Author Topic: Bone agression, help please :(  (Read 12400 times)

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2007, 10:40:16 am »
Brownis15~ Thank you so much for explaining all of that. And for offering a consult..I'm sure you'll be hearing from me at some point. ;) Yes, he was doing the being still and eyeing thing first- that's always kinda scary looking. It's very interesting, the stages of that and I hadn't even paid attention. I will read over this more when I get a little more time. It all makes a lot of sense though. If this happened to you, the way I described it in the crate..what would you have done? I was kind of in an odd position because he was in there and I was outside, so I didn't think to do a take down, if he were out of the crate and did that, I probably would have thought to do that. I will practice those excercises. He often flops on his belly for rubs but I've not tried pinning him.

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2007, 10:41:46 am »
Kristina, I just want to say thank you for starting this thread.  We are also running into some of these food protective issues with Sammy, the Pyr that we just adopted.  Since he was nearly starved to death by his previous owners, we were not surprised to find that he's becoming food (and toy) protective as he is getting well & strong enough to speak up.  We feed our dogs seperately, but I was about to ask for training suggestions, so thank you for opening up this discussion.  I'm sure that there are many of us that are learning a lot from it. I'm on my way out to do errands now, so I'll read it all throughly later this evening.  It's great that you are aware and ready to work with Yukon and that he's young and has been well fed & loved.

No problem! I'm glad other people can benefit too and relate to it. Every day is a new lesson!

 :)

Offline Brownis15

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2007, 12:07:02 pm »
Brownis15~ Thank you so much for explaining all of that. And for offering a consult..I'm sure you'll be hearing from me at some point. ;) Yes, he was doing the being still and eyeing thing first- that's always kinda scary looking. It's very interesting, the stages of that and I hadn't even paid attention. I will read over this more when I get a little more time. It all makes a lot of sense though. If this happened to you, the way I described it in the crate..what would you have done? I was kind of in an odd position because he was in there and I was outside, so I didn't think to do a take down, if he were out of the crate and did that, I probably would have thought to do that. I will practice those excercises. He often flops on his belly for rubs but I've not tried pinning him.

If it were me, lol, well DONT do what I would have done, but I would have just taken the bone away and have let him tried to bite me, if he did, he would have been punished like i described. Being a puppy he probably would have hurt me but not extremely and at least the danger would be gone. I then would have started the exercises and gone from there. IMO the bone being in there and leaving him with it for fear i would get bitten would be reinforcing his behavior. He would realize growling = people going away and it would have been worse next time. So I would want him to learn right off the bat, NOT ACCEPTABLE and YOU WILL BE PUNISHED for that. Then once you have the bone you can go grab some other treats etc and start the training on YOUR terms, not his.

I dog sit very often for dogs with this problem as a doggie bootcamp. I do it with dogs with CPA, dog aggression, fear aggression, all kinds of bad behaviors. Since many times the problem has gone past the point where owners can do the conditioning we have described it is too dangerous, the dog wont let them 3 feet near the food. So they come to my house and sometimes i have to get bitten in order for them to realize it does nothing. I am not going away, I am in charge, you do not intimidate me. I usually use something to sheild me, like a mop, or a piece of cardboard box, and i go over, take the item and once i have it I make them sit and then give it back. I do this exercise first for two days and then begin the conditioning treatments where i go over, and by this time they realize the growling and biting does nothing and the food does not go away, so they are usuallu calmer and i take the bowl and then treat them, and give it back, etc like described earlier. It does take time, but it does work and although i have some scars from some dogs, I would rather me than a 3 year old.
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.”

The loves of my life

Atlas - GSD
Merlin - Papillon
SweetPea - Papillon

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2007, 01:05:43 pm »
Yeah, I understand. My first instinct was to take it away but like you said, out of fear I didn't, and I didn't want to be afraid either. How pittiful to be afraid of my nearly 4 month old puppy but he's large and he can get pretty scary sounding/looking. 

I also wanted to add that the weird thing is, he doesn't have any posessiveness of his food bowl at all and he's never shown any towards his toys or other bones. I can pet him or stick my hand in the bowl whatever when he's eating and he doesn't care, just looks up at me, licks his face and goes back to eating, or sometimes ignores me altogether. So, I don't know if the real bone brought out some instinct in him or what or if me entering the crate compounded it. I plan on giving him the bone when I let them out for some house time tonight and seeing how he is. This time I'll make him sit and wait for it like I do with treat time.

