Great Pyr & Landseer Newfie

[Gypsy Jazmine]

I'd read this before but just read it again while engaged in one of my favorite passtimes...re searching the Great Pyrenees.

"Once he left the mountains, the Pyr became a favorite in the French courts. The dog's prowess as a guard was a topic of conversation as early as 1407, and the breed was dubbed the Royal Dog of France by Louis XIV in 1675. A few years earlier, the Pyr had migrated to Newfoundland with Basque fishermen to protect the new settlement, and there it took part in the development of the Newfoundland dog. Today, the Pyrenees' influence can be seen in the lankier look of the black-and-white Landseer Newfoundland."

I'd read before that the Newfie came from a mix of the Flat Coated Retriever & the Pyr...But I've also read many other theories about the origin of the Newfie...What have you all read or heard?...Just curious.

[newflvr]

I've heard a Native American dog and Mastiff mix as the most common  origin. That posting was the first time I'd seen that we're ( ) related!  It makes sense, though looking at their coats and heads.  The older style Newf had a head much more like a Pyr.  The modern head is much bigger and broader. 

I think this stuff is fascinating!!!

[AC]

The theories on the origin of the newf are many and all are base on pure speculation. It has been said that a big black bear dog had travelled to Newfoundland with the vikings and set the foundation for the Newfoundland which then became very usefull to the seasonal visitors to the island and developed into an important part of the culture here. The characteristic s of the newf may have already been set before more breeds were introduced. The most likely breeds that were introduced were the Great Pyrenees and or the Tibetan Mastiff and that gave the newf his look (which of course has changed a great deal over time). I've never heard of the flat coated retriever being part of the equation. In Newfoundland a law was passed that limited households to only 2 of these magnificent dogs and outlawed the breeding of them, that is when they were brought to England and their looks further refined to more what they look like today. I believe the landseer is closer to the original newf and the black won the popularity award. In Europe the landseer is now a seperate breed, lankier and taller.

[MustLove Dogs]

I thought I heard that the flat coated retriever came from a newf, not vice-versa

this is a very interesting topic, btw 

[Gypsy Jazmine]

I thought I heard that the flat coated retriever came from a newf, not vice-versa

this is a very interesting topic, btw 

It is interesting!...Don't we all just love to know about where our dogs might have come from?

[Senghe]

I seriously doubt that the Tibetan Mastiff played much direct influence on the Newf as they were almost non existent in the West up until about 100 years ago and even then were extremely rare. It's only in the last 30 years the TM's have become established in Europe and USA. The Newf has been well established in the same places for far longer.

Maybe one TM sneaked in the gene pool along the way as it did with the Mastiffs?

There is a good probability that the TM is the forerunner of all LGD and Molossers (or should we say that they share a common ancestor with the TM's alive today). What little archaeological finds, historical evidence and DNA studies there are point that way.

[newflvr]

I seriously doubt that the Tibetan Mastiff played much direct influence on the Newf as they were almost non existent in the West up until about 100 years ago and even then were extremely rare.

I always wondered about that...how a Tibetan Mastiff made it all the way to Norway, Canada and/or US.  It seems far more likely that it was another kind of Mastiff.  Were there Native American dogs here??

[AC]

I seriously doubt that the Tibetan Mastiff played much direct influence on the Newf as they were almost non existent in the West up until about 100 years ago and even then were extremely rare.

I always wondered about that...how a Tibetan Mastiff made it all the way to Norway, Canada and/or US.  It seems far more likely that it was another kind of Mastiff.  Were there Native American dogs here??

On the Island of Newfoundland it is believed that there were no native dogs here. So the origins of the Newf are certainly a mystery! As for the Tibetan Mastiff, it was brought and bred in England in the begining of the 19th century so it could have certainly contributed to todays Newfoundland dog.

[Senghe]

As for the Tibetan Mastiff, it was brought and bred in England in the begining of the 19th century so it could have certainly contributed to todays Newfoundland dog.

True, but that infers that there were lots of Tibetan Mastiffs where in truth there were only ever a handful and several times there were no specimens alive in some countries for decades between imports. In England, there were probably no more than 20-30 in total between the 1800's and 1980's - to the point where each individual dog can be named. I'm pretty sure if there is any TM blood in the Newf due to English breeders, the KC stud books should be able to tell us like they do with the Mastiff.

[AC]

As for the Tibetan Mastiff, it was brought and bred in England in the begining of the 19th century so it could have certainly contributed to todays Newfoundland dog.

True, but that infers that there were lots of Tibetan Mastiffs where in truth there were only ever a handful and several times there were no specimens alive in some countries for decades between imports. In England, there were probably no more than 20-30 in total between the 1800's and 1980's - to the point where each individual dog can be named. I'm pretty sure if there is any TM blood in the Newf due to English breeders, the KC stud books should be able to tell us like they do with the Mastiff.

I agree with you that if there was TM blood in the Newf it most likely would have been documented somewhere as it isn't that far back in history. One of the theories of the Newfoundland points to a mastiff type dog brought to Newfoundland by the Vikings in 1000 AD, so I guess it is assumed the Vikings had dogs very close to the TM. And with that theory it is these Mastiff's that set the foundation for the Newf who was then further refined in appearance (his characteristic s were most likely already set) in the 15th and 16th century with the introduction of Great Pry blood for size and possibly Portugese Water Dog.