Author Topic: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'  (Read 7391 times)

Offline MSF

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Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« on: August 27, 2006, 07:02:05 pm »
After reading about the pup a person on here is fostering
that wobbles, and other post, and seeing what I have personally seen in my life.

I know all rescues, public and private and bursting at the seams and turning animals away.
A lot of us spend mucho bucks $$$$$ on animals with defects and ilnnesses.

Wouldn't all that money be better spent on huge spay and neuter programs?
Now don't get me wrong, I have a deaf dane with possible wobblers here I love and will most likely be spending much time and $$$$ on to give him the best quality of life I can.
I have spoken with his breeder and they don't breed the 2 harls they have due to 2 deaf puppies in the litter.
(Mozart and a female)
The man said he didn't know what Wobblers, OCD or HOD was.
He bred, he showed and doesn't know what these are !!!!!!

But getting back to the main subject.
Would it at times, not be much better to just put them down from the begining? Where does one draw the line?
I'm looking to hear folks opinions and views.
I see so much money being spent on animals, see so many who won't get off their lazy butts to get their animals fixed.
It breaks my heart. I know there are many of us who will take in these special needs animals but there is more of them that there are of us.
There was a lady on a pc group advertizing 3 litters of kittens and I called and offered to pay for the momma cats spayings and she declined.
However I am trying to pay for two spayings a month as my part in helping the over population. Sadly that is just 24 a year. And the average person can't afford that.
I am also personally starting a spay and neuter project in my own state.
But getting back to the main point.
1) Are these dollars spent on fixing special needs animals better spent on spaying and neutering?
2) Where does one draw the line on deciding to put an animal down or adopt it out?
Forgive my ramblings, however this subject hits me in the heart.

Gypsy Jazmine

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2006, 08:00:57 pm »
Good point & a hard call for sure & I mean that...but I have 4 "unadoptables" right here right now who'd much prefer that I spend my $ & efforts on saving them than if I bow out to a higher cause ;) :)...B.t.w., they are not "unadoptable" they are just alot of work to get ready to home...a little different than what you are speaking of but all the same to me...& to them. ;D

edited to add that I am a huge spay & neuter advocate...So, besides my grass roots efforts (meaning I do it myself...my own money & time) I talk to anyone who will listen about how important it is to spay & neuter...If I can reach just one person that makes a difference...& of coarse anyone I home with must fix their fur friend or indirectly they end back up at my doorstep. :(
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 01:55:23 am by Gypsy Jazmine »

GR8DAME

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2006, 03:06:05 am »
I support spay and nueter programs. I think that they are wonderful, and I believe that they educate the people that are sitting on the fence whether to alter their dogs or not. What they don't do is have any effect on those that had no intention of altering their dogs in the first place.
Although we all know reputible breeders can and occaisionally do have puppies/animals with special needs and health issues, the bulk of these animals are created by BYB and Mills. They will not spay or nueter EVER, that would defeat the purpose of churning out animals like a factory.
As for the question of the money spent on these special needs animals, that is a personal decision on the part of the individual or rescue involved. I would not presume to decide if one candidate was more "worthy" of being saved than another, any more than I would for someone with a special needs child.
Stella
Modified to say, JMHO, and the opinions expressed here are in no way meant to offend.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 03:07:04 am by GR8DAME »

Offline patrick

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2006, 04:05:12 am »
I am not a fan of the 'life at any cost' philosophy.  There are so many wonderful, healthy dogs that are euthanized cause of lack of homes I question the ultimate good if 5 dogs are put down for every special needs dog that is kept.  It is so hard to take a life but some of these special needs dogs have horrible lives as they age due to arthritis or complications of whatever their underlying problems are  I think it is much kinder to put an animal down that is paralysed for example or that has daily seizures or has crippling orthopedic problems.  With the overwhelming problem of unwanted dogs the money is better spent on spay neuter and rescuing healthy dogs that have just run out of time. 