Offline Brownis15

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2007, 01:16:36 pm »
A lot of the time it BEGINS with high value treats like the bone, and then like i said they realize, "hey, this works" and soon it becomes other things, toys, their food, a sock they found under the bed. They key is to do the exercises anyway no matter what just to nip it before it turns into anything.

I mentioned I had to do this with Atlas, well he never growled or even gave me the look. But because he came from a litter of 8, the second you put the food down for him he was like 'EVERY PUP FOR HIMSELF!!!' kinda thing and would just gulp it down. So I worked on showing him his food wasnt going anywhere and he didnt have to fight for it or eat as much as he could because no one was taking it. And that me being by his food was natural and he should enjoy it. Now he is happy as a clam with it and chews each bit of kibble. I am also doing this with any toy or treat, he has italways for no longer than 3 minutes before I go in, take it away, give him a treat, pet him, and give it back. By doing this I have eliminated any CPA later in life. But I am going to have to do it every day until he is 6 months old to really drive it home. Even if he seems absolutely fine.

Its not pittiful to be afraid at all!!! They do it because it does provoke that reaction in us and that is NORMAL thats why they do it! I'm the odd ball, it doesnt scare me anymore at all. LOL the look on some dogs faces when they have done it and i just keep coming, they look truly confused.
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.”

The loves of my life

Atlas - GSD
Merlin - Papillon
SweetPea - Papillon

Offline schelmischekitty

  • Chief "All Knowing"
  • *****
  • Posts: 2321
    • View Profile
    • myspace
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2007, 01:43:54 pm »
brownis, i totally agree with you.  i've learned that once you let a dog get away with something, it only gets worst each time from then on out when you back off.  we do the flipping thing also (even though a lot of people say it's easy to get bit, i've never been bitten and have done it to every dog i've ever had problems with) and can say it does help out a TON and it's no different than how an actual dog pack works. 
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
[img width= height= alt=Image Hosted by ImageShack.us]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3339/alltogethernowme6.jpg[/img]

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2007, 01:44:32 pm »
They are out and I made them sit and wait and not touch the bone until I told them to take it, he was surprsingly polite. Then hubby went over and took it away after a couple minutes and all he did was sniff it and paw at it to get it back. Later he went and petted him, Yukon just stopped and rolled on his back to get rubs. Hubby did this like 3 seperate times and each time Yukon did the same thing. Then I went over to pet and hug him and he was my same loveable boy this time, thank God. Wondering if the crate really did play a part. I will start the excercises though, glad this happened so I can learn how to prevent it in the future.

Yukon and Yiska were from a litter of 9 but I don't think Yukon had any issues getting food, he was a big boy and didn't seem to care, though not the most dominant of the litter, he was one of the lesser dominant males. Yiska was skinny so I don't know that she got enough food but she's also terribly submissive bless her heart.

Offline Brownis15

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2007, 01:53:15 pm »
yey! good to hear!!! It usually doesnt matter where the pup ranked in the litter in terms of developing CPA. He may have never had a problem getting food because at like 2-3 weeks old he was stronger and faster and more able. Some pups go one way, some go the other. Yiska stepped aside by the way you describe her. She is submissive so would fall t the lower ranks, so she is MUCH more likely not to have CPA cos her attitude is "you want it, okay just take it, PLEASE, HERE ILL BRING IT TO YOU!!!!" which is great. But do the exercises with her anyway, because it can be a learned beahvior. Yukon is more dominant and pushy. He may not even be dominant, just CONFIDENT. You are going to have to bend him a lot more than you will Yiska. But keep at it and do those exercises!!!

Atlas was dead smack in the middle in terms of where he ranked in his litter. He was respected but also backed down when he was told too. Thats why we chose him. He bends easily to my rules but thinks for himself too, which we needed in a narc dog.
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.”

The loves of my life

Atlas - GSD
Merlin - Papillon
SweetPea - Papillon

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2007, 01:55:26 pm »
brownis, i totally agree with you.  i've learned that once you let a dog get away with something, it only gets worst each time from then on out when you back off.  we do the flipping thing also (even though a lot of people say it's easy to get bit, i've never been bitten and have done it to every dog i've ever had problems with) and can say it does help out a TON and it's no different than how an actual dog pack works. 

