Author Topic: Backyard Breeders  (Read 28069 times)

Offline Saint and Mal mom

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Backyard Breeders
« on: August 02, 2006, 04:16:31 pm »
I have some questions about backyard breeders. I'd heard the term only occasionally before I came to BPO, but not as much as I do now. So I want to know, what exactly is a back yard breeder and who determines when someone is or not? What exactly do they do that is so bad? I'm not trying to stick up for them or anything. I'm sincerely asking. I know what things I think good breeders should do. Such as worm their pups and give them shots until they go to new homes. Make sure they are healthy by taking them to the vet for a checkup. Make sure they go to good homes and keep in contact with them after selling the pup to them. And take care of the puppies and parents of the pups. And if they can't find homes for the pups or can't care for them, then of course they shouldn't breed their dogs. If a breeder doesn't do that, then yes, I agree that they're not a good breeder. But other than that, what defines a "backyard breeder" exactly?
Marissa

Zoey- Alaskan Malamute, 4 years
Dolly, CGC- Saint Bernard, 4 years
Foster mom to Clarence- Basset Hound, 5 years

"To be loved by...any animal should fill us with awe-for we have not deserved it."

Offline Aner

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2006, 04:19:41 pm »
My definition is someone who really likes their own dog, and mates it without extensive genetic research, proper testing, or considerations of improving the breed as a whole.  The pups are probably very loved, and raised at home, and great homes are often found for them, but these breedings are just done for fun, or to try to earn a little money.

Gypsy Jazmine

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2006, 05:55:58 pm »
Question open to opinion: Sam was not properly bred...No health certs (though I had access to his lines vet records) no OFA...no contract...His parents were working dogs on a sheep farm & his breeder bred sporadically (Sam's dam had 4 litters in 7 yrs.) to keep herself in good guardians to protect her investment of sheep & sold the pups she didn't need almost specifically as gaurdians...Sa m was pretty much the exception to the rule...Sam's breeder bred two good gaurdian dogs to get good gaurdian dogs...Does this make her a byb or are all byb's not created equal? :-\

Offline navarre1316

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2006, 06:03:30 pm »
My GSD, Navarre was from a byb.  As I was taking him to the car, after I had given her the money and she had told me that she had already sold a couple other pups the week before, I asked when his b'day was....he was 2 days shy of 5 weeks.  Now if she didn't already have my cash and was pretty much in her house I probably would have given him back.  I personally don't want a pup until it's at least 8 weeks old.  He was covered with more fleas than my vet had ever seen, he ended up a week later with a bladder infection.  I had some aggression problems with him for the first few years (luckily he turned into a great boy)!  He had epilepsy, HD and arthritis in 3 vertebrea to the extent that it looked like an OLD dogs x-rays and he was 5.  I had some digestion/intestinal problems with him that weren't totally figured out.  And he died at 6.  Ultimately he bloated, but I think that was secondary to something because he was acting like he wasn't feeling to great that week.  I couldn't even tell you how much of my credit cards are from him but I will definitely pay the price for my next GSD.  This is not to say that the breeders meant any harm but those two had no business being bred.  If you get a pup from a byb it's definitely buyer beware.  I won't do it again.  My next dog will be another rescue and you walk into that with the same unknowing but at least I'm helping an unwanted pet.  My next GSD however....... .
God placed me on this earth to accomplish certain tasks...I'm so far behind I'll never die!!

Navarre: GSD 9/13/99-5/14/06 patiently waiting
Issabeaux: GSD 1/27/07
Daphne: Boxer
Stone: Siamese mix

cricket36580

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2006, 02:23:01 am »
Working dogs are in a whole different class than show dogs.  Many breeds have a line for conformation and a line for work...Which is where I jump in and say there is no such thing as an unbiased 3rd party.  I don't know about where "you" are from, but here it's political and clique-ish.  If you know the right people, you get somewhere.  The AKC isn't the be all and end all.  Yes, I want to show at some point but that doesn't mean that the AKC isn't what it is.  At this point in time, it's a money machine.  Pure and simple.  Ok, I'll cut that rant a little short. 

