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BPO Gear Forum => Collars, crates, & other cool things => : Newf Lover October 20, 2005, 11:43:38 PM

: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Newf Lover October 20, 2005, 11:43:38 PM
I have read several posts about people having issues with their dogs being in crates all day, snapping, barking, etc. etc. and I'm curious about the logic behind it all.  I can't imagine crating being something thats enjoyable for a dog.  We crated Drake when he was a puppy and it just seemed so mean.  Once he was housebroken, we stopped that practice.  I really haven't done a lot of research on this topic, but what is the logic behind crate training?  I can see if you live in an apartment or small house with no yard and you don't want your dog destroying your furniture and making a mess or if you show dogs and you want them to be presentable, but are those the only reasons?  I would feel horrible doing that to Drake, although he spends most of the day sleeping in the garage, it is nice to know he can get up and stretch his legs and drink water if he needs to.  We had friends who crated their Weimriener and when they visited us, they always had to leave early because they had to let her out of her cage.  It totally controlled their social life and activities.  They had a big back yard and plenty of space, but they still crated her.  She barked all of the time when she was in the cage and it just seemed to be mean.  She would go crazy every time they let her out.  PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE UNDERSTAND, I'm not trying to be judgemental or condescending, that really isn't my intent.  I just don't understand why some folks do this, so that's why I'm questioning the practice.  It just seems most animals hate being in cages for extended periods of time.  Can you guys enlighten me on why you do this rather than letting your dog have free roam?  I am open to all points of views, so fill me in!  ???
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Luvmydanes October 20, 2005, 11:55:17 PM
We used to crate Dane at night only when he was in the house until we got him potty trained (to where he could hold it until morning when we could let him outside) so he isn't crated anymore, but Jasmine is still crated at night only for the same reasons. I am actually glad you brought this topic up, cause I was going to post about it to ask for some advice. Jasmine is crated at night, and a few nights she has even broke out and then peed all over the place. We let them out before we go to bed to potty, (around 9-10pm). I am wanting to train her to just sleep out of the crate next to our bed like Dane does, but am not even sure how to begin doing this. I am afraid she will wake up in the middle of the night, wonder off, and pee everywhere. Any suggestions. That is why we crate. I dont think I am comfortable enough to leave my dogs inside the house while we are gone, but we put them outside at least where they can run around.

Kandi
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Scootergirl October 20, 2005, 11:57:53 PM
Actually, most dogs find comfort in enclosed spaces when they are alone or afraid of something. We had a schnoodle when I was a teenager who would always crawl into the small space behind my headboard whenever there was a thunderstorm. It's part of the "denning" instinct, I guess.

Crating provides a safe, comfortable place to keep your pet when it is left alone, provided it is done correctly and the pet is not left there for extremely long periods of time.  The crate must always be large enough so the dog can stand up and turn around in it.

Using a crate to train your dog can save you a lot of frustration on finding "surprises" left for you in the middle of the night and they are often trained much faster when using this method. As a puppy, the crate must be large enough to be comfortable for the dog, but NO LARGER. You don't want the puppy to have enough room to potty in his cage and get away from it. Dogs typically do not like to relieve themselves in the same place they sleep so they will learn to hold it until let out.

However, crating is indeed cruel if
1) the crate is too small
2) the dog is left in the crate more than it is out of the crate

Your inquiry was NOT taken as offensive at all. I thought you presented your question about crating very well. Again, some people don't need to use this method, but it's always a good idea to get a dog used to a crate in case you have to travel, move or the dog is displaced due to a disaster (fire, hurricane, tornado, etc.).
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: lins_saving_grace October 21, 2005, 12:04:14 AM
I hate having to confine my girls...since they love to move and run.  But it's safe for them to be in their crate while we're at work and during the night (for now).  We don't want things eaten and destroyed while we're gone or asleep.  But we've made the crate a fun thing.  We say "go to bed" and they run downstairs and pile into their crates.  It's their "room".  I think they find structure in their crate and their schedules and comfort in having something only for them. 
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: VdogLover October 21, 2005, 12:19:08 AM
 My dogs love their crates but then again I work out of my home so they are hardly ever forced to be locked in one for any length of time. I only have them to separate during feeding time and when they have their raw bones since 2 of them just aren't happy with only one bone:)
 I understand people using them for housebreaking or for confinement of a destructive dog but I do think they are often abused.
I have had alot of B&T dogs who were victims of this. Owner locks the dog way for 8 hours while at work comes home the dog is "Crazy" and to wild to be around the kids so back in the crate the dog goes....it becomes a circle of a frustrated owner & dog.
Even with the removal of the kids from the picture some have been spending 16+ hours a day in the crate (if it sleeps in one also). Can you imagine spending 16 hours a day confined to a box??
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: brandon October 21, 2005, 12:23:07 AM
It's either the crate or get out of bed every few minutes to find out what new thing Bava is chewing on.  We tried last night out of the crate, we've been leaving the door open and he will go in it to sleep when he gets ready, but it was 11something and we were ready to go to sleep

#1, Ripping Sounds? Oh Heck.. Bava has a quilt on the floor he is holding between his feet and tearing sections out of

#2, Crunching.. Oh he found on of the birds nut hulls or something

#3,  A dowel? He has a wooden dowel he is chewing the end off of.

