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Mastiffs => Old English Mastiff Discussions => : greek4 May 26, 2005, 12:21:25 PM
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What do you guys know about American Mastiffs? I have Flying W farms in my OEM pedigree. I joined some yahoo boards and many people on there are very negative about Flying W. It is said (I don't agree) that the owner is breeding mutts. I understand that to create a new breed you must breed two different breeds together. I am kinda skeptical of doodles so I don't really know where to stand on American Mastiffs. :-\
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I dont know very much about american mastiffs either, and if, when and how to "create" new breeds is a very touchy subject. Many of our todays pure breeds, are actually a mix of two or more breeds from the beginning, just many many years ago, and today totally accepted as pure breed bogs. Having said that, I think all the breeding and "creating" of new breeds have gone a little overboard, today it seems like everything you breed with a poodle is okay, it gets a name and then people breed the two as if it actually were a breed, I am not so sure I agree with that. In general (and I may get shot here now lol) I think we have so many breeds today, so there should be something for everyone, no matter what size or what you want to do with your dog, there is a breed that should work for you, and to me it makes more sense to try and breed to "better" the breeds we already have, rather than all the time try to "create" new ones. Mostly the breeds we have today, were mixed up and "created" to get a dog that were extra ordinair for a certain job. They wanted them as protectors, hunters, guardians or herding. So if there wasnt a breed that totally fitted what they wanted to use the dog for, they tried to combine two or sometimes more breeds to get a dog that were perfect for the job, so it was breeding with purpose. Today well we have pretty much covered everything they need to do and how to look, we have the pumis and pulis with the cork screws, the chinese crested with no coat at all, and everything inbetween. And that sometimes makes me wonder, why we need more breeds.
"greek4" I know there is a lot of different opinions about the Flying W, and all I can say, no matter what the pedigree, as long as you have the dog YOU want, and he works well in your family, that is all that matters, if you want to conformation show, the judges wont know the pegidgree anyway and what other people think, well take it with a grain of salt. It doesnt matter what lines you have in your dog, there will always be people who have something negative to say about that perticular line. Have you posted any pics on here, of your OEM??? It would be real nice to see a pic (or ten lol...) of him.
Marit
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Does Flying W farms breed OEMs also? All i've heard about are their American Mastiffs. Maybe we're on the same mastiff yahoo list. I just don't see the point of an American Mastiff. I know they supposedly live longer and drool less... Take a look at this website about the Maso breed. They say the same things about the Maso..live longer and less drool. The website has lots of really great pictures of OEMs and Masos
http://www.massivedogz.com/
We went and visited them early on in my mastiff hunt. They breed both Masos and OEMs They were very nice and the dogs were really really sweet. But i'm still just a little learly of paying for a mixed breed. I would rather rescue, which I did. Granted the Maso's were cheaper then an OEM but you just never know what kind of dog you'll have.
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Here you go. Aren't they the cutest ;)
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Flying w used to breed both kinds, but stopped breeding OEM to focus on American Mastiffs.
If I can figure out how to upload Maia's pedigree I will share it.
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They are soooo cute, I simply love the faces of our mastiffs, well hmmmm come to think about it, I love all the faces of all the dogs on this site, so if hubby let me, I would probably end up with a doggy farm, we would have to move out to the garage and the dogs would take over the house lol.... How old are your guys??
Here is a pic of my baby, Galahad and his fav toy, the cow, well it was for about three days, then it was a "gonner" all the toys here last for only a week or so, except the "boring" toys, them we have had for years lol...
Marit
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Rocco, Newf mix male will be three in August.
Maia, OEM, was 1 on May 12th.
Soft toys or toys with squeakers only last a few days. They are well loved for those few days though. I get toys by the box load from Petedge.com, they are cheap.
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yeah, I love that place, get their catalogs and they have I think the best toy prices around, and when a toy doesnt last more than a few days that is a rather important factor lol.... My dogs does that too, try and dig out the squeeker or noice maker, when thats done the toy is not funny anylonger, I have tried to sew them together where they dug the squeeker out, but nope.... just like kids, want new toys
Marit
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I heard American Mstiff and I had to speak...
I love OEM's and AM's I have owned 2 AM's and have vistited Flying W. For me and my family the AM fits well. OEM's have health issues that I didn't want to deal with. AM's are the same as OEM's and who cares about the drool.... Slingers are good for a laugh.