Offline BlackGreatF

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2006, 04:31:47 am »
I totally believe that the MEN in this society says 'NO' to chopping their pet's manhood is because (man I have heard this sooo many times) they wouldn't do it to themselves, so why should they do it to their pets.
Grrr

Offline sobe

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2006, 09:08:20 am »
This is a good topic for discussion !
I am one of those who will rescue the underdog and nurse babies back to life or help give old dogs love they've never experienced or long ago lost before it's time for them to cross over. To me, euthanasia is something that I would only use as last resort. I think where the problem lies is in other areas.
There are too many BYB's and ooops litters around, mostly because people don't bat an eye in paying $500 + for a cute little pup. I think this is one of the first problems that needs to be addressed and stopped. Don't know how it can be stopped, but IF people stop paying big amounts for pups then there will be no more money to be made that way.That will help eliminate the BYB's.

I think all newspapers should stop accepting ads for litters,unless the monies made from those litters go straight into rescue. Once again, nothing gained from the 'birthing' experience except that the humans are out money.

For those who'd like to 'experience' having litters, there are enough rescue animals that need foster homes or , better yet, let's have videos for them to watch.

Animals need to be seen as part of the family and not possessions that can be tossed when one tires of them or when they start costing money. There are too many shelters that are filled to the rafters with unwanted pets. Most shelters are left with having to put these animals down in a very inhumane fashion.

I believe that those who are already here should be loved and cared for. To me, a not so perfect animal has the same right to be loved and properly cared for as a healthy one. I believe in quality of life and think that can be given to all of them. There are enough corporations who are looking for tax breaks, why not make it VERY attractive to them to fund treating animals, getting all animals spayed and neutered, providing food and good shelters and sanctuaries for those who are not fortunate enough to find homes.

I think that spaying and neutering should become mandatory and be free of charge for those who can't afford it. ( once again, big corporations can sponsor programs like that ).

I think that people who allow their pets to have litters should be fined BIG time. And I mean BIG time.
If you want to breed, then you should be made to get a license and go through classes so you know what you are doing. 

Oh and finally, those celebrities who parade their pup in front of the camera , should be made to donate a substantial amount to local rescues. Part of why there are too many BYB's and too many pups can be sold for disgusting amounts is because everyone wants a doggie just like so and so.


Nicole

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2006, 10:25:55 am »
Wow, this truly is a good topic, if we can all keep it friendly. (Which everyone is doing so far! YAY!  ;D)

Anyway...as one who has worked on the front-lines of rescue...both on the fostering end and in shelters...I must say that I am not opposed to a humane death. And, honestly, its my spiritual beliefs that allow me to accept that. Its complicated, and I won't preach, but I don't believe that life ends with the death of the physical body...sooooo. ..in that vein, I'm OK with a humane euthanasia.

NOT THAT I LIKE IT...I just don't feel as if it is the END for those guys.

Honestly, I've fostered SO MANY dogs with behavior problems that in some ways I have changed my mind about breeders. By that I mean GOOD breeders. I'm still opposed to bringing more animals into the world. However, I have developed a bit more understanding of those people that wish to purchase a pup of sound temperment. I do not think that reputable breeding is the be all and end all of sound temperment, nor do I think that anyone should be profiting off of lives, or that the AKC should be in the business of giving people false confidence in their pup...another subject, I'm sorry, I digress. In any case, having been foster mom to NUMEROUS "problem dogs" I can see why people seek breeders out.

HOWEVER, several of the "problem dogs" I mention have been pure bred dogs. Of questionable origin, I admit. However, many of your average dog buyers do not understand the difference between BYB, Pet store puppies, puppy mills and reputable breeders. In my opinion, the solution lies in education. And education like a MOTHER F'er. Educate, educate, educate. Provide humane education in our elementary schools, so that kids NEVER grow up viewing animals as objects or posessions. Provide humane education to high school and middle school students that are so capable of caring for animals. Make volunteer work in animal shelters worth credit in high schools and colleges. Someone else said require permits for breeding along with classes so you know what you are getting into, and what the costs of your decisions are. I am ALL about education.