#4, licking sounds.. Oh neat he's trying to drink from Melissa's water glass on the night stand beside her head.

He chewed the end off the area rug at some point also :)

I think that was it for last night.. we put him back in his crate so we could sleep and he wouldn't eat something he shouldn't.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Icerotti October 21, 2005, 12:26:47 AM
Puck has never been crated since he came to us. There has been no need to. Plus I like having him on guard duty at night inside the house. My husband works a variation of days and nights--it is one reason why we have a rotti for protection( and he is a good snuggler)

Farley..omg... if Farley was left uncrated during the day while we were out--I would be afraid of what I might come home to..lol  He gets in enough trouble when I am here with him. ::) Oddly enough he does not have to be crated at night--he sleeps in our room and is great. Doesn't chew anything, pee, etc. I would like to get to the point when he gets older of not having to crate him at all. He is still a puppy too though. He does get crated when no one can be with him in the house. That may be a few hours somedays. It is known (and I am not saying all Vs are like this) that when V's are bored they do/can become very destructive------hence the 1 hour plus excersice needed a day for them :o 
I am looking foward to the day were we do not have to crate Farley at all ;D

Overall his time is very limited in the crate. I m at home most of the time :D
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Newf Lover October 21, 2005, 12:26:56 AM
These are all good points so far.  I totally agree that a crate is a good method to potty train and a prevention for destructive behaviour.  But it just seems mean to keep them in a crate all day.  I see why many dogs don't want to do it, I wouldn't want to be stuck in a small space for hours at a time.  I understand the whole "den" mentality for dogs too, that makes total sense, but what Canines in nature stay in their dens all day long? Coyotes and Jackels hunt sometimes at night, but they do go out during the day.  Some dogs adapt to Crates, but I know Drake would hate it and it would negatively affect him.  Newfs are so sensitive, I've seen a lot of Newfs in crates at dag shows and they won't even look you in the eye when they're in there, but once they're out it's tail waggin', sloppy kiss time. 
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: lins_saving_grace October 21, 2005, 12:34:07 AM
I remind myself that it's the best thing for me to do during the day for the dogs.  They don't really sit in there counting the minutes till I get home and stewing over the fact that they are in their crates.   :)
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Newf Lover October 21, 2005, 12:36:06 AM
Icerotti made a good point.  A crated dog is pretty worthless for protection if you are being robbed.  I like the idea that if anybody is stupid enough to try and break into my house at night, not only will they have a .357 Magnum waiting for them, they will have the fury of a Newf disturbed from it's sleep to deal with.  Helps me sleep at night!
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: brandon October 21, 2005, 12:43:08 AM
That reminds me.. them black dogs are hard to see at night when you have to go pee.  You don't fall down and go boom, if the dog is in the crate.  Or maybe I need a pair of those lighted slippers.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Icerotti October 21, 2005, 12:47:43 AM
That reminds me.. them black dogs are hard to see at night when you have to go pee.  You don't fall down and go boom, if the dog is in the crate.  Or maybe I need a pair of those lighted slippers.


Good point...lol.. I had to buy a night light for the hallway so I could see Puck in the night. He loves to lay upside down in the hallway. He kept kicking the light out of the socket= so I gave up on the light So I figure if he doesn't hear the robber --There is a 50/50 chance of the robber tripping over the dog and jammimng some part of his body ;D
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Newf Lover October 21, 2005, 12:56:52 AM

LOL -- see, I'd jump in front of the dogs to get to the burglar first.  I'm police firearms certified, and I sleep with a loaded Glock .40 -- police edition.  My dogs would quickly be shoved in the bedroom while I chased the guy down the steps who would probably be peeing himself.  We've had someone try to break into our house before, and I was the first to greet :)

Nice!  My .357 Magnum - Highway Patrolman Edition sits in my night stand ready to go.  Anything that can punch through 3 LA phone books will do some serious damage to any dummy that thinks they're going to rob me.  Plus, it won't jam up like an automatic.  In reality, I think Drake will have chased any burglar off before I could get the gun out. 

Brandon, just listen for the snorring and you can avoid tripping over your dog, at least sometimes....  :-\
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Luvmydanes October 21, 2005, 12:57:03 AM
Newf, I used to feel the same way about crates.  I thought they were mean and confining.  My last dog was not crated.  But he should have been.  He had Separation Anxiety.  He did a lot of damage over the years.

Jack came to us crate trained.  The foster home strongly suggested we use the crate.  I was sure he would be happier not in the crate at night.  I don't think he slept at all that first night.  I know we didn't.  He kept walking around the room, laying down, getting up, laying down, getting up, laying down.  When a Great Dane gets up and down and up and down it feels like a pile driver is being operated in your room.  The next night we crated him and not a sound out of him.  I have a baby monitor so I can hear what he's doing.

The reason we crate him when we are at work is because he isn't trustworthy in the house yet.  We gave him a trial run this summer and he pulled up some carpet.  I can not leave him in my back yard during the day.  My back yard backs up to an alley.  Easy access to anyone.  In this city I can gaurantee you he will be stolen and used as bait for dog fights.  Additionally, my back yard gets the full sun from 10 AM till the sun sets.  There is no shade.  In his air conditioned house he is comfy cozy.

