Author Topic: Prong collars for newfs?  (Read 12488 times)

Offline ptkennel

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Prong collars for newfs?
« on: August 31, 2006, 05:32:22 pm »
I was recently told i should get a prong collar to train my newf.  We went to an obedience class on Wed. and my newf, Joy was not responsive to the 1/2 choke i was using.  I want to show her (conformation) in October.  I was wondering what I should do.  Any thoughts?
Joy, Newfoundland
Gabi, Newfoundland
Amy, Irish Wolfhound
Sara, Irish Wolfhound
Gintaro, Irish Wolfhound (from Poland)
Desa, our Borzoi
4 Irish Wolfhound puppies, Saturn, Gemini, Delta and Mercury
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Offline sarnewfie

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2006, 12:47:28 am »
you need to work on getting her attention on you, voice and talking and lots of sits and about turns help.
toys and treats work to, but, you need to go to conformation class, not obedience or you will confuse your dog.
becouse this is a puppy and very young? the sessions for training be several five minute ones.
working on attention.
i would try to find a real good trainer for that. and be careful, there are a lot of trainers with very heavy hands out there
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Offline ptkennel

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2006, 02:54:23 am »
sarnewfie, we live in a small town where the nearest city is 2 1/2 hours away. I found this lady in the paper offering classes for obedience, she also teaches conformation.  I know that she is reputable, she is also the president and show chairman of a dog club.  She runs a boarding and grooming facility as well.  Very easy to learn from.  She has offered to teach me before class on some conformation, she didn't have enough interest to teach a group conformation.  Too bad for me, there isn't alot of people showing there dogs out here.  She thinks Joy has alot of potential to learn fast, that is good right?  I have been working on standing and staying with Joy, she works well for treats, drool though, but when you get her in a group with other dogs she is too interested in them to listen to me very well.  We wee working on heeling, and Joy does get that, kinda, she has to be worked with a lot more.
I am thinking that maybe I won't be ready for the show at the end of Sept.  What are your thoughts?  She is going to be 6 months on the 13 Sept.  and still a puppy, are they very forgiving in the ring for pups?
Joy, Newfoundland
Gabi, Newfoundland
Amy, Irish Wolfhound
Sara, Irish Wolfhound
Gintaro, Irish Wolfhound (from Poland)
Desa, our Borzoi
4 Irish Wolfhound puppies, Saturn, Gemini, Delta and Mercury
www.prairietra ilkennel.com

Offline sarnewfie

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2006, 03:43:30 am »
if she is that reputable good!
but, work on attention, by doing that she will learn to listen around distractions, working alone on attention, than in a class is wonderful becouse when her attention is on YOU instead of the other dogs, that is what you want.
reward her with a treat when she looks at your eyes, do this thru the day, day in and day out, time it so that the reward is right when she looks at your eyes.
do not teach obedience just yet, but gaiting and standing, and turning.
if she does teach conformation, i would take advantage even if alone, what i did, was ask the obedience instructor if i could take her class and just do conformation, and, even in my own class i would allow it, i would just tell people to not imitate what the conformation person is doing.
she is young, her attention span is short.
dont make her do things for to long.
end every session on something she does very well.
:)
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Offline ptkennel

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2006, 03:58:26 am »
I will ask her to teach me conformation while the others are doing obedience.  She has pointers, not sure what kind, brown speckle with large brown spots.  Beautiful dogs, smart and they have there championship already, she is going this weekend to get the obedience.  I have no doubt that she can help me but she had suggested prong collars and I was not wanting to use one.  I wanted to teach her with a choke chain like in the ring, is that not right? Will there be collar confusion if I use two collars?
Joy, Newfoundland
Gabi, Newfoundland
Amy, Irish Wolfhound
Sara, Irish Wolfhound
Gintaro, Irish Wolfhound (from Poland)
Desa, our Borzoi
4 Irish Wolfhound puppies, Saturn, Gemini, Delta and Mercury
www.prairietra ilkennel.com

Offline sobe

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2006, 04:47:43 am »
I have such a problem with prong collars, I think they should be banned !

When we trained Moose, we found ( as was said in one of the other replies ) that several 5 minute sessions were better. He lost interest if it was more than that and also lost interest if he was told to do something several times in a row.

I use martingale collars on both my dogs and swear by them. They are fantastic. I got them from a place that donates the money made from the collars to fund medical bills for rescue dogs so I felt great about getting them too.  I would never use something that causes pain in order to teach any dog . Treats and consistency works far better.

( we've had both types of trainers, the hard handed drill sergeant approach and the treats type based approach. I will NEVER use a drill sergeant approach again!! The hard handed one insisted on choke chains, the treats type didn't want to see any choke chains.The second gave us better results, made us feel better about what we were doing and was actually fun AND was positive all the way )

Offline ptkennel

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2006, 05:58:46 am »
It gets so frustrating when you are trying to get their attention and they are trying to go see a dog on the other side of the room, and when a newf wants to go, it is hard to hold her back.  At the first class she pulled so often that i had a blister on my hand after.  OWWEE. I don't agree on the prong collar either, but what works for  the show ring?  I haven't seen anyone with a martinggale in the ring.  Do i use it only for training, will it confuse her to use a mart. and then switch to a choke(show) collar?
I need help obviously, i may be over my head, but i will not quit.
Joy, Newfoundland
Gabi, Newfoundland
Amy, Irish Wolfhound
Sara, Irish Wolfhound
Gintaro, Irish Wolfhound (from Poland)
Desa, our Borzoi
4 Irish Wolfhound puppies, Saturn, Gemini, Delta and Mercury
www.prairietra ilkennel.com

