, inpersonal, sterile crap... well I admit that I have in some ways become part of that. I do not use commercially made pads or tampons and that doesn't seem odd to me at all, but that's something that people don't talk about much so I am free to step away from the norm because there are no expectations about THAT. People don't ask me what kind of tampons I use, but I do get asked a lot and told what I (should) feed my dog! It's the NORM to fed our dogs commercial dog food. No one anywhere, until recently even suggested that we had other viable options. So when you've been programmed to do a certain thing for so long, even when another choice comes along it scary to make the change. In 20 years this conversation may seem silly because trends will have changed, opinions will have changed and perhaps Alpo will start making raw commercial dog food that people can feel good about feding their dogs.
Life has gotten to crazy that people often don't have time to prepare their dog food. Most hardly can find the time to prepare their human meals! If it can't be found pre-packaged in the market it's not right. That's where life has gone. You can buy pre-made PB&J sandwiches because apparently we're all so busy we can't even take the time to make a sandwich for our kids anymore! (Though I think the real message is that if you do have time you're not working hard enough)
Why do people feed un-sure of feeding raw? Because we live in a time where we are supposed to work hard, live fast and never have a moments rest...and leave the rest to the "experts". We aren't supposed to know what's best for our pets or ourselves...th ere are big companies making lots of money off of telling us what that is.... and selling it to us, conveniently packaged in isle 10.
I may know better, but I'm still guilty of it.
(Wow, I don't know where that rant just came from!)
Vicki
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And, I agree wholeheartedly . It is the society we live in. It is just like putting an environmental sticker on any vehicle. Sometimes it is what we have to do to survive without going absolutely crazy or trying to survive on two hours of sleep because we have so many responsibiliti es.
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Someday I'll either live on a mountain top with my husband and live off the land, no jobs, no hustle and bustle OR I'll live in a padded room with people bringing me my meals and planning my day for me. Either way, I'm getting out of this rat race!!! LOL Who's coming with me??!!
Vicki
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Vicki, I WANNA GO TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...I've had it!...That kind of life sounds like bliss!...Hard work & clean living & being SATISFIED with your life at the end of the day. ;D