The rule in my house is:  If Jack is in his crate he is not to be bothered.  He goes in there when he wants to sleep undisturbed or wants to get away from the noise of the kids.

Hope this helps.

Tina


Tina - Jack has so big, and very handsome! Do you have any more new pics of him?

Kandi
 
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: rutylr October 21, 2005, 12:57:20 AM
I could not begin to think of what the house would look like if I left all 8 dog loose in the house while I was gone :o
Or I would never get any sleep ,I'd be yelling at everyone to go to sleep and stop playing.
They all know which crate is their and that is where they are fed.They don't look at it as a forum of punishment.It is theirs and no other dog is allowed in it.
Who ever came up with the first crate was a very smart person.
Donna
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: lins_saving_grace October 21, 2005, 01:00:17 AM
Puck has never been crated since he came to us. There has been no need to. Plus I like having him on guard duty at night inside the house. My husband works a variation of days and nights--it is one reason why we have a rotti for protection( and he is a good snuggler)

Farley..omg... if Farley was left uncrated during the day while we were out--I would be afraid of what I might come home to..lol  He gets in enough trouble when I am here with him. ::) Oddly enough he does not have to be crated at night--he sleeps in our room and is great. Doesn't chew anything, pee, etc. I would like to get to the point when he gets older of not having to crate him at all. He is still a puppy too though. He does get crated when no one can be with him in the house. That may be a few hours somedays. It is known (and I am not saying all Vs are like this) that when V's are bored they do/can become very destructive------hence the 1 hour plus excersice needed a day for them :o 
I am looking foward to the day were we do not have to crate Farley at all ;D

Overall his time is very limited in the crate. I m at home most of the time :D
I bet Farley would ride in his Barbie minivan all day if you didn't put him in his bed while you were gone.  you never know what kind of girls him and Puck would bring home.  :)
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: GR8DAME October 21, 2005, 01:02:35 AM
My 14 month old dobie broke out of a crate to chase  (a) burgler(s) out of the house when no one was home. They knocked over chairs and threw tables at him The police assumed. Besides the disarray in the house the only reason we knew there had been an intrusion was because of a broken window and pried open back door. Nothing was taken.
That said, I generally only crate my dogs until 18 months to 2 yrs, by then the worst of the destructive behavior is over and I can come home to a relatively normal (LOL) house and a healthy dog.Stella
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Icerotti October 21, 2005, 01:03:28 AM
I bet Farley would ride in his Barbie minivan all day if you didn't put him in his bed while you were gone.  you never know what kind of girls him and Puck would bring home.  :)

I would probably get a call from Marineland everyday" lady can ya come get your dog---yeah he brought the barbie jeep----If I catch him one more time at the dolphine tank--I"
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: lins_saving_grace October 21, 2005, 01:03:33 AM
I love your new couch, Jack!  Looks cozy and soft!
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Newf Lover October 21, 2005, 01:05:54 AM
I could not begin to think of what the house would look like if I left all 8 dog loose in the house while I was gone :o
Or I would never get any sleep ,I'd be yelling at everyone to go to sleep and stop playing.
They all know which crate is their and that is where they are fed.They don't look at it as a forum of punishment.It is theirs and no other dog is allowed in it.
Who ever came up with the first crate was a very smart person.
Donna

Is the garage or back yard completely out of the question?  That is, if you have one?  Just wondering, those are legitimate options, a fenced off dog room would work too.   8 dogs is an unusual case and I can see how you have a special situation.  THAT'S A LOT OF DOGS!  1 dog is enough work in itself!
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: rutylr October 21, 2005, 01:12:16 AM
I would never keep a dog out side when I was not home to watch them.
There are to many things that could happen.What if they dug out and got hit by a car?
What is a dog fight started?
What if someone threw something in the back yard and they ate it and got sick?
All of mine are house dogs.In their crates I know they are in the same place I left them and are safe.My house is also not tore up.
Donna
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Kermit October 21, 2005, 01:14:06 AM
Am I the only lucky one who has a "dog room"? It's got brick floor and walls yet it is in the regular part of our house as opposed to garage or basement. It is completely dog proof (I think so anyway!). That's where my dogs are when I'm not home, so they don't get into any trouble. Zoot was crate trained as a pup, which has come in handy when I stayed with my dad for a while. Nigel completely rejected crate training as a young pup and soiled himself every time I closed him in. Now he is at the point though where he will wander into an open crate to take a nap. With Mokey I don't have a small enough crate for her, so in the dog room she has a little "puppy pen" so she can be safe from the others, and I put a wee-wee pad in there in case she has to pee. I don't want her peeing in a crate EVER so until she can hold her bladder better, the pen is working for us really well.
All the dogs sleep in my room in or beside the bed. Yes, I get woken up in the middle of the night sometimes by a dog who decides they need to go out for a pee. So I take them out... thank goodness too, because one night at 2 am during a Mokey-potty-break I busted a guy trying to steal my car.  :o
Anyhow, I like crates in the right situation, but I definitely think they are abused by some people. It sure comes in handy to at least have the dogs accustomed to being in one, should an emergency come up.
(my 2 cents)
 :)
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Anky October 21, 2005, 01:19:27 AM
I have to agree no way in HELLooooooooo would I leave my dogs outside when we weren't home.  Forget all the dog thefts that have been happening even in our little community of BPO, it's dangerous, you can't control the yard.