People in rescue need to stop being so judgemental of people that find themselves in situations that make them unable to care for their dogs. HELP THEM. TEACH THEM. SHOW THEM AN ALTERNATIVE. But do NOT judge. Most of us are only a thin line away from those people that find themselves in iffy situations. Many people have the perception that those in rescue would rather euthanize than give a dog to a good home...they think we have super high standards and want super-human people to provide homes...stop this! Just because someone feeds Ol' Roy does not mean that they are incapable of love, guidance and discipline.

I know that this is a rant. But I think that we're all responsible in some way for pet overpopulation . If its because we breed, or because we turn away people that would be "pretty good" pet owners, or because we fail to educate whenever we can (in a NON JUDGEMENTAL manner)...we all have the obligation to advocate for animals whenever and wherever we can.

I guess I didn't really speak to the original topic...do some people put too much into "unadoptables" at the expense of good pets? Well...yes, I think so. Every life has a value...howeve r...like I said before; I don't think that death of the body means the end of that life. So, whatever. Do what you can. But yeah, trying to re-home the deaf, 3-legged HW positive beagle might not be the most productive effort. In the long run, if that deaf, 3-legged HW positive beagle is held lovingly as he passes to the next phase, is that so bad? The money, time and emotional exhaustion spent on trying to rehome that guy could have gone a LOT farther to rehome a more "adoptable" dog, or trying to educate, help people deal with the behavior problems that might lead them to bring their dog to the shelter, or help people find pet-friendly housing so that they don't have to bring their pet to the shelter when they move.

Just my opinion. Sorry so freaking long.

Offline gabeshouse

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2006, 11:24:56 am »
I would have to beleive that yes, more healthy "adoptable" pets could be saved if rescues focused more on placing healthy pets to good families. The one flaw in my opinion is that I don't volunteer my time to a rescue. It wasn't until I attempted to adopt from a rescue that I learned how many people I know have gotten a pet through rescues or shelters. I guess after being around a shelter or rescue a person soon realizes that the number of animals they can truly help is very limited. Considering that, I can see where the reward of helping a "problem" animal would give a person the boost needed to get past the ones that couldn't be saved.

Offline Saint and Mal mom

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2006, 11:42:01 am »
This is simply my opinion and I'm sorry if I offend anyone. If I do, pm me and I will modify this post if needed so as to be honest but tactful.

I am in favor of spaying and neutering. HOWEVER, I don't think that those who are not responsible enough or do not have the time or the money to see to it that it is done to their pet should have a pet to begin with. Therefore, I am not in favor of someone else paying for another person's pet surgery to spay or neauter their pet. That is part of the deal of getting an animal. If you cannot afford what comes along with it, especially something so important as population control!, don't get a pet. Period. It's like getting a puppy but not being able to afford to feed it. Then you shouldn't have a dog. In other words, I will not give away my own money to help someone else spay or neuter their pet. But low-cost spay/neuter clinics are good because they help low-income pet owners be able to afford this surgery! I think that then is the solution. To establish more low-cost clinics. But don't bet on me giving any money to Freddy down the street because he can't afford to get Spot fixed. It's not going to happen. But I know that those who do help pay for these surgeries are doing it to be kind and helpful. But I don't think (just my opinion, remember!) it's the right thing to do.

Secondly, I have to say that I will draw the line probably a lot faster than most BPO members on here about what I will and won't pay for for my animals. I highly doubt I will ever be in the position income-wise to be able to afford a surgery for my pet if it amounted to over $600. And it's not that I don't love them. It's that I will not put myself in COMPLETE debt (hey, I already am in debt just paying for food!) for an animal. I love them, but they are still just animals. So do I think adoption groups should spend $15,000 to operate on a dog's spine because he's paralyzed and needs a leg amputated and is deaf and diabetic and needs insulin and has to have cataracts removed and get radiation for cancer...and on...and on...and on...????? No. N..O.. There are MILLIONS of healthy dogs out there. They make wonderful pets. Not that this one that has so many problems can't be a good pet too...but is it really worth it? I personally do not think so. Some of you out there are braver than me. I wouldn't adopt a dog personally if it were diabetic or needed constant medication to control a disease or was blind even. It's just not for me. I might adopt a deaf dog. Maybe. But do I think others are wrong for doing it? No, I probably just don't understand why. But it's their choice. But when there are so many perfectly healthy pets out there that need adopting and help, don't ask me to donate money to a problem-riddled dog (which may never even get adopted because of so many problems) who is taking up the kennel-space for a dog on the streets who needs care.