Behavior wise they are how you raise them.
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What kind of health issues?
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What I was concerned with was Cystrine, Kidney Failure, Blindness,Wobbler's, allergies, ect.
I was concerned with this, I know that there are breeders who have excellent healthy lines but I don't show, breed, or anything else other than have couch potatoes who love to play and lean.
Would I own an OEM? Yes, if the right one came along.
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You had me scared there for a little while. I thought there were health problems I hadn't heard about that you knew about.
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Hey all. I have to speak up too. My baby, Duchess is a Flying W American Mastiff and she is WONDERFUL. And I do not consider her a mutt. She is a pure breed American Mastiff. She may not be recognized by the AKC, but maybe, someday, they will. All in all, Flying W has done a wonderful job developing this breed. They are the best! ;D
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What I was concerned with was Cystrine, Kidney Failure, Blindness,Wobbler's, allergies, ect.
I was concerned with this, I know that there are breeders who have excellent healthy lines but I don't show, breed, or anything else other than have couch potatoes who love to play and lean.
Would I own an OEM? Yes, if the right one came along.
These health issues, are not too uncommon in any giant breed, well some of them are actaully more likely in way smaller breeds than our big guys.
A good responsible breeder, who follows OEM's ethical rules should have both hips and elbows tested on both parents, and then you can go ahead and make sure the blood line is tested however far back you want, and if you are not happy with the results or if there are not a good amount of dogs tested you probably want to choose another line. The health cert. is not given unless they have a cardiac test too, and the eyes and thyroids are something more and more breeders volunteer to do to better the breed.
I honestly dont see a reason for being afraid of the OEM's health more than most of the big or gaint breeds out there, you have to research and make sure you find the right breeder and the right lines but no matter what breed you look into, even the smaller ones, you will find a long list of health issues, things they recomend you to look into on each and every breeder you are interested in.
Marit
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AM owner here, lookin' to chime in.
The advantage of AMs over OEMs is health, less drool, and a more controlled breeding arangement. OEMs are a wonderful breed, but unfortunately not all breeders have employed great caution & foresight in many OEM's family trees.
By contrast, AMs tend to live significantly longer (12+ years), have fewer health complications, it's easier to trace their lineage, they drool far less, and still exhibit all the terrific traits of OEMs (including size -- male AMs seem to average about 220 - 260+).
The drawback, of course, is the limited quantity of AMs (which can result in 'em costing a bundle), the lack of "pedigree" incumbent with a more-established breed (which seems to be important to lots of folks), and because of their newness, you don't have decades of empirical evidence about their tendancies. Also, I think it's far more noble to adopt an animal from a shelter than pay four-figures to a breeder -- which is what you've gotta do with AMs, because of their limited number.
A great dog is a great dog, of course -- and I hope I don't sound like an elitist! OEMs are fantastic creatures, but as an owner, it's nice to know that my puppy (21-weeks -- 85 pounds) has a family lineage with dogs living long, healthy lives.
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Wow! 21 weeks and 85lbs is great! You must post pics of your baby for us to see, Pleeeeease!! Welcome to BPO by the way!
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Thanks for the warm welcome! I'd be happy to post some photos, once I figure out how to do so. I have a huge collection of my AM (Leon)'s photos attached to e-mails, but I haven't taken the time to learn how to upload the images to this site. I'd be happy to e-mail the photos to anyone who'd like 'em, in the meantime, though...
From what I've been told by other AM owners, these dogs seem to average about 100-pounds at six months, about 180 at one year, and continue to pack on weight until about age three. And that's part of the fun in having a mastiff in the family -- not only are they dogs, but they're also science projects! Watching 'em grow is fascinating stuff -- and they grow so quickly, I swear you can hear the bones creek at night!
BTW, I've been weighing Leon every week since he was six-weeks old (when he joined our family) by weighing myself -- and then picking him up, and standing back on the scale. I don't know how much longer I'll be physically able to continue doing that, but if any mastiff puppy owners have questions about their dog's growth rate through 21-weeks, I can help w/ that.
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Rv - if you want to post pics with your post this is how it's done. After you write what you want to say, just click on the Additional Options text under your text box. It will reveal a Browse button which you click on and search your computer for the file you want to attach. I hope this helps! I can't wait to see your pics!