However, none of my dogs are crated anymore.  When we're not home at the city house, they're all in the kitchen (Which is like 3/4 of the house) with access to the basement.  The only room they're not allowed in is the living room, which they're allowed in when we're home. They're kept behind a 3 ft metal baby gate.  At the Boonie house when no one's home Sanity's in my room, held in place by a baby gate that if he sneezed he'd knock over. 

Araby was in a crate when she was a puppy.  Which she promptly ate through.  And then ate through the house.  We got her another one, and she was in there for about a year before we trusted her out of it.  Hobo was never in a crate, he'd go into convulsions.  We tried the crate for Sanity at night.  Didn't work at ALL.  But I did use it when I'd go to work, until he outgrew it.   

Ang
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Newf Lover October 21, 2005, 01:47:51 AM
These have all been great responses and everybody gave different reasons for crating or not crating.  Thanks for sharing and educating me.  I feel very lucky for my situation, I don't really have to worry about people stealing Drake or Poisoning(?) him because we live on a private road with really nosey, elderly neighbors and padlock our gates.  Drake doesn't dig so he won't get out, the only poison we use is pet friendly Sluggo, which is in protected vegetable boxes he can't get at, so he can wander the garden without us worrying that he will eat something that will kill him.  He's so picky anyway, he doesn't eat anything weird, not even toadstools.  He can sleep in the cool garage or sun himself on the deck, so the weather won't kill him.  There's a Lixit on the faucet so he can get water all day long whenever he wants it.  At night, he's asleep by 7 PM so we don't have to chill him out or crate him.  But that's a 3 year old Newf for you, not all dogs are that Mellow.  I totally understand other people's situations and there is no one correct way to take care of your dog when you are not at home. 

My only concern about Crating, and I think most of you feel this way too, is that some dogs are Crated way too much, for way too long.  That's just cruel, regardless of the breed or your personal situation and there's no justifying it.  The way I see it, they might as well be in the pound.  If you don't have time for a dog, why own one?  Get a cat, they're less work and don't really miss you as much.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Good Hope October 21, 2005, 01:50:50 AM
I have read several posts about people having issues with their dogs being in crates all day, snapping, barking, etc. etc. and I'm curious about the logic behind it all.  I can't imagine crating being something thats enjoyable for a dog.  We crated Drake when he was a puppy and it just seemed so mean.  Once he was housebroken, we stopped that practice.  I really haven't done a lot of research on this topic, but what is the logic behind crate training?  I can see if you live in an apartment or small house with no yard and you don't want your dog destroying your furniture and making a mess or if you show dogs and you want them to be presentable, but are those the only reasons?  I would feel horrible doing that to Drake, although he spends most of the day sleeping in the garage, it is nice to know he can get up and stretch his legs and drink water if he needs to.  We had friends who crated their Weimriener and when they visited us, they always had to leave early because they had to let her out of her cage.  It totally controlled their social life and activities.  They had a big back yard and plenty of space, but they still crated her.  She barked all of the time when she was in the cage and it just seemed to be mean.  She would go crazy every time they let her out.  PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE UNDERSTAND, I'm not trying to be judgemental or condescending, that really isn't my intent.  I just don't understand why some folks do this, so that's why I'm questioning the practice.  It just seems most animals hate being in cages for extended periods of time.  Can you guys enlighten me on why you do this rather than letting your dog have free roam?  I am open to all points of views, so fill me in!  ???

Our dog, Sapphire, likes to go into her crate.  It is "her" space, where she can rest undisturbed.  (There are only a few times that we ever pull her out of the crate. When the realator came to take pictures yesterday was one; the crate had to go in the garage.  Otherwise, she is always left alone.)  Crating a dog that has been crate-trained is not cruel, unless they aren't allowed to get out for exercise and "bathroom breaks."  One other note: a crate should be roomy enough for the dog to stand, sit, turn around, and lay down somewhat comfortably, but it is true that they cannot sprawl out unless you have bought it several sizes large (impossible with dogs that require the largest size anyway).  However, this is why, as a rule of thumb, dogs shouldn't be crated for more than four hours straight during the day, and puppies cannot always hold it that long.

Regarding their use: There are lots of reasons to use crates.  A dog that has been crate-trained will like going into its crate.  It is a safe place for the animal to retreat into.  It makes travelling, especially on airlines where a crate is required, much less stressful.  It is the same with rest after surgery or injury; they aren't frantic to get out, so they can actually rest.  It is also invaluable in potty-training and preventing destructive behavior, such as chewing, as you noted.  It is basically useful to have around, but I agree that keeping a dog in one all the time is a bad use of crates.  Even if you keep a puppy in a crate most of the time for housebreaking and training purposes, they still need frequent "potty breaks" and play times outside.