As I said, this is all just my opinion. Sorry if I offend anyone.
Marissa

Zoey- Alaskan Malamute, 4 years
Dolly, CGC- Saint Bernard, 4 years
Foster mom to Clarence- Basset Hound, 5 years

"To be loved by...any animal should fill us with awe-for we have not deserved it."

bigdogs@5501

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2006, 11:43:32 am »
This is a topic that has really hit me hard. My daughter works at a rescue shelter and we personally have rescued 9 dogs over the last 16 years ( yes the 16 year old is still alive) Several of these rescues are pure breed dogs. I looked in the paper yesterday for our large metropolitan area that we are closest to, and got disgusted at all of the ads for the people who have the "designer" pups or the people who specialize in several different breeds. It is also frustrating to go to a flea market and see the same pups month after month in a cage that is gradually getting too small because the pups have not been sold. I live in the country and for some reason the attitude out here never includes the thought of spaying or neutering ones dog or cat. I just passed a sign on the road advertising free puppies. My crazy neighbors have cats that are multiplying at an alarming rate- and as often as I can, I am catching them, getting them spayed or neutered and bringing them back.These are also the neighbors that have thier poor dogs tied out in the yard - no matter what the weather. I think that I am losing the battle. I dont know what the solution is - but I also hate the thought of a animal being put to sleep because no one cared in the first place. I would hate to never be able to ever own a dog in the future because all dogs were required to be spayed or neutered- but then look at Petfinder and it is depressing. I think that there were a total of 500 + Pyrenees that needed a home and over 900 Great Danes. The numbers are staggering.

Offline MagicM3

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 06:07:27 pm »
Well I guess I will give my opinion, it is sad,that so many unwanted pets are put to death each and every day,
People in rescue work hard to do the best they can,
as far as unadoptable goes,I don't think that rescue organizations,should spend $$ on long term illnesses,or complicated medical conditions, since they need to think of them all.
That being said those *indiviuals* who are willing to step in and care for a so called *unadoptable* all the power to them,and bless them too.It may be what they need to do in their life at that time,and even prepare them for other challenges they know nothing of yet.

Lets face it we all spend $$ on our fur kids when skin kids in this counrty go hungry every nite.

So everything is relative and depends on the perseption you are looking from.

Being the parent of a special needs son,I have heard the same things said about people like him that I am hearing on this thread.

Life is not perfect and we must all make our way.I am not offended by anything I have read , I believe that everyone is intitled to their own opinion.

Dogs especially have been like God's angels here on this earth in my life,and they all are here for a purpose or reason.

Just like the rest of us.

Tricia and the fur kids.

Gypsy Jazmine

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2006, 06:13:54 pm »
Well I guess I will give my opinion, it is sad,that so many unwanted pets are put to death each and every day,
People in rescue work hard to do the best they can,
as far as unadoptable goes,I don't think that rescue organizations,should spend $$ on long term illnesses,or complicated medical conditions, since they need to think of them all.
That being said those *indiviuals* who are willing to step in and care for a so called *unadoptable* all the power to them,and bless them too.It may be what they need to do in their life at that time,and even prepare them for other challenges they know nothing of yet.

Lets face it we all spend $$ on our fur kids when skin kids in this counrty go hungry every nite.

So everything is relative and depends on the perseption you are looking from.

Being the parent of a special needs son,I have heard the same things said about people like him that I am hearing on this thread.

Life is not perfect and we must all make our way.I am not offended by anything I have read , I believe that everyone is intitled to their own opinion.

Dogs especially have been like God's angels here on this earth in my life,and they all are here for a purpose or reason.