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OK... let's see if this works...
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Cool!
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What a cutie!!! Awesome looking dog!!!
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OH My he is so cute. We weighed Judge for about the first 6 months on our home scale but now we take him to Hubbys work. LOL They have a big scale there for loading the flat bed truck. Works great.
Thanks for sharing to wonderful pics.
Coonie
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We just purchased an Old English Mastiff and did extensive research on them and American Mastiffs. Every breeder and dog trainer that we spoke to said that the American Mastiff is a mutt and the myth that they drool less is a joke. I would keep doing your homework before you spend money on an American Mastiff. They are not registered with the AKC.
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Yes, they are mutts. Anytime you take a breed and mix it with something else, it's a mutt. Doesn't matter what you call it. (Labradoodles, puggles, peke-a-poo, etc). I'm sure they're all great dogs, but their owners shouldn't be offended if someone calls their dog a mutt, because it is.
About American Mastiffs...the y are english mastiffs (and iffy quality ones at that) that were bred to Anatolian Shepherds. Supposedly they will drool less. And have the mastiff personality and less helalth issues. Well...anatoli ans have many of the same health issues as EMs. Many large and giant breeds do. As for the Mastiff personality-please research the personality of Anatolians. They are NOT friendly, family type dogs. And the non drooling thing? Absolutely not true. Life expectancy for an anatolian is 11-13 yrs. For an EM it is up to 10 yrs. Blend those and you may get a pup from either extreme or somewhere in the middle.
Also, EMs and AS will both grow very quickly, if you let them. You MUST feed them correctly or they will grow too fast and have major problems later in life.
As with any breed, do your homework before you buy a puppy. Make sure the breeders have tested their dogs for defects. Hips, elbows, eyes at least. All mastiff puppies are cute. Heck, puppies are cute no matter what they are. But that doesn't mean they won't grow up healthy.
Also...there's a girl near me who bought an AS. Unfortunately, she's one of the many whose pup got the AS personality and the horrible hips from inbreeding and having untested parents. She would be more than happy to answer any questions from anyone who may be interested in these mixed breed dogs.
http://mastiffweb.com/cgi/webdiskusjon/hoved.pl?df=4326&meldID=867-3&hID=867
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So here is what I think. there are certain breeds who are reg. by AKC, and then there are breeds who are not. Granted a lot of the breeds we have today that are accepted as breeds, were not a few years back. But after extensive breeding and reseraching they bacame a breed we could register.
When it comes to the mastiffs, I own both OEM and Bullmastiff and am extremely happy with them. When you buy any breed you need to do a lot of research before you buy, go way back in bloodlines, check on relatives and whats the disposition and health and conformation is. Also that the breeder follows the ethical rules that breed club has set up. And I dont think it is easier or takes less research when you get an American Mastiff. The health with both breeds depends totally on the genetics and the upbringing, feeding and care they get. And usually the drool issue comes with a square large lip, the bigger the lip the more the drool. I have heard that they should drool less, but dont know if that is the fact or just a myth, I dont think my mastiffs drool more than I can deal with.
Bottom line, I think no matter what breed we buy, we need to be responsible buyers do our research in a lot of areas and make sure the disposition is what we want it to be. The mix in American Mastiff I am sure can be wonderful dogs, but can also be a bit "too sharp" You can see a big difference in an OEM and a Bullmastiff, since there is Bulldog in the Bullmastiff they are a little sharper than the OEM, so it does matter what breeds are in the "final" product.
If you have no interest in showing or competing or being active with your dog, it really doesnt matter it can not be registered, but I dont think that makes it less of a challange to find the right breeder with the right healthy and well dispositioned dogs.
Marit
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I agree with the DC guy...AM are mutts and profit...I spoke to the woman at flying W expressing my concern and she actually knew very veyr little on the breed...I also spoke to a woman that owned a AM named odin that pretty much was a 220 lb Anatolain which is a serious serious breed...
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I agree with the DC guy...AM are mutts and profit...I spoke to the woman at flying W expressing my concern and she actually knew very veyr little on the breed...I also spoke to a woman that owned a AM named odin that pretty much was a 220 lb Anatolain which is a serious serious breed...