BTW, mother wants to put the crate away when Sapphire is through the chewing stage and is trustworthy in the house.  However, Sapphire really likes the crate, and mother said she might change her mind and leave it out so Sapphire can use it.  ;)  The only thing with Sapphire is that she is really hyper if she has been crated all evening (4hrs.).  She is fine at other times, but evening is her big playtime.

I hope this helps to explain about crates.

Sofia
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: newflvr October 21, 2005, 02:02:26 AM
Cowboy has invented his own "crate" in the back of my station wagon.  He climbs in to every morning around 11:00am to have his nap....and he's up and away from Chester who doesn't seem to need as much sleep.  I think Cowboy was raised in a crate before I got him and he is definately happy and comfortable in the back of the car.  My concern with him in an actual crate though is with his seizures.  I just don't think I could pad it well enough to keep him from getting hurt and I have three different pads for the station wagon to cushion it for him.

Everybody has great points about crating/not crating but I think the bottom line is that it's a function of whether you are home or not to watch and protect our favorite little trouble makers and the personality of each individual pup.  Cowboy wouldn't do anything bad (except seize ;)) if he was paid.  Chester is getting more and more reliable.  If he was eating the floor, I'd crate him, for sure, if I wasn't around!!!
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: greek4 October 21, 2005, 02:03:28 AM
I confine to crates so they don't destroy the place, my stuff, each other, or themselves.  I'm lucky my guys like their crates, so they just go into them when I leave in the mornings.  Once I get into my house, they will be in a 10x6 pen in the basement most days unless they don't behave or one isn't feeling well.  Rocco sleeps with me but Maia spends the first half of the night in her crate because that is where she goes when she gets sleepy.

I loved crate training my guys, it really sped up the potty training and it makes it easier to travel with less stress.  As long as I take the crate they are at ease.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: newflvr October 21, 2005, 02:24:59 AM
Cowboy and Chester in the "travel crate" (the back of my station wagon).  Cowboy is having a big drink of water after a hike.....

They are sort of crate trained :D
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: lins_saving_grace October 21, 2005, 02:28:10 AM
Cowboy and Chester need their own car. :)  they are big fluffy pups! :)
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: brandon October 21, 2005, 02:51:50 AM
Newflvr,
That is just about the coolest thing I have seen all day!
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: newflvr October 21, 2005, 03:02:07 AM
Thanks!  They love their "crate"...especially if it's moving! ;)
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Nina October 21, 2005, 03:08:02 AM
That is one cool crate!


I crate my 2 when we are not home, just because they will destroy the house, and they have. At night Harley sleeps on the floor or on the bed. Dilbert sleeps in his crate in the bedroom, not because he has to but he likes to, he will sleep in it with the door open.  When we are home, they aare never in there crates unless they go in by them selves to take a nap.


Nina
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Heighway October 21, 2005, 03:56:28 AM
Thanks every one for reminding me why I crate.  I've always had dogs, never crated before this one.  I had heard so much about the pros, I wanted to try it.  Understand that Webster is never in there more than 2-3 hours and never in there if we are home.  He goes in for a nap by himself if the door is left open.  He just doesn't seem to want to sleep so much at night.  I am sure that will get better as he gets older.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Gypsy Jazmine October 21, 2005, 04:23:03 AM
Samson was crated at night until he was 9 months old I think...He never had a problem with his crate & rather seemed to enjoy it...I was glad when he was able to be out of it full time because I always thought if anyone broke in there'd be nothing he could do for us...I felt safer when he was out of the crate but he didn't feel safe so I moved to the family room & slept with him for many many months...I have just recently started sleeping back in my bedroom & he turned 1 in July...Pippin never had to be crated as we only had one accident ever in the house & the two rooms the dogs have are pretty much a big crate because they are puppy proofed...As far as crating while people are at work etc. I see no problem with it so long as the time the dog spends out of the crate is full of activity & excersize & being with their people...I wouldn't be comfortable with leaving my dogs in the yard when I am gone either...I don't even leave them out when I am in the shower...I feel that too many things could happen. :-\
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Blair October 21, 2005, 04:27:10 AM
Now I didnt read any post regarding this LOL just writing my 2 cents  :-[ All my boys were crated trained as puppies. Zeus and Grey have free run of the house at night but not when we are gone, they are kenneled. Now working at a Dog groomers, you can tell the dogs that are crated and the ones that arent. It is so much better having a dog crate trained coming to by groomed, cause they are good and just lay down and sleep and wait their turns. Compared to the ones who have never been in a crate, they will pace, bark, and go crazy being in a crate. I dont think its cruel at all crate training, but only when its done right. Now I am sure this was said over and over again, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents LOL
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Newf Lover October 21, 2005, 05:24:31 AM
I guess I just don't have the fear that many of you have of allowing a dog to have free reign of the garage and/or back yard while being gone during the day.  I really don't know what could happen to Drake to be honest.  He doesn't chew on anything, nobody can get to him and all he really does is sleep and maybe get up to go drink some water.  I guess I'm overly optimistic and lucky to have a low maintenence dog.  If I had room for a dog run I guess I would put him in that, but there is no way he would  like being kept in a crate, even though we used one to potty train him.  The other thing is that we can be gone overnight and not worry about him having an accident in the house or running out of water.  We haven't done that very often, but it's good to know we can in case we need to.  There something to be said though about pulling into the driveway of your house, hitting the garage door opener and having a big fuzzy Newf come running out to greet you.  ;D
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: HerbaMonster October 21, 2005, 10:04:51 AM
Hi! 