Offline ptkennel

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2006, 06:24:24 am »
I guess I have been using a martinggale collar already, I called it a half choke, looks the same in the catalogues as the martinggale.  It isn't working with my newf.
Joy, Newfoundland
Gabi, Newfoundland
Amy, Irish Wolfhound
Sara, Irish Wolfhound
Gintaro, Irish Wolfhound (from Poland)
Desa, our Borzoi
4 Irish Wolfhound puppies, Saturn, Gemini, Delta and Mercury
www.prairietra ilkennel.com

Offline brandon

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2006, 06:26:11 am »
A prong collar is a training instrument just like a chain, etc is.  I love them and have one for each dog, not all of them wear them , and then not in all circumstances.

If Melissa is walking both newfs somewhere, it's silly to think that she can physically restrain them if something catches their attention, a bunny runs across the road or whatever.  Used properly they are less likely to cause throat injuries than a choke chain, and I would think a simple band collar if your dog is particuallarly hard headed.

I know people will jump in here and say a prong collar is no excuse for proper training, etc, etc.. Dogs do the darndest things sometimes trained or not, the prong collar is insurance policy in my mind.  We don't always need it, but if we're walking at a busy location, I'd rather not see the dogs ran over or Melissa either for that matter.

I don't know where someone would call them cruel?? Don't all of the restraining collars (not the haltis, etc) work on causing the dog discomfort? They want to avoid the discomfort, so they do what they are supposed to.  Martingale, choker, prong, aren't they all the same principle? 

This is my personal belief based on how my dogs react to a choker, band, etc... and on studies I have read (I can find them if you like) that the prong is safer for the dogs throat than the other training collars.

“Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.”

Offline chaos270

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2006, 06:27:43 am »
If she is pulling stop short and change directions with a firm correction on the choke.  It does work, I think you may just not be using the choke to your advantage.  Also remember the short attention span add lots of turns changes of direction while you're practicing heeling...she'll catch on that she needs to pay attention to avoid being stepped on or left behind.  Also as Sarnewfie suggested teach a 'look' command to get attention using treats.  Hold the treat where the puppy can see it then drag their attention to your face and say 'look' so they know to look at you for direction.  Practice at home and gradually work up to areas with more distractions.  Just remember to keep her mind occupied and she's more likely to focus and maybe even excercise her before class to get the edge off so she's not at full energy.

Also you may want to get a big dog leash that has the two handles one close to the collar and another at the end so you can get a better grip on her during class with the closer handle to save your hands.  I think with a little perseverance you'll get her behaving.
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Lacey ~ the aussie 
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Fire ~ Appendix Quarter Horse/Belgian gelding
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Offline ptkennel

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2006, 06:29:34 am »
Brandon i am just wondering if i use that (prong) to train, I can't show her with it on,(not allowed) so what do I use in the ring to get the same effect?
Joy, Newfoundland
Gabi, Newfoundland
Amy, Irish Wolfhound
Sara, Irish Wolfhound
Gintaro, Irish Wolfhound (from Poland)
Desa, our Borzoi
4 Irish Wolfhound puppies, Saturn, Gemini, Delta and Mercury
www.prairietra ilkennel.com

Offline brandon

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2006, 06:33:28 am »
It depends on your dog really.  If you have a dog that is really praise or food motivated, you can use whatever kinda collar and train with positive reinforcement.

If you have a particualrly hard-headed...(Dogs are much more fun than treats) kinda dog like we have, then we used the prong collar to "train" him how to walk on a leash.  Once he/she understands how it works and are trained,  they will walk fine on the show lead.
“Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.”

Offline ptkennel

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2006, 06:36:41 am »
Thanks to you guys for the info.  It is so hard to get all the info i need out in the boonies here where we live.  I am lucky to have found BPO.  I think that I will try my 1/2 choke one more time and if that isn't working I will have no choice but to try the prong.  I am leary though, she is not quite 6 months yet, but is probably pushing 70 lbs, not sure though.  Is that a concern?
Joy, Newfoundland
Gabi, Newfoundland
Amy, Irish Wolfhound
Sara, Irish Wolfhound
Gintaro, Irish Wolfhound (from Poland)
Desa, our Borzoi
4 Irish Wolfhound puppies, Saturn, Gemini, Delta and Mercury
www.prairietra ilkennel.com

Offline lshelley21

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2006, 06:36:49 am »
IN PRAISE OF THE PINCH COLLAR

(with some comments on the various halter devices)

by Pam Green

(copyright 1991)

The pinch collar is a much misunderstood , and therefore misused and underused , tool which can be of genuine value to the dog trainer. I believe that the cause of the misunderstandi ngs lie partly in the appearance of this implement and partly in the names by which it is generally known, but mostly in a lack of thought about the relationship between this implement and that used by that supremest of all dog-trainers , the mamma-bitch.

MY THEORY OF WHY PINCH COLLARS WORK

Most people assume that the pinch collar works as a negative reinforcer or as a punishment because it causes a sensation of pain. Those who can