Author Topic: (Update) Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation  (Read 5931 times)

Offline wiss329

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(Update) Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« on: June 13, 2006, 06:26:07 pm »
Just returned home from the dog park.  Great weather, however, we left after only about 3 minutes.  Our 17 month old saint Max, who I would have said had not met a dog he didn't like, had issues with 2 different dogs there.  First time was soon after coming in the gate and Max was sniffing along the fence.  A black lab came over to sniff Max.  Max responded with a growling bark.  We grabbed Max and put him in a sit-down. 

Soon thereafter he went over to greet people sitting at the picnic table and starting sniffing dogs with his tail wagging.  Max then started sniffing and was being sniffed by a yellow lab, when Max responded in the same growling bark as before.  There was some forward motion from him (not exactly lunges--best way to characterize it was aggressively defensive motion), and I was about to grab his tail (I remember reading in the dog park newsletter they recommended grabbing the tail in a dog fight.  Two weekends ago, a small dog was killed by a medium size dog at the park.  We weren't there when it happened, but that was the vision going through my head).  We got Max away and decided we were leaving immediately.

My husband and I were in shock.  This may sound like a cliche, but we have never seen Max like this.  We have been going to this park for about a year since around the time we adopted him.  The other dogs did nothing that should cause Max to act the way he did.  It just doesn't make sense to us.  Many times have I described Max as the ultimate dog park dog--loves to play, gentle around small dogs, loves greeting people and dogs. 

Not to influence anyone into thinking this is the cause, but about a month ago Max injured his knee at the park after his leg became caught between two smaller dogs (seeing him go down scared me to death.  I thought he either broke a bone or tore his acl).  We have since gone to the park once since the injury (this was a week ago), but we were there too long and he started limping (walking on only 3 legs) at the end.   

He didn't appear to be in any kind of pain today or recently.  Otherwise, we would not have gone.  The vet had told us after the knee injury to wait two weeks before going back...being paranoid parents, we waited about 4.

So, any ideas on what we could do or possibly why it happened?  I have heard that some dog's behavior changes around 2 years.  Is he just changing?

Max and us absolutely love going to the dog park, but unfortunately, this is not the type of behavior we can tolerate from him if we do. :-[

We are very open to suggestions or ideas or your thoughts.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 11:28:38 am by wiss329 »

doggylover

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Re: Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2006, 06:46:07 pm »
It is really hard to have any really helpful advice without a TON of information, and I realize that it would be too extensive to cover all the necessary points in a post. 
My general feeling is that dog parks aren't a great idea.  There is just too many things going on all at once, and it's too easy for a dog to get hurt or killed.  We used to take Badger and LOVED going, but I got sick of him being bitten by little ill behaved yappers. 
It is important to socialize him, but I would suggest you do it in a situation where there is one on one control, like in ob classes or at someplace like Petsmart.  A nice dog can get overwhelmed by 20 wild dogs all running around being wild. 
The other thing is that he may associate being there with being hurt and he is now aggresively posturing to avoid that happening again.  I think its better to just avoid the park; I know how sad that is, as I used to enjoy it as much as Pookie did. 
Not much else I can say, I hope this is helpful.
Ronda

Gypsy Jazmine

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Re: Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2006, 07:01:43 pm »
His age set a lighbulb off in my head...Pippin will be 17 months & he is well into his "butthead" stage & is constantly in one of our other dogs faces...Mostly Sam's...Pippin is making his challenge for alpha here & it can get rather annoying...Goo d luck!...Max is neutered..righ t?

Offline mixedupdog

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Re: Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2006, 07:34:55 pm »
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/aggressionbasics.html

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/aggreasons.html

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/selfpg.html

These are really excellent articles by Suzanne Clothier on this subject, see if any of the above fit your situation.

I hate the dog park, we only go in the middle of the day or other off-peak hours when hardly anyone will be there. MY dogs are under control, but too many other people's dogs aren't and I don't think it's fair for the boys to have to keep being subjected to rudeness. I get in arguments with Lab owners all the time, they think because their dog is "friendly" (read obnoxious and untrained) that anything they do is ok. Phyfe doesn't like to be pestered, he won't bite, but he'll roar like a lion and send the other dog running. Then he gets accused of being "aggressive".  If the other dog owner ignores it, his boundaries are established, and usually there's no more problem.