I felt the same way you did with using crates until it was my last resort for Herbie.  He has his own room with all kinds of toys, a bed, snacks, and water.  He still hated it and would scratch the door and floor until his paws were raw and his nails gone!!  We tried everything including pills but he kept hurting himself.  We decided to try the crate training one day and it was heaven sent!!  He didn't hurt himself and he was actually OK with it - granted he still cries when we have him in there in the beginning but the he's ok with it later.  His nails are all grown back and I'm not stressing about him being hurt in the room.  We're only doing this until he gets older and use to being alone in the house.  Oh, I did let Herbie alone in our house one time and he got into everything!!!  That is more dangerous for him so I think the crate is a good thing for now until he's trained. 

Hope this info helps.  Patricia
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: patrick October 21, 2005, 10:01:24 PM
Crates are a good tool if used correctly as a den or safe place for the dog but I also think the rule that they shouldn't spend more time in the crate then out should be applied.  The puppy I just got back - I spent 2 months convincing the owner to return the puppy - she was a wonderful pet owner in some respects but the puppy was spending up to 22 hours a day in the crate.  There were no behavior issues - the puppy never chewed anything inappropriatel y, was 100% housebroke, never got into the trash, had a securely fenced yard.   Her 'bad' behavior was that she whined while in the crate.  And this person repeatedly told me -you know she doesn't whine when she is out of the crate.  UH DUH

Her reasons for crating were during the day while she was at work- OK no problem  But then you added at night when sleeping - OK still not a problem.  But then the puppy was also crated whenever the owner cooked or ate herself, Twice - 3 times a day, whenever she was cleaning, whenever she did laundry, whenever she vacuumed swept or mopped the floor, whenever she was mixing up the dog food bowls, whenever the dogs ate, whenever she went to the store, whenever she had company over, whenever the owner was reading a book, whenever she did yard work or gardening, whenever she was on the computer and so on.  That pretty much covers close to 24 hours a day.  Reasons - well she walks around (heaven forbid you should have any animal that moves!!), she follows me, she wants to be petted, she begs for food when I am eating, she stands right next to me when I'm fixing the dog food bowls (oh sin of all sins!) she wants to play with the mop/vacuum/broom, she disturbs me when I am trying to read. 

When was the puppy out of the crate?  Ten minutes in the am to potty then back to the crate to eat then 10-15 minutes again to potty.  Back in the crate for 8-9 hours.  Out of the crate for 1/2 hour run then back in the crate for a couple of hours.  Out of the crate for a few minutes then back in for dinner (both human and dog)   Out of the crate for maybe another hour then back in for the night.   This actually could be considered abuse  no matter how well intentioned.

: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: GR8DAME October 21, 2005, 10:16:32 PM
Crates are great as a training tool, not as a substitute for training. I have three dogs in my house. They all have their down places in the kitchen for when I am cooking or eating, they are not allowed to approach the table until the last plate has been cleared. They know their places, and although Strider's place for right now is his crate, he goes in it independently and the door remains open. In a year or so, when the crate goes back in storage, I will move his crate pad out to another spot and that will be his down place. As for feeding time all three go to their elevated feeders and sit and wait for dinner once I have collected all the bowls. If there were not some form of training in the daily aspects of their lives, I could not cope with three dogs the size of mine, and I refuse to have three crates in use at the same time. It sounds like your puppy's owner reguarded the pup as an inconvience to normal life. Perhaps that is the difference. My dogs are an asset to my normal life. JMO.
Stella
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Gypsy Jazmine October 22, 2005, 12:01:17 AM
Crates are a good tool if used correctly as a den or safe place for the dog but I also think the rule that they shouldn't spend more time in the crate then out should be applied.  The puppy I just got back - I spent 2 months convincing the owner to return the puppy - she was a wonderful pet owner in some respects but the puppy was spending up to 22 hours a day in the crate.  There were no behavior issues - the puppy never chewed anything inappropriatel y, was 100% housebroke, never got into the trash, had a securely fenced yard.   Her 'bad' behavior was that she whined while in the crate.  And this person repeatedly told me -you know she doesn't whine when she is out of the crate.  UH DUH

Her reasons for crating were during the day while she was at work- OK no problem  But then you added at night when sleeping - OK still not a problem.  But then the puppy was also crated whenever the owner cooked or ate herself, Twice - 3 times a day, whenever she was cleaning, whenever she did laundry, whenever she vacuumed swept or mopped the floor, whenever she was mixing up the dog food bowls, whenever the dogs ate, whenever she went to the store, whenever she had company over, whenever the owner was reading a book, whenever she did yard work or gardening, whenever she was on the computer and so on.  That pretty much covers close to 24 hours a day.  Reasons - well she walks around (heaven forbid you should have any animal that moves!!), she follows me, she wants to be petted, she begs for food when I am eating, she stands right next to me when I'm fixing the dog food bowls (oh sin of all sins!) she wants to play with the mop/vacuum/broom, she disturbs me when I am trying to read. 

