Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!

[jabear]

Thanbks for the support everyone. Angus and Cody are not even my dogs but I feel that I have invested alot of love in them and was so frustrated that along with Nicki, I cried too. 

On a positive note, Nicki and Angus are beginnng obedience classes on Saturday with an excellent trainer. She has dealt with so many aggressive/terrified dogs and really does make them change for the better. I have seen it with my own eyes and when Nicki moved here I told her she had to meet and get into classes with Melody. Something that Nicki has not mentioned (I don't beleive) is the fact that Melody actually worked with a dog for a few months who we all believe to be Angus' littermate. This little girl came in very young to be worked with because she exhibited all of the same issues and is now doing very well with her owner.

So, we will both read up on the things you have mentioned and still try to get the DW to write us back...I have called before...and hope and pray that things get better. 

[newflvr]

I have heard from people that have used the DW that you have to be persistent to get to talk to him.  Maybe "dog" is his first language!.  Keep trying!!!   and good luck!

[Icerotti]

oh that is very frustrating. I had similar issues with Puck. I ended up doing private lessons ( did not end up more than taking group) with a trainer that had 20 years + of dog experience. Aggressive dogs too. We started off working on our own commands first. Then he started to bring one other dog around then two. Started slowly and worked up. I could never do a class with they way Puck was at the beginning. Very much like Angus. He would listen with one dog but throwing one more dog into was too much for him. We ended up doing electric collar traing all controlled by the trainer. Made a world of difference. Good Luck

[dohertyswissy]

Just a quick note to say that I know with the love of the two of you that Angus and Cody will get their a**es in gear.  Y'all are great!  Call in the experts, stay dedicated and patient.  I know Cody and Angus want to be good doggies for Mom and Auntie Jamie.  It just takes longer.  (Can you imagine what our parents went through?!?! ) 

Hugs,

Swissy

[LaurieW]

You might also look at these sights:
www.apdt.com    (association of pet dog trainers)
www.nadoi.org     (national association of dog obedience instructors)
www.dogwhisper erdvd.com   this is Paul Owens' site - he advocates positive, non-violent training

...from what I can see Cesar Millan (sp?) (also called the dog whisperer - this is the one on Nat'l Geographic) he likes working with celebrities and he separates the dogs from their owners ... I've looked at his website & read some of the articles posted there - I'm not sure what method he's using because there is no info on the website about it, but separating the dogs & owners doesn't really sound like a good solution to me....just my 2 cents, tho

I may have missed it in all the posts on BPO....but what does Red (our own BPO dog whisperer) have to say??

[GreatDanz]

You know, Java and Mickey will do the same thing when they are together, it's called pack mentality.  The two of them together are ruthless tough guys, apart, they are sweet babies.  You should see them if we are outside, especially if DH is out too, they think they're invincible!

I would try reintroducing the dogs on neutral ground, just one at a time.  No other dogs should be near, even in the car.  Remember, if they are on leashes this will make them more defensive, so they should either both be on a leash, or both off.

[pndlake]

Believe me, I have dealt with this before and I have had to resort to extreme measures just to make sure everybody is safe.  Some of my dog-rolling methods I have used maybe twice in my lifetime of dogs but it has been effective - I do not allow that type of behavior EVER and they know it.  If I was sure the dog whisperers method would work, I would love to know more as I do respect their methods.  I can just tell you that when faced with this problem you must make some rapid, quick judgements and enforce them immediately because if you wait too long, it will never be effective.  I am ususally against electric collars in all training problems except this particular one.  If it is not dealt with swiftly and harshly then it will continue and someone will get hurt.  Sorry I sound so harsh in my old fashioned methods.

Peggy

[brigid67]

How very stressfull...I am sorry for everyone.  It seems that Cody feeds off of Angus's behavior.   I think the training them alone or with Bear is a great idea.  I am glad that training has been started.  I think with love and patience it will all work out fine.  I also agree that some dogs are just not dogpark kinda dogs.  My male pom is very aggressive toward other dogs. Especially bigger dogs.  And since he only weighs 5 lbs - all dogs are bigger.  He would be dangerous if he weighed 50 more lbs.  Anyway, the 1st time I took him to the dog park he was great - I was shocked.  and the 2nd time he tried to pick fights with everyone - i was so worried the bigger dogs were going to hurt him.  He won't be able to go back to the dog park.

[Svnt4God]

Have you tried a shock collar???

As shocking as that may sound (sorry ... no pun intended) ... it might be very effective in this type of situation.


... just a though ...

[LuvmyMal]

Nickers,
 The training will work. I have found that with Tonka and now Nala the more upset I get the more they feed off my emotions and keep going. The key with them is consistency and being calm,  but at the same time aggressive with what I tell them. We have see many fights where one dog was on a leash and another dog did not like the body language and to be honest one of them scared Tonka so bad she would not play with anyone for the rest of the day and stayed under Brandon's feet.  You know Angus and Cody's behavors and maybe taking them separately is the key, on another group for malamutes I am associated with someone has a cranky dog, he is muzzled when not acting appropriately and also has a time out place that when he is not behaving correctly he has to stay in there and that is where he sleeps for the night.  It will get better.
Hugs & Malakisses (from Tonka and Nala)
Tasha, Tonka, and Nala

[RedyreRottweilers]

I really do not understand why it is so important to people that their dogs "play nice" with other dogs that are not their pack members.

This is not normal behavior for a canid. In the wild, dogs and wolves are social pack animals. Strangers are viewed as a threat, and are treated as such.

I do insist on civil behavior, but I don't expect my dogs to interact socially with those they do not know.

One should keep in mind that when a dog is already showing inappropriate aggressive behavior to others, inflicting PAIN on that dog as a "correction" amy cause the dog to associate this discomfort with the appearance of approach of another dog, COMPOUNDING your problem, not solving it.

I prefer to teach the dog to pay attention to ME with positive methods. I do this in a distraction free comfortable area at first, such as inside your home. ONce the dog learns to look when you say the name, then I introduce distractions. The dog is rewarded when he looks at me instead of the distraction.

Once focussed attention is properly trained, you can then ask the dog to pay attention to YOU instead of the distraction, the other dog.

It is very important that the dog views you as his absolute trusted and DOMINANT pack leader for any of these methods to work.

I have talked in several different posts here about how to train your dog to pay attention to you, but if someone wants a review, I will post it in a different post with that topic so it can be looked up later.

[Willow]

I agree totally with RedyreRottweil ers. 

It seems everyone wants their dog to be "social" with all other dogs,  and for the reasons Redyre listed, it just isn't natural behavior for most dogs.  I also feel a lot of this misconception comes from the "newer" trainer's popping up all over that don't understand what "socialization" really means.  It does not mean dogs should be socialized with other dogs, but with humans and different situations/things in the environment.  I would never, ever attend a training class where the "trainer's" allow free for all  "play times" before/after class etc.  So many puppies and dogs have had bad experiences from doing this, which has led to fear aggression problems.

I also agree that I would not correct with a shock collar.  Unless a dog is truly aggressive, you are very experienced in using a shock collar, and have tried everything else first, the results can be disasterous.  I have seen instances of "misplaced aggression" where the dog will turn on the one administering the shock.

Like Redyre, I expect my dogs to be civil with other dogs, but I do not allow my dogs to go up to every strange dog and "make friends" and I insist their  focus be on me at all times.  It is just good ediquette, and excellent training.