Back to working dogs.  I don't know ANY breeders of working dogs that wouldn't take a pup back or exchange it or whatever.  They are extremely proud of their lines.  Their livelyhood is off of their stock and those dogs are a part of that.  They'll put their working dogs up against ANY AKC show pup.  It's true they rarely have a contract...bec ause they usually know the people the pups are going to.  I realize only 15% of dogs are born in working environments but that's still a whole lot more than a "few".

Offline NoDogNow

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2006, 09:26:44 am »
Home breeders may or may NOT be involved with registered dogs.

Some of the best AKC registry breeders are home breeders who spend thousands of dollars on pre-breed testing, on puppy exams, on researching pedigrees and interviewing potential studs or dams, spend even more thousands of hours socializing puppies in their kitchens, living, bed and bathrooms and who practically FBI background check potential puppy parents.  Some other home breeders are in love with dogs that no registry recognizes, but they put the same love and concern into their dogs and puppies as any registry recognized breeder. This is usually how a rare or disappearing breed is saved--by a few home breeders who love their dogs too much to lose them forever.

Backyard breeders get that name because their dogs are yard bred and yard raised, and puppies are generally not well secondarily socialized with people, making them problematic from the start; some dogs never fully get over their lack of early socialization.

And I'll take on the AKC rant, since I walked past the puppies in the window last night and am still steaming mad about the "AKC registered" signs on the glass in front of those little faces!!!!!  >:(  >:(  >:(

BYB's and puppy mills are ABLE to make huge profits off dogs because all AKC requires to register a litter is the name and address of the owners of the Dam and Sire, a few other boxes checked on a 1 page form, and a Visa or Mastercard number.  That's it.  That's all AKC asks for, and if you doubt me, go to the AKC site, and look at the downloadable form for registering a litter. It's appalling. (Yes, I am the local president of "AKC Critics Not Anonymous", I'm afraid. I think AKC's tolerance tars a lot of truly great home breeders with the BYB brush. It's why you've even asked this question!)

Neither does AKC require any record of health certifications from new owners who are transferring the regsitration of their dogs after purchase from the breeder.  It's supposedly a BREEDING REGISTRY, mind you--you'd think health certs would be critical, but they couldn't care less if you poked them with a cattle prod.  >:(  >:(  >:(

They put on a public face ::) of 'presuming the honor' of every breeder--pretending everyone who uses the AKC registry is an honest dog lover who is doing all the recommended testing, all the recommended vet checks and all the recommended client screening before placing puppies in homes.  AKC knows that this presumption is a big fat lie, but doing anything to change the status quo would cost them big bucks.

A BYB or a puppy miller breeds 'pure' dogs that have these easily obtained AKC registration numbers, and sends in a litter form with a Visa number.  Per their own rules, AKC doesn't require DNA profiling for males until they sire more than 7 litters a year--which means that a byb with 3 females and a male can have puppies ready to sell every 2 months, year round, forever, without AKC even questioning them. You do the math if they keep some of their puppies and line breed!!!  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(



Maybe I need to just stay out of The Beverly Center until they finish re-installing the other escalator so I don't have to walk past the Puppy Jail on my way to buy Body Shop Vitamin C night creme and grapeseed body butter.  ::)
Sheryl, Dogless and sad

Offline Saint and Mal mom

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2006, 03:26:33 pm »
See, I'm asking because I've been trying to figure out if both my girls came from what would be called a backyard breeder. Here's the facts. I bought Zoey dirt cheap at 5 weeks old. I first of all think that's too young, but she was fully weaned so I didn't question it. Zoey's dad was AKC registered, mom was CKC. Zoey didn't come with any papers or guarantees. She came with some food they'd been feeding her, vet info about her weight, complete worming schedule and shots that she'd been give. So I have no doubt that they took care of her, but they have never attempted to make contact with us, because they didn't ask for names or anything when we got her.

Dolly, on the other hand is different. Her mom and dad were registered with CKC. Dolly came with papers to register her with for CKC. She had been given her shots, wormings, and flea and tick control on schedule. Already had her rabies shot. Got her cheap, but not as cheap as Zoey. The breeder owned her mom but not her dad. And she was 5 months old when we got her. She came with a 1 year guarantee that said, as was mentioned before, if something was wrong with her, we could give her back and replace her with a dog of the same value from them. They showed me what brushes to use for grooming, including giving me a sheet with info on grooming Saints, what to feed them, and she gave me a Puppy Care Kit made by Hills- Science Diet company with a record book in it for all Dolly's vet records. However, as good as they sound, I have tried to contact them just to give them good updates on Dolly as she's grown over the year and they have not responded once.