When was the puppy out of the crate?  Ten minutes in the am to potty then back to the crate to eat then 10-15 minutes again to potty.  Back in the crate for 8-9 hours.  Out of the crate for 1/2 hour run then back in the crate for a couple of hours.  Out of the crate for a few minutes then back in for dinner (both human and dog)   Out of the crate for maybe another hour then back in for the night.   This actually could be considered abuse  no matter how well intentioned.


That just breaks my heart!! :'(...I am so very glad you got the puppy back!!
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: JennLM October 23, 2005, 12:12:08 PM
Icerotti made a good point.  A crated dog is pretty worthless for protection if you are being robbed.  I like the idea that if anybody is stupid enough to try and break into my house at night, not only will they have a .357 Magnum waiting for them, they will have the fury of a Newf disturbed from it's sleep to deal with.  Helps me sleep at night!

I had a home invasion, they walked by 3 of our wolfdogs and 4 big ol Newfs.. Only one came forward to save my life so don't count on it.

Of course if you think and act liek crating htem is horrible they will ract as such. If you always make it a spoitive thing and use a crate right it will be their den. Dogs are denning animals and decended fromwolves no matter the breed. If a dog can be 100% trust with no accidents or is non-destrcutive then sure let them go uncrated.. 

I have to get past people with the thinking of crates are cruel every day when I teach my obedience classes.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Heighway October 23, 2005, 03:47:40 PM
Tonite, we tried keeping Webster awake while we watched the baseball game.  He fell asleep on a mat by our bed.  When the game was over we closed the bedroom door and turned out the lights, thinking we would just let him sleep there. Webster immediately woke up and scratched on the door.  I got up, thinking he would want to go out, instead, when I opened the door, he went straight across the hall and got in his crate and laid down. It made me feel good, like having the crate was the right thing after all.  It is now 4 am, and he is up for a potty break and a few ice cubes.  He will be up about 10 minutes then back to the crate.  I think he likes having a place to call his own.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Newf Lover October 24, 2005, 12:57:02 AM
That's cool that so many of you have great experiences and results with your dogs being in crates and thank you for sharing your stories with me.  I am glad Drake doesn't need one, for several reasons.  One being that we don't have to keep an XXL Crate inside the house somewhere.  Dog beds are enough for him and aren't as distracting as a big crate sitting in the middle of the room, a nice looking dog bed is much more cohesive with the decor.  We are blessed with a mellow dog that won't destroy the house if we leave him alone, we are thankful of that and that's one of the reasons why we got a Newf.  Another reason is I can honestly say that we are never going put Drake on an airplane, unless the desparate airlines start allowing dogs in with the passengers.  If I had to, I would rather pay the full price of a seat to allow my dog to sit with me rather than be put in the unpressurized hull in a crate.  I have heard nightmares about air travel and dogs, how the dogs are covered with vomit and poop when they arrive, how it's freezing down in the hull where they are kept.  No THANKS!  So, our XXL dog crate sits alone in the garage. full of stuffed toys and other doggie play toys.  We might need it again for Drake one day, but I hope not. 
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: felicity October 27, 2005, 08:54:18 AM
i think crating is an American thing because i don't know anyone who does it, iv'e never done it myself, i have never needed to.

anassa is well trained and can be left either outside or inside by herself, at night she sleeps on a huge pillow at the end of the bed and wakes us up if she needs to do her business. Then in the morning when my husband leaves for work she will hop on the end of the bed and sleep there.

i really don't understand it either and have never had any problems for not crating my dogs but each to their own.

maybe not crating is an Aussie thing lol


felicity
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: brandon October 27, 2005, 10:29:47 AM
i think crating is an American thing because i don't know anyone who does it, iv'e never done it myself, i have never needed to.

anassa is well trained and can be left either outside or inside by herself, at night she sleeps on a huge pillow at the end of the bed and wakes us up if she needs to do her business. Then in the morning when my husband leaves for work she will hop on the end of the bed and sleep there.

i really don't understand it either and have never had any problems for not crating my dogs but each to their own.

maybe not crating is an Aussie thing lol


felicity

What do you do in Australia if you have to leave a puppy inside while you're gone?
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: felicity November 09, 2005, 08:41:27 PM
i think crating is an American thing because i don't know anyone who does it, iv'e never done it myself, i have never needed to.

anassa is well trained and can be left either outside or inside by herself, at night she sleeps on a huge pillow at the end of the bed and wakes us up if she needs to do her business. Then in the morning when my husband leaves for work she will hop on the end of the bed and sleep there.

i really don't understand it either and have never had any problems for not crating my dogs but each to their own.

maybe not crating is an Aussie thing lol


felicity

What do you do in Australia if you have to leave a puppy inside while you're gone?



i can't speak for everyone but iv'e always left my pups in the laundry room, it's big and there's plenty of room for play, i usually leave toys and some treats too so the pup can keep it's seld occupied, most of the time i'll take my pup with me though, i just can't stand the thought of leaving a pup alone  ;D

most people i know just leave their pup in a room of some sort, either the laundry or a spare room :)

as i said, each to their own, i'm not knocking anyone who uses crates, just personally iv'e never needed to.

