When to neuter?

[Lyn]

We have people come up to us all the time to see Lola and at least 2 out of 5 will mention that they have met or known an aggressive Saint. It's just so odd to me to think of Saints as aggressive.. even with Bubba being intact he's a big baby. I think alot of it has to do with the breeding rather than whether they are intact or not. Although being intact may make their aggressivness worse.. but you would still see aggression testicles or no testicles. BYB's don't give a crap about temperment.. just bucks. They are ruining the breed

That being said though, Bubba and Lola are byb dogs and I wouldn't trade them for the world. Luckily they are both correct in temperment and I've had no major health problems to date.

You know I just realized how exactly much I love BPO! I don't have to hold anything back here.. and I can ask about anything without thinking 'Am I going to be jumped on if I ask about this or that?". If I were to mention anywhere else that Bubba was intact, regardless of the reason. I would have people jumping down my throat.

Sorry I got a little off topic I just had to mention that.

[Good Hope]

IMO, you hit the nail on the head here SC Trojans.

This is sadly becoming such a difficult decision for so many and I wish it didn't prove to be so challenging. But the fact of the matter is there is very very little scientific study on the subject that "proves" much for either side of the argument. Until there is, it will be controversial. In the meantime, everyone elects what they read and want to follow - not a bad thing in lieu of any credible information.

Many against early spay quote Chris Zink, who has compelling arguments, but likes to cite a lot "research" here and there that is highly misleading and over-stated. Vets on the other side however also like to say things like "proven to have no affect". This is no more compelling or substantiated.

The only broad and credible study we have states that spayed animals will grow 1/4" longer in the long bones (legs)and therefore be "slightly taller". There is no evidence it is any more significant than this. Many agree that the lankier look in many large dogs is a telltale sign of spay. Now if you are highly involved in performance events (agility, flyball etc.) then this can be very meaningful. If not, it is highly unlikely this will matter.  This long bone growth is why Zink recommends waiting until 13-14 months - when the long bone is generally finished growing (although the growth plates often have not closed).  Much more goes into structural health and performance - the structure of the dog and how well the dog meets its breed standard is most critical here. If you have a dog with poor angulation in the rear, it won't matter when you spay - he will still be at risk for physical injury.

Hormones certainly play a clear role in the degree of masculinity and femininity in the dog - this is mostly expression/face, breadth etc.  Spay does not affect other skeletal growth - size of head - or coat growth.

If your concern is health however, there is growing intuitive belief that the immune system is best developed and regulated with hormones intact - although no studies have been performed in canines.  We know that in humans, a child that loses her adrenal glands early receives significant hormone treatments to carefully manage growth and normal development. It stands to reason that the canine is better off not having its hormones removed prior to immune system maturity - in large breeds this occurs at about 9-10 months of age.

I am a big proponent of spay/neuter and think it is important societally.  I have had dogs spayed at 8 weeks and 6 months and everything in between.  I have never waited longer.  If I get increasingly larger dogs (who take longer to mature including the immune system), I will likely feel compelled to wait until after 10 months to do so in the future strictly for immune health.  I am not concerned about physical development since I am not a breeder and do not show. I focus instead on acquiring a dog with sound structure that meets the breed standard (often not possible in rescue) and if I don't and am aware of structural weakness - I will be more careful and watch this dog for injury.

I agree with most posts here already - the performance considerations, the importance of spay/neuter, and most importantly, the tremendous difference in recovery time and risk of complications the older the animal is.  At 8 weeks old, they are playing 2 hours later. At 4 months old, they are playing the next day.  And at over a year, the risk of complication and degree of pain is much much higher.

In the end, I think you should do what your heart and inclination is - otherwise you can only regret. If you are comfortable with waiting a bit longer, do not have behavioral issues or raging hormones, and are a responsible owner, then do what makes you most comfortable.

[tyscrzymom]

We had Bubba neutered at 7 months and only for the reason that I thought that was when to do it. However reading about the aggression stuff just made a light go off in my head! Bubba was aggressive and had been since about 3 months. He had problems with my son (5) all he had to do was walk by him and Bubba would go after him biting all the way. But you know that all stopped after he was neutered and I never made the connection til now! We were even considering returning him to his BYB!!!! Also he has never marked his territory and he is now 17 months old and still squats to pee...which is nice since or last dog was a Pug who thought everything in the yard was a pee target! If he was to short to reach something to pee on it then he would just do this funny cartwheel thing and peg it every time...lol

[PennyK]

Aggression with your 5yr old son.....hmmmm. ...sounds familiar!

Teddy is 7.5 months now and he is playing too rough with my 5 yr old.  Grabbing him by the shirt/pant and dragging him sometimes  !  I can give him heck but he still does it.  My son was crying last night because he said Teddy tried to bite the back of his head (there were no marks at all).  Never thought of it being related to being intact before. (duhh on my part!)

Hmmm....maybe NOW is a good time to neuter! 

[chaos270]

I think the rough play might be more of him seeing your son as a playmate but it could be hormones too.  I think the best way to correct it is to make your son higher in the heirarchy.  I'd have your son do obedience with him and maybe be the one that feeds him.  And when he start doing it give a good correction with maybe a spray bottle, noisy can, or something else.  I think maybe your son needs to do the correction for it to be more effective.