What do you guys think
Marissa

Zoey- Alaskan Malamute, 4 years
Dolly, CGC- Saint Bernard, 4 years
Foster mom to Clarence- Basset Hound, 5 years

"To be loved by...any animal should fill us with awe-for we have not deserved it."

Lyn

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2006, 03:13:15 am »
Bubba and Lola both came from BYB's. IMO they are 2 classes of BYB's. Those who health test (very few and far between) and those were are in it to make a quick buck.

Bubba's parents did have all heath testing done, but were never shown like they were suppose to be. I never bothered filling out the CKC papers to register him but he is registerable. I still worry about his hips because I'm a paranoid tool. :P Well that and I never saw his pedigree so I have no idea if HD runs in his lines.

Now Lola.. Her parents have NO health testing, She had NO shots.. nothing. When I finally got ahold of the 'breeder' I was just told that both parents have no hip problems. ::)I guess I'll have to cross my fingers that as she grows she doesn't develop any ortho problems. ::) Even vet x-rays for hips would have been better than nothing. She's in not registerable either as far as I know. I'm assuming if they were that she would have registered the entire litter. The no health testing is a major thumbs down for me though. But I knew when I took her home that she came from a BYB, so I wasn't expecting much in that regard. One good thing thought is that she does truly care where the pups went and has been in contact with me since. But if something was to crop up health wise I doubt she'd be offering to pay for it.

The CKC isn't any better than the AKC. I see BYB ads all the time for CKC registered pups. :(
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 03:16:20 am by Lyn »

Offline Boyle

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2006, 03:34:31 am »

The CKC isn't any better than the AKC. I see BYB ads all the time for CKC registered pups. :(

There are two different CKCs.  The first is the Canadian Kennel Club which is much like the AKC - long history of registering dogs and totally legit.   

When a Miller or BYB lists CKC it is usually in reference to the Continental Kennel Club.  The Continental Kennel Club will, from what I have heard and read, register anything with fur and 4 legs. 

I just was looking at the ContKC site and came across the breed below. What The h*ll???  Why would anyone breed a Peke and a French Bulldog then call it an "american" herding dog??? 

American Bullnese
   
Height: 6-12 Inches
Group: Herding
Weight: 12 - 25 Pounds
Coat: Thick, Soft, Dense, And Short
Color: Any Color Is Acceptable
 
   
Description: Head: Massive and square. Eyes: Oval, large, set wide apart and hazel or amber in color. Ears: Small, dropping back and never cropped. Muzzle: Wide and well tapered. Nose: Black and self-colored according to coat. Bite: Undershot. Neck: Muscular, powerful, and slightly arched. Chest: Deep and broad, with well-sprung ribs. Body: Back straight, short and sloping. Legs: Forelegs are short, powerful, muscular and slightly bowed. Hind legs are strongly muscled and have hocks well bent. Feet: Strong, with toes well arched and close together. Tail: Strong at base, slightly curled, covered with short hair and not reaching below hocks. Movement: Strong and driving, yet very agile. Temperament: Gentle with good pet qualities.

*The American Bullnese was developed by Bobby Rice of Florida involving the French Bulldog and Pekingese.

Lyn

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2006, 03:41:44 am »
I did mean the Canadian Kennel Club.

I forgot all about the Continental Kennel Club. There is a UKC too I believe which is another crap registery.

Gypsy Jazmine

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2006, 03:47:34 am »

The CKC isn't any better than the AKC. I see BYB ads all the time for CKC registered pups. :(

.   

  The Continental Kennel Club will, from what I have heard and read, register anything with fur and 4 legs. 