A while back someone mentioned their trainer said that what goes on at the dog park isn't really "play" anyway, it's all posturing and jockeying for position. I agree, I run playgroups at my job, and it's the same thing, all the running and growling is just low-level pack positioning, it has nothing to do with play as we would conceive it, no matter how good natured it is.

The other day we went and some other big paws were there, a Newfie, two Mastiffs, and a St. Mix. Everyone was happily having a good time, exploring and sniffing, playing a little tag, but no frantic activity-they're all 3 years old or more, it's just not their nature. Then a lady with a Yellow Lab showed up. The Lab kept charging the big guys, jumping at them, play bowing and barking (it was actually kind of funny at first, everytime he let out that shrill play bark Phyfe and the Mastiffs squeezed their eyes and flinched a little). None of the big dogs were comfortable with that game, but the Lab refused to back off. He even ran completely UNDER another dog a few times. Earnest was the only one that understood it, but he's half Lab, so he half-heartedly played back, but you could tell he really preferred his other buddies.  We moved to another side of the park, the Lab came, too and the owner called it once or twice, but it didn't listen. Finally the big dogs were getting irritated, I was afraid if Phyfe did his "back off" noise that the other dogs might jump in and fight, so I leashed him and walked over to the lady, I told her that her dog just didn't fit, and could she keep him on the other side of the (huge) park. She got nasty, and said "not my fault your dogs are aggressive, BEASTS like that shouldn't even be allowed to breed, let alone come out in public!"  Not the first time I heard that one.
So six to one, and she got what she wanted, we all leashed up and left, you know what would have happened, if her dog got so much as a scratch the big dogs would have been at fault, just 'cause they're big. This particular park exists mostly because of the efforts of the people involved in Newf/Great Dane rescue, it's a shame that we can rarely enjoy it.


Offline wiss329

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Re: Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2006, 07:42:11 pm »
Yep. Max is neutered.  Been fixed since about 5 months old.

Also, aggressive posturing seems like a good description for what it was.

Yaz

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Re: Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2006, 08:22:56 pm »
I have found that even my most well socialized dogs will change with their reactions to other dogs in the dog park around 18 mths to 2 years. It as if they leave puppyhood acceptance of every dog they meet behind and start to show their rank. I had a lab x bullmastiff named Angus, raised from 10 wks of age, who was one of the most well socialized, doggy diplomatic dogs you could meet. He would make even the most crankiest of dogs play with him. If he was playing with small dogs or puppies he would lie on his back so they would not be intimidated by him. In fact, I had to teach him the command "shake him off, Angus!", for him to wriggle his way out of dogs humping him, since he was so tolerant about being dominated. But then, around 2 years, a dog challenged him and instead of appeasing the dog or backing away, he growled and gave it right back. I was in shock, but then I realized he was now an adult. And sure enough, the days of every dog being his friend were over.
So, in terms of your guy, I think he has reached maturity and may be letting other dogs know it. Gershwin, our Saint, is eight months and is still at the point where he is easily  cowed by other dogs and dominant males, but I am bracing for the day (which will come by 18 months or earlier) when he is going to react as a confident adult male instead of an unsure puppy, because it will not sound nice and no doubt other dog owners are going to overreact. It is almost as if, the bigger the dog, the more submissive it is supposed to be with other dogs in its face - the minute a big dog shows dominance or rank, other dog owners get very nervous.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 08:25:40 pm by Yaz »

Offline newflvr

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Re: Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2006, 08:41:32 pm »
We just don't do dog parks any more. :(  I've found that it's just too risky for my big guys.  Most people, sadly, have the impression that since they are in the dog park they don't need to be aware of what their dogs are doing.  They CERTAINLY aren't watching for any warning signs like growling, dominance posturing, etc.  I've seen too many dogs get in to fights and badly hurt because their people were off chatting up the cute thing on the other side of the park with the tiny dog.  We do play groups with owners and dogs who we know well and are responsible and caring not only for their own dogs but others as well.