[tyscrzymom]

We did all those things with our Bubba at 3 1/2 months he went to jr obedience and our son did most of the training also he was the one to feed and water,also any time they were to go thru a doorway we always made sure that our son went thru before Bubba to establish a sorta pecking order...so to speak. We made sure our son went before the dog for everything even getting in the car! Nothing worked with our stubborn guy. But seriously it all did stop after he was neutered. They are best friends now and Bubba goes everywhere he goes and we never have to worry about the two of the together anymore  Bubba has turned out to be quite the buddy for him!!!

[Lyn]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't between the ages of 7-10 months the 'unruly stage'. Obedience and commands go in one ear and out the other and you wonder what you got yourself into. LOL They also begin to test the 'pecking order' usually picking on the 'weakest link' first which is generally the kids.

Bubba went through this stage too.. my son became his chew/tug toy. Kids have such high pitched voices that tend to excite dogs.. so I had my son lower his voice when correcting Bubba and it did help. It was really frustrating for awhile there though. But it did pass and now Bubba realizes that he is below my son in the pecking order.

I'm not looking forward to Lola going through this stage either.

[sc.trojans]

Yes...its called adolescence

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't between the ages of 7-10 months the 'unruly stage'. Obedience and commands go in one ear and out the other and you wonder what you got yourself into. LOL They also begin to test the 'pecking order' usually picking on the 'weakest link' first which is generally the kids.

Bubba went through this stage too.. my son became his chew/tug toy. Kids have such high pitched voices that tend to excite dogs.. so I had my son lower his voice when correcting Bubba and it did help. It was really frustrating for awhile there though. But it did pass and now Bubba realizes that he is below my son in the pecking order.

I'm not looking forward to Lola going through this stage either.

[shi_ni_ke]

We are still debating whether to wait and neuter Frodobert at age 2 or 2.5 or to do the vasectomy, but then he will be a mobility assistance dog and proper bone growth is a concern for us. We aren't looking for a taller or lankier dog, we are looking for a dog with good solid bone growth and a means of limiting contributing factors for dysplasia. Since he is being trained as a service dog, he is never left alone in the yard or let off leash and primarily resides inside the house.
So far, living with 2 spayed females, we haven't seen any sign of male behavior problems. He also hasn't learned to mark territory either. Some of these behavior issues are learned and with no one to teach him, he just hasn't picked them up. Our 50 pound, 11 year old American Water Spaniel "queen" can put him down with just an upturn of the lip and something that sounds like a bear's growl when he gets too rambunctious for her liking.
Having worked 20+ years in dog rescue, I too understand the need to control unwanted litters. However, if a vasectomy or a tubal ligation can resolve the issues surrounding hormones and can reduce unwanted litters and help reduce the number of dogs and cats in the shelters, then I am willing to explore this path and would love to see the research in 10-20 years as more people opt for these procedures instead.

[patrick]

For those that think that early spay neuter doesn't have an effect on skeletal development never had horses!  In horses the males are deliberately altered VERY early in order to get an additional 3 or more inches in height- they also will have a much lighter bone structure.

In humans early surgical removal of the sexual hormone structures is a catastrophic event with multiple serious medical side effects - why do we think the same doesn't happen with animals?

[sc.trojans]

I don't think anyone is arguing "No" skeletal development impact - but I am one who is arguing minimal that has not been proven to be detrimental.  I completely agree with your horse and human description - both very large mammals that are at least twice the size as the canine.  Of course, the impact is greater.

Studies have been done on the skeletal impact in canines and found a 1/4" inch difference in the long bones (legs).  It does NOT affect head/skull development but it does delay the closing of the growth plates for the long bones - thereby allowing for longer growth.

This figure makes sense when you compare it to the roughly 3' inches in horses - a much larger mammal.

[annaaul]

Im a firm believer in that if you are not going to breed the dog then neuter the dog.
We waited expecting our saint to be of normal size and had plans on weight pulling and breeding. During this time (between birth and 1 1/2 yrs) he did what most intact dogs do. Mark everything and generally have more energy than they need. He was training to pull light weight and doing very well. Long story short now we have a small saint (for his age) that has been neutered for 6 months. He still loves to pull and thats great, the bad part is he still loves to mark. Sometimes walk's are a real pain. Wouldnt trade him for anything though.
He never was agressive to humans at all. He was verbally agressive to other stud dogs but only when provoked, and he still is but only to studs and only when provoked.
He did stop humping thigs though so thats good. lol

[Krista I]

Can someone please tell me what age is best to get a saint neutered???  thanks

[annaaul]

4-6 months

[schelmischekitty]

don't know about saints, but i have an akita who is about 140, we got him done at about 6 months old, i think, and he did great.  no problems with healing, and he's actually like what...  4 or 5 inches over the standard, and a lot heavier, even though he's not fat by any means.  he is a little fluffy though.  it didn't stunt his growth or anything at all.  our dane is now 8 months and he's still intact.  we don't have any problems with him behaviorally (being territorial, marking, etc) and it's not causing any problems, so because he is having trouble gaining weight, we're waiting a little bit because i don't want him to not eat for a few days like some dogs can do after neutering, IMO i think it'd do diesel more harm than good right now.