I have heard that CKC referred to as the "close enough kennel club"...The idiot down the street has bred her "Chihuahua" 4 times already & she is 2 yrs. old. >:( Her female Chi wasn't papered & all she had to do to get her registered with the CKC is have her vet say that "she looks like a Chihuahua" (the idiots words not mine") So she ahs a AKC registered stud & a CKC registered bitch now & is selling the puppies for $400-$600 each...Also, when the idiot gets her "perfect long haired little girl" out of her bitch she is getting rid of the stud who has lived with them since he was 6 weeks old...At least they won't be breeding the bitch anymore...hope fully. :(

Offline daisy

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2006, 04:15:26 am »
I am glad this thread has been started as it has answered a lot of questions for me.
So is someone advertising in the local paper most always a BYB? Do legit breeders ever advertise there? How do you find someone who is not a byb?
And really what is a going rate for a purebred dog from a reliable breeder? I ahve seen Great Danes and Saints in my paper for $500. I have also seen Great Pyrenees for $250. Aren't the better breeders going to charge more?

Gypsy Jazmine

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2006, 04:54:31 am »
I am glad this thread has been started as it has answered a lot of questions for me.
 Aren't the better breeders going to charge more?

Not necessarily... Petstores get an arm & a leg for poorly bred puppy mill puppies because it is their business to make $...It is not about the love of the breed whatsoever!...Same as some byb's...I have an idiot up the street breeding the he** outof her CKC registered Chihuahua bitch & charging up to $600.00 for the pups...Why?...Because people will pay it thinking they are getting a good dog because of the price...The "the more I pay the better I am getting mentality" ::) ...Reputable breeders are not breeding to make alot of $...They are breeding for the love of the breed & to better their beloved breed...You can buy a properly bred, pup with parents that are OFA'd & health & temperment gaurunteed from a reputable breeder for less than I have seen byb's & petstores selling their "cash cows" for far more than some properly bred pups I've seen...The price of a properly bred dog can depend on the lines too...Just my observations & experience. :)

Offline Boyle

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2006, 05:16:18 am »
I am glad this thread has been started as it has answered a lot of questions for me.
So is someone advertising in the local paper most always a BYB? Do legit breeders ever advertise there? How do you find someone who is not a byb?
And really what is a going rate for a purebred dog from a reliable breeder? I ahve seen Great Danes and Saints in my paper for $500. I have also seen Great Pyrenees for $250. Aren't the better breeders going to charge more?


I am making a generalization here because there are always some exceptions to the rules. 

The best way to find a breeder is to start with the national breed club of the type of dog that interests you.  Quality breeders want to insure that there pups are going to great homes and will make the prospective owner jump through hoops and answer every question under the sun before they commit to handing over a dog.  Better breeders usually charge much more because of the testing, showing, etc.  How much you will pay can also depend on the breed of dog sometimes, the pedigree of the pup, and whether you are getting pet or show quality. 

Make sure you are proactive when looking for a puppy. Here is a link to a list of questions to ask the breeder:

http://www.bigpawsonly.com/index.php/topic,10040.0.html

Gypsy Jazmine

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Re: Backyard Breeders
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2006, 06:36:53 am »
I am glad this thread has been started as it has answered a lot of questions for me.
So is someone advertising in the local paper most always a BYB? Do legit breeders ever advertise there? How do you find someone who is not a byb?
And really what is a going rate for a purebred dog from a reliable breeder? I ahve seen Great Danes and Saints in my paper for $500. I have also seen Great Pyrenees for $250. Aren't the better breeders going to charge more?


I am making a generalization here because there are always some exceptions to the rules. 

  Better breeders usually charge much more because of the testing, showing, etc.  How much you will pay can also depend on the breed of dog sometimes, the pedigree of the pup, and whether you are getting pet or show quality. 


Absolutly the cost of the pup can depend on all of that!...I had those thoughts running around in my head when I posted but somehow they didn't get typed...happen s all the time! :-\...lol!...As you said it is a generalization you are making & there are exceptions to the rule..."Better breeders usually charge more"...I've seen far too many outrageously priced pups produced to make money...It is true that all the health testing & certs are going to make for a higher priced puppy as it should be as you are not only buying a puppy..you are buying a quality puppy & the piece of mind that goes with it which is, imo, priceless!! ;D ...I guess the point I am trying to make is there are resposible, reputable breeders who do everything they should do in breeding quality puppies that don't have as much overhead as some so you can buy a quality pup for alot less than some people would think. :)