Another issue are the dog diseases that are going around.  Again, Cowboy's health is always so tenuous, I'm just not willing to gamble with him.

I think everybody else's ideas are great and you all must have far more responsible people with dogs than are living here on the left coast.  It's true...someone tipped the continent and all the nuts rolled here!! ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline shelebo

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Re: Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2006, 01:04:45 pm »
I am saddened by the thought that going to the dog park is a bad idea.  Bentley absolutely lives for it!  At the park we go to, the owners are usually really attentive.  I've only ever seen 1 real possible fight but both dog owners got involved quickly and removed their dogs. 

I guess we should feel very lucky.

Offline VdogLover

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Re: Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2006, 01:19:25 pm »
I have not read all responds so if this has been said sorry~

You stated: The other dogs did nothing that should cause Max to act the way he did. >>>

Yes, they did do something they were in his space. Plain and simple. I will bet he gave them signals before the final result of growling/barking...either a fast freeze, eye flash something they always give a sign. Problem comes when the dog being given the signs doesn't listen.
If all he did was growl/bark (even of he moved into their space) I have to say this is normal,fine, and should not be corrected.
Maybe he no longer enjoys Dog park and its time to look for other ways to get him out. Maybe a private playtime with one other respectful dog?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 01:23:21 pm by VdogLover »

Offline wiss329

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Re: (Update) Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2006, 11:33:09 am »
We may have found the reason for his reaction...
We went back to the vet this past Monday.  It's been a month and a half since his knee injury at the park and his knee is still swollen.  The vet believes Max has a partially torn ACL.  We are going to a specialist next week for a consultation, but we are preparing ourselves for Max to have TPLO surgery.  :(

Offline wiss329

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Re: (Update) Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2006, 07:02:46 pm »
My fingers are crossed (many times over).  A small part of me has hope that he won't need surgery.  However, the realistic and worrying parts of me are speaking louder.

The day after the vet visit, all I wanted to do was stay at home from work and read everything I could about ACL injuries.  Something that helped is that I found a really good yahoo group/messageboard (orthodogs) that helped provide information on types of surgery and recommendation s for doctors in the area.  If anyone is going through the same thing, I'd really recommend it.
 
No, unfortunately the vet didn't give us any restrictions this time...I'm guessing we should just use common sense (i.e. no dog park).

Offline Newf Lover

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Re: (Update) Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2006, 10:39:38 am »
He probably doesn't like his butt being overly sniffed.  Drake doesn't like being humped by other males at all and growls and barks when a dog won't let up, he even pretends like he's going to snap at them, the little whip-around growl, when they won't stop trying.  You just have to keep an eye on things, and don't be afraid to jump in and put a stop to things, even if you have to shoo off someone elses dog.  I see a lot of people here on BPO having issues at dog parks and it seems like most issues are resolved by keeping your dog away from "problem" dogs and their psycho owners and just sticking close to your dog so they don't get hurt or into trouble.  Dog Parks are great venues for us and our dogs, but that gift comes with a price, i.e. watching out for agressive/stupid other dogs and their owners, keeping an eye on our own dogs behaviour and WATCHING OUT FOR HIDDEN PILES OF POOP!!!  If you can handle all of those things, the dog park experience is that much easier.
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doggylover

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Re: (Update) Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2006, 01:14:46 pm »
We may have found the reason for his reaction...
We went back to the vet this past Monday.  It's been a month and a half since his knee injury at the park and his knee is still swollen.  The vet believes Max has a partially torn ACL.  We are going to a specialist next week for a consultation, but we are preparing ourselves for Max to have TPLO surgery.  :(
OMG if you want to talk to me about the tplo, PM me.  Badger had one, $3000.00, now he is limping on the other, needs the other one done...we are on a wait list for this particular surgeon. 

Offline shangrila

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Re: (Update) Advice/Thoughts needed...Dog park situation
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2006, 08:04:26 pm »
Sorry to hear about his knee  :(
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