Do you continue to do the flipping with your dogs, or only as pups? I can see doing it as puppies but I don't see a possible way that I could take down a 100+ dog personally.. and I know you have quite large dogs so that's why I'm curious. I know that if you try and fail, you've completely blown it and shown them you really aren't alpha. My friend can wrestle her Husky to the ground, he is about 80lbs, which is a ways away from like 140 hahaha, that's more than I weigh.

Offline Moni

  • Majestic Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 934
    • View Profile
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2007, 09:44:27 am »
Please do not Alpha roll your dogs (aka flip).   

An excellent article featuring an interview with Top trainer/behaviorist Dr Ian Dunbar:
http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/Bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm
BPO does not have my permission to use my photos.

Offline Brownis15

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2007, 10:45:32 am »
there is a fine line in this subject of training, a lot of people call this kind of reprimand an alpha roll, but if it is done correctly, it is simply a correction that is understood to the dog because it is DOG LANGUAGE. You are not tackling the dog when i decribe my method of punishment for a puppy, you are pinning the dog for a short moment while giving a huge verbal correction. It is a way to SHOCK the puppy out of a behavior, the same way a mother does to her puppies. In no way does it result in a fearful or cowering dog. They understand the correction and their behavior will modify quickly, but if we use a reprimand they dont understand (like hitting them with a newspaper or locking them in a crate), it will take much longer and the puppy becomes very confused.

When i talk about the exercise of holding a dog on his back, this is not as a punishment, this is conditioning submission, it is a calm, relaxing exercise and is not rolling your dog. However, you must hold your dog down in some instances, esp puppies if they rebel because you have to show the exercise is over on your terms, and only when calm will they be released. Its the same as conditioning a dog to have his paws touched type of thing.

A lot of people use alpha rolling with the same energy and force they would use if they were hitting the dog. Violently and forcefully. They scruff the dog and throw it on its back and that IS NOT what i am talking about. However, if done right, the exercise DOES work in calming the dog down, even ceaser milan does it, but you can see in his method it is not violent, but calm and quick, enough to get a point accross and thats it. It is not a punishment that needs to occur every day, or even every month. It is an exercise I stress with puppies because it is so similar to what their mother does with them. It shouldnt be used when your dog does something "kinda wrong" but when yukon growls or challenges his owner, he should be reprimanded the same way his mother or other litter mate would, with a fast, loud but non violent punishment to shock him and deter him from behaving the same way again.

As a trainer for 5 years, i have watched the alpha controversy explode and seen many "trainers" take the technique and run with it so to speak. Using it as the only form of punishment and thinking that if they alpha roll the dog, they dont need to do anything else to have a happy trained dog. There are other trainers that also NEVER punish, and only reward their dogs, thinking this will produce a well behaved dog. The truth is is that every dog is different but most need a little bit of everything in order to be a good dog, just like people. None of my methods EVER involve physically hurting a dog or causing fear. If they did, I wouldnt be a humane trainer. I use positive reinforcement methods but also use negative punishment and reinforcement (not necessarily 'bad') as well as conditioning and shaping and habituation and aversion.  Everything rolled into one. Some dogs i KNOW not to use some methods with. So please excuse me if it appeared as though i was speaking for every dog with food aggression issues or total dog training as a whole. Notice when I was describing dealing with an adult dog with CPA i never mentioned alpha rolling him, because I simply wouldnt do that. I was advising mama23 on yukon and yukon only.

I think from now on i will not give out behavior advice. If you would like a consult with me you may PM me and I will give general tips on behavior on the boards but it just may be too touchy. I would like to state though that I am certified through CCPDT as a trainer. I studied Canine behavior in college and wrote my thesis on positive training methods after working with Elephants at the zoo for 2 years and am currently working on a book about the origin of the dog and how it relates to wolves. (did you know that there is only a .2% difference in wolf DNA vs dog DNA? they are that similar)

I am sorry to have offended anyone or gone against what others believe is the best way to handle their dog.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 10:55:37 am by Brownis15 »
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.”