I gotta pull my "trump card" here -- and that trump card is, I suspect that I know much more about American Mastiffs than non-owners do.
The breed was designed b/c OEMs have so many wonderful traits -- but also have some negative qualities, including excessive drool, certain health problems, and many have shorter lifespans. AMs have the personality of an OEM, the look & size of an OEM, but generally don't drool (unless it's excessively hot or they've just gulped down half the water bowl!), don't have the health problems associated w/ many larger breeds (including OEMs), and live a very long time. In fact, the breed has only been around for about 15-years -- and the first AMs have only started to pass away recently.
You've seen my puppy Leon. Do any of you REALLY think that he looks like an Anatolain? Come on, guys!
Not all aspects of having AMs are positive. Because the breeding of 'em is so controlled, their health/ longevity is exceptional -- but a limited supply drives the cost up considerably. B/c they lack certain "recognition" from the dog show crowd, they lack some of that "prestige" factor. You don't have hundreds of years -- or hundreds of dogs -- to make conclusions from. You aren't likely to run into other AM owners in your hometown.
The BEST thing about AMs, in addition to the other qualities I listed, is the accountability . The breeders are very responsive & very caring about the dogs -- and have even set up an online community to answer questions. In fact, it was a Big Paws person promoting this site on the AM Board that led me to drop on by!
Check it out at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanMastiffs/messages
Ask your questions about the breed. There are tons of AM owners & breeders on there -- and I'll give anyone a golden donkey if you can find folks unhappy with their breed selection.
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I think your baby is BEAUTIFUL No matter if he is a mutt or not. Im sure you did your research and if you wanted to spend extra money Thats your opption. Its great to hear that these American Mastifs have a longer life span. More years to love your baby Who wouldnt want that?? Im new at the pure bread thing but everyone has an oppinion I see and I can see how people could get offended.
Just a question ???? I thought any dog could be registered AKC?? Or does this breed have to be registered as a mixed breed?? Just wondering why not being able to register them is a problem??
Quote from Marits post>>>If you have no interest in showing or competing or being active with your dog, it really doesnt matter it can not be registered, but I dont think that makes it less of a challange to find the right breeder with the right healthy and well dispositioned dogs.
Also, what is the problem with the Anatolain ( serious serious breed...???) ??
Coonie
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If I remember correctly, which I probably don't, Anatolians are one of those livestock guardian dogs. Meant to live on their own. Their very aloof and very dominant.
Ang
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I have to admit that I am terribly ignorant when it comes to American mastiffs, I didn't even know that they existed, but I thought that in order to be considered a new breed doesn't the animal have to breed true to type? I mean Strider is a wonderful dog and I love him to death but he is a mutt. Half Irish wolfhound and half great dane. Do you mean to say that I could call him a Dane Hound, breed him and call the puppies purebred because I bred him on purpose? I am not looking to tick off anyone, I am just asking. I thnk no matter if your dog is papered or not, if he/she makes you happy then he/she is perfect.
Stella
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I have to admit that I am terribly ignorant when it comes to American mastiffs, I didn't even know that they existed, but I thought that in order to be considered a new breed doesn't the animal have to breed true to type? I mean Strider is a wonderful dog and I love him to death but he is a mutt. Half Irish wolfhound and half great dane. Do you mean to say that I could call him a Dane Hound, breed him and call the puppies purebred because I bred him on purpose? I am not looking to tick off anyone, I am just asking. I thnk no matter if your dog is papered or not, if he/she makes you happy then he/she is perfect.
Stella
Stella, you have a very good point. And noooooo when a "new" breed is introduced, it is either coming from another country where it is and has been a breed for quite some time. Or for years and years certain breeders are breeding on the same two maybe three breeds to "make" something that doesnt already excist in an already registered breed. Actually a lot of our today so called pure breed dogs have a "mixed passed" but if you want to breed for a new breed, there has to be very controlled forms, there has to be a strict breed standard and enough dogs that can live up to that standard and even produce litters that live up to it.
But today it seems like if you mix say a poodle with almost anything, you can give it a name, and make people believe that it is a breed. Not saying those dogs are less in any way, but they are for sure not pure breed dogs.