thanks!

felicity
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: 2dobies November 09, 2005, 11:37:17 PM
I've never even owned a crate.  My dobes share the house with three small dogs, and everyone gets along just fine.  I work, but my wife hasn't worked for about a year now, so there's someone home with them for most of the time,  If we go somewhere, we usually take one or two of the dogs with us, or leave them home alone if we're just gone a few hours.  They all have very good house manners, do their business outside before we leave, and after we get back home.  I sometimes get up in the middle of the night to see if anyone needs to go out, and if they do, they do. We don't really have the room for a bunch of big crates, anyway.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: patrick November 10, 2005, 12:27:48 AM
Same here - I don't use crates at home  The only place I use them is at the shows.  We have a 'puppy' room where young dogs are confined when left at home alone.  They are always in with another dog and lots of toys and chewies.  Room is puppy proofed and ceramic tile floor so its an easy clean up. 
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Senghe November 10, 2005, 10:25:50 AM
i think crating is an American thing because i don't know anyone who does it,

felicity

In England it's quite common to use crates. There are lots of good reasons, but like somebody said it's no substitute for training.

My Tibetan Mastiff puppy actually chose to sleep in his crate rather than upstairs in the bedroom with me when he was 14 weeks old. From that day on he was also clean overnight. I put him in there when I go out as I can't trust him not to do himself or the house any damage. As I know somebody who's TM ate his way through a thick wooden front door and sat in the garden waiting for his owner to come home, I'm not risking it till he's older and hopefully mor sensible.

Also when I had two shar-pei (both rescues), I could not leave them alone together for fear of them fighting and they would have fought to the death. I used to shut them in separate rooms but Phoebe would eat the woodwork as she hated being alone. I bought a crate and the biggest problem I had was they BOTH wanted to be in there, so I rotated them when I went out. I still have the oldest pei and she sleeps in her crate now as she's slightly incontinent and it saves my furniture. She loves it and if I leave the door of her small crate open, I find the TM puppy scrunched up in there with his head sticking out!

I'd never crated any dog before about 7 years ago and now I would crate train all my dogs as it gives me the option to use it if needed.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: BabsT November 10, 2005, 10:40:09 AM
I have two ovcharkas which are same family as your breed...by 5 months both my dogs had full run of the house.  The crates are still up as the dogs eat in there and up until a few weeks ago my female pup chose to sleep in there on her own...Now they both sleep on the floor where ever they choose and both are 100% trusted with full run of the house for a whole entire day if need be...My crates will always be up because they are a great tool and come in handy

My female CO is 23wks
My male CAO is 1yr
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: Senghe November 11, 2005, 05:38:59 PM
^ Your Ovcharka are beautiful! I have a keen interest in rare breeds so they really appeal to me. We don't have any in the UK and even the TM's have only been here 20 years.

Tibetan Mastiffs are reknowned for being unbelievably destructive when the mood takes them. Flynn's hobby at the moment is extracting the gripper rods from round the living room carpet when I'm not looking so you can imagine what he'd get up to left to his own devices!
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: LuvmyMal November 11, 2005, 07:53:37 PM
We started crating for potty training and safety purposes.  Then came Nala and the same thing. We had started trusting Tonka to be out until she decided to eat part of the end table. Both of my girls are now crated while we are at work, but their crates are directly beside each other and they can see each other. Tonka is in a playpen with a crate inside for when she wants to sleep soon Nala will be in one or we will keep them in the kitchen during the day so they can exercise. Also my sister comes over during the day and lets them out for 3-4 hrs or I come home for lunch. Now my co-worker has 2 husky mixes that are in crates most of the day in the garage and are let out a couple of times a day, which I don't agree with. I absolutely hate having my girls in there but it is for their own safety at this time.
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: hugo~monster November 12, 2005, 12:47:59 PM
well when there was only one poodle in the house we did not crate at all.  years later we got 2 more toy poodles and decided that the 2 youngest poodles would be safer in a kennel vs running around the house.  i had bottle fed the 2 youngest from birth because their mother died so they were raised in a "hot box" for warmth during their bottle feeding days.  they grew up knowing that a crate was their "bedroom".  as the oldest poodle got older (at this point she was loose 24/7 and slept with us), she began getting up during the night and peeing in the floor.  she would also pee in the house while we were at work.  took her to the vet, everything was ok.  but we decided that the best thing for our floors were to kennel her.  when we got hugo we decided to kennel him also.  it works great.  they do not mind going in the kennel at all.  keeps them from wrecking my house, just in case. i feel like this works for us because of all the thing they COULD get into.  on occasion we have not put them up, and the house was fine when we returned, but why take a chance.  they have their bedding and toys in the crate and it is larger than they would ever need.  i can leave for work and know they are safe. 
: Re: Why confine your dog to a Crate?
: brigid67 November 12, 2005, 06:55:51 PM
I crate Willow - it works great.  She is pretty good in the house.  If everything stays picked up then there is not to much destruction.  But I have teenagers so nothing is ever picked up.  The biggest reason i crate Willow is because of the Poms.  My female pom and Willow tend to have some issues.  So we Crate Willow just to prevent any injuries