The loves of my life

Atlas - GSD
Merlin - Papillon
SweetPea - Papillon

Offline Moni

  • Majestic Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 934
    • View Profile
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2007, 11:07:14 am »
I don't think that you should stop posting at all.  There are many opposing methods of dog training and I believe that one should learn them all and apply what works best for their situation.  There is a big difference in teaching puppies to accept restraint and alpha rolling. 

I realize that all people train their dogs differently.  I apologize that I said "DON'T do this", I should've just said that I advise against it.  I've just seen bad things happen when inexperienced people try to forcibly roll their dogs, especially ones showing aggression and I was worried for her safety.

I personally prefer to use behavior modification along with clicker & lure training.  I just don't understand why someone would use force & confrontation when there are other ways around it.

I am curious to know how you would reprimand an elephant?  I am not being sarcastic, but would genuinely like to know?  The reason that I got interested in clicker training 16yrs ago was because it was used in aquariums, zoos and for training animals for movies & etc.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm

That has some other great articles if anyone is interested.
BPO does not have my permission to use my photos.

Offline schelmischekitty

  • Chief "All Knowing"
  • *****
  • Posts: 2321
    • View Profile
    • myspace
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2007, 11:18:58 am »
moni, i have a question.  with the people who you've seen, did they do it out of anger or aggravation, or even with uncertainty / nervousness (which can cause confusion in dogs)?  we do it, but we do it in a very controlled manner, to where the only difference between someone holding them down for a nail trim (which we normally don't have to do) and flipping is that they're on their back.  it shouldn't hurt them, it should be a conditioned response that teaches them that yes, you're boss, but when they do it they should be a "calm and assertive" state, not because they're terrified of you.  it should be done out of submission, but never fear.

also, the article says that adult wolves don't forcibly roll others.  true, but please consider that mothers / other adult dogs roll the puppies all the time (whether it's for cleaning, or what not), and also litter mates do it "playing" and they assert who's the dominant adult / puppy and who's the underdog (dominant and submissive personalities).  because of this, it's conditioned from birth, and they already know how the hierarchy is going to work and don't often test it in adulthood (unless it's a similarly ranked dog, or they're trying to work up), but instead go ahead and just submit or dominate.  in our dogs, this exact same thing happens with the mother and litter mates, causing the same outcome.  sometimes you get a very dominant dog and sometimes you get a very submissive dog.  sometimes the owner needs to step in with some sort of hierarchy / structure or the dominant dog can become more and more and more dominant, to the point where it could cause problems further down the road.  whether you choose to do positive reinforcement, or other method.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 11:29:33 am by schelmischekitty »
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
[img width= height= alt=Image Hosted by ImageShack.us]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3339/alltogethernowme6.jpg[/img]

Offline Brownis15

  • Big Paws-a-holic
  • **
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2007, 11:45:58 am »
Reprimand an elephant, lol ;D. I never did! I wrote my thesis on positive methods of training on elephants so did not use any negative reinforcers at all. It was to prove that the elephants in sri lanka and southeast asia being used to haul timber would perform better if treated positively rather than being hit with whips or yelled at, or having acid hooks put in them to force them to move.

I did have to use a negative reinforcer with Zulu however, he was a young male who when not in the mood would not behave and would charge other elephants if they came too close to me. LOL he absolutely worshipped me so all i had to do was tap his rear leg with my stick and say NO in a sharp deep tone. If he did it again, I walked away and paid attention to another elephant. I trained him to lift his legs to be inspected and to have medical exams done with no problem. "lift up" and "still" were his favorite games.

A clicker is a WONDERFUL tool in training because it is a specific clear marker that animals respond to very well. I didnt use it with the elephants, my marker was "GOOD NELLY" lol when they heard that they knew they were doing well.
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.”

The loves of my life

Atlas - GSD
Merlin - Papillon
SweetPea - Papillon

mama23+pyrs2

  • Guest
Re: Bone agression, help please :(
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2007, 01:51:57 pm »
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the input! Sorry if anyone had a problem with the subject but it's good we all can believe in and practice different methods, based on what works for our dogs- each one being and needing different correction just like children!

We have to do what we feel is best for our situations and I appreciate everyone trying to help. :) I'll keep ya updated on Yukon's progress.