Marit
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On a tangent, sort of off the "designer dog" topic....Did you know that there are very few acknowledged (AKC) breeds that were developed in America? I can only think of four...The American Stafford Bull Terrier (Am Staff) the Cheasapeke Bay Retriever, the American Foxhound and the Pit Bull, and I'm not sure about the pit. Pit parents, help me out here, is it an AKC registered breed? Does anyone know of any more?
By the way, AKC papers mean very little today, outside of the showring. In order to get a litter registered, all you need is the registration numbers of two registered dogs as Dam and Sire. It's up to the breeder to be honest enough to actually use those dogs for the litter. I have AKC papers on all of my dobermans, and no one even checks if they are alive or dead, their numbers are still current as far as the AKC knows. I could breed two gerbils, put the right registration numbers on the paperwork and call them AKC dobermans. There was a local story on a pet store near me selling AKC puppies that had falsified registration papers and were mixed breeds that they were getting $500 to $1000 for.Some of the "AKC registered" dogs that I've seen are a joke. Nothing near the AKC standard, and NO ONE CHECKS.It is truely a buyer beware situation. I guess the moral of the story is to go to a reputible breeder that you have thoroughly checked out if you want what you pay for. (By the way I am expecting a new AKC doberman litter in a couple of weeks, really small, perfect for apartment living, cutest buck teeth...JUST KIDDING!!!!!LOL)
Stella
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Hi Stella,
How 'bout the Boston Terrier? ;D
Marsi
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Marsi,
Per the maligned AKC, yep Bostons are American born and bred.
Thanks! Stella
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Yep, it's a crapshoot. Unfortunately, there are MANY unscrupulous breeders out there, just trying to make a buck. So it falls on the buyer to do his/her homework and find a good one. Unfortunately, so many people aren't sure of what they should even be checking for, and listen to the breeder, who of course says his puppies are great quality, and healthy. I was just talking to a guy that has a Mastiff puppy who has hip dysplasia at 9-10 months old. His breeder told him it was "an excellent quality pup out of champion lines, with good conformation and sound hips and elbows", hich had been "checked". No OFA/OFEL testing, of course. This guy believed a shady breeder, paid his money and got an unhealthy puppy.
It's always a possibility to have problems from litters where the parents HAVE been tested, and the breeders are actually trying to better their breed. Anything can happen. But those problems are drastically reduced when the extra money, time and effort is spent to weed out all but the healthiest of breeding stock.
Again, back to the basis of this thread. I'm sure lots of people have gotten nice pets of the kennel in question. When you have hundreds and hundreds of puppies, you're bound to have lots of customers. Many will be happy. Many will not. Many will be healthy (just like any mutt, or people, for that matter. The majority of us turn out ok, no matter where we came from).
My personal opinion, any "kennel" who always has puppies available is a huge red flag. Any kennel who doesn't test its stock for known genetic problems, and just says "Our dogs are healthy, never had a problem yet", is a huge red flag. Any kennel who breeds mutts and will tell any average Joe who emails that these dogs are registerable (ANY dog can be registered with some of these knock off registries. Means nothing) is a huge red flag. Unfortunately, people see what they want to see, and are often blind to logic when it comes to their pets. The original poster stated she's been to many message boards where people have slammed Flying W. Think of it this way...if you have 30 well educated (on their breed) people who all have the SAME opinion about someone/thing, and several newbies who have bought a puppy from this place and had it turn out ok (and nothing from all the ones who've bought one that has turned out horrible) who would you listen to?
I had a springer spaniel/lab mix once that was the smartest thing I'd ever seen. Amazing dog! Did I go around saying it had no rage syndrome, which springers are succeptible to, and wasn't hyper like labs can be, so therefore it was a better breed? No, I neutered him and enjoyed my awesome little mutt.
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GR8DAME is a poke at a breeder of great danes that I visited when I was looking to get my first dane. He had several breeds availible, but according to him his favorite was his grape dames. Needless to say I went elsewhere.
Stella
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GR8DAME is a poke at a breeder of great danes that I visited when I was looking to get my first dane. He had several breeds availible, but according to him his favorite was his grape dames. Needless to say I went elsewhere.
Stella
hahahahaha, why but why stella did you net get a grape dame lol....... I am sure they are very unusual, you would have been the only one on bpo with one ;D
Marit
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That reminds me of all the "rockweiler" owners in the south!