Just like the rest of us.

Tricia and the fur kids.
Very well said Tricia!
I take in who crosses my doorstep & do all I can to save them...Yes, I watch out for them but so many come to me...Who am I to say "no"...God has a devine plan & I am just following His orders.  :)

Offline galxe

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2006, 05:36:11 pm »
What a lovely group of well-thought out responses. (Did I really just say "lovely"? I feel like my grandmother...)

I can really see both sides of the issue in this case. Whenever I hear of a rescue providing funds for a $2000 life-saving surgery I'm torn between "Great! A new opportunity!" and "Couldn't that money have been used to help 15 more dogs?" It's so hard to say where the line is, $200, $500, $1000, $5000? But then I also think, for many of us, if that were our dog, we'd spend whatever money we had readily available to us to make things right. And when I think of it from that side, I can only hope that someone out there somewhere feels the same way about Orphan Annie rescue dog.
  I wish that I could make some definitive judgment on the issue. Spending X amount is too much or something along those lines. But I can't I guess the best that I can say is to use the discernment that God has given us. We have to look at the ends v. means argument- will this costly treatment make life considerably better for this animal? Or is it postponing the inevitable? In the case of the latter, atleast in a rescue situation, providing a dog with love and a humane euthanasia may be the right opportunity. But then in life there are those animals that pull at your heartstrings, and you don't know why.  You feel the need to pursue treatment and rescue for an animal beyond what normally seems "rational". And though I am not an irrational person, I'm also not one to deny what my heart is telling me.

GR8DAME

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2006, 02:54:08 am »
I recieved this in an email, as I am sure others here have. It struck me as appropriate.
   

   A farmer had some puppies he needed to sell. He painted a sign advertising the 4 pups. And set about nailing it to a post on the edge of his yard. As he was driving the last nail into the post, he felt a tug on his overalls. He looked down into the eyes of little boy.
    "Mister," he said, "I want to buy one of your puppies."
   "Well," said the farmer, as he  rubbed the sweat off the back of his neck, "These puppies come from fine parents and cost a good deal of money."
The boy dropped his head for a moment. Then reaching deep into his pocket, he pulled out a handful of change and held it up to the farmer.
"I've got thirty-nine cents. Is that enough to take a  look?"
"Sure," said the farmer. And with that he let out a  whistle. "Here, Dolly!" he called. Out from the doghouse and down the ramp ran Dolly followed by four little balls of fur.

   The little boy pressed his face against the chain link fence. His eyes danced with delight.As the dogs made their way to the fence,the little boy noticed something else   stirring inside the doghouse.
Slowly another little ball appeared, this one noticeably smaller. Down the ramp it slid. Then in a somewhat awkward manner, the little pup began hobbling toward the others, doing its best to catch up....
"I want that one," the little boy said, pointing to the runt. The farmer knelt down at the boy's side and said, "Son, you don't want that puppy.  He will never be able to run and  play with you like these other dogs would."
   With that the little boy stepped back from the fence, reached down, and began rolling up one leg of his trousers.
    In doing so he revealed a steel brace running down both sides of his leg attaching itself to a specially made shoe.
   Looking back up at the farmer, he said, "You see sir, I don't run too well myself, and he will need   someone who understands."
   With tears in his eyes, farmer reached down and picked up the little pup.
Hold ing it carefully handed it to the little boy.
   "How much?" asked the little boy.  "No  charge,"  answered the farmer, "There's no charge for love." 

Stella
 
 
 

 

Offline MSF

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Re: Playing devils advocate, the so called 'unadoptable'
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2006, 11:28:22 am »
Stella  ((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))
Your post was the answer to my post, my heart and my mind.
Thank you for that WONDERFUL post.  :)

Everyone else, thank you so much for stating your views
and opinions in a very mature manor.
No one got uptight, no one got offended (that I know of) and
no one got nasty.

Hmmmmmmm BPO's seems to be a really cool message board.
Kudos to all of you for handling yourselves in such a respectful and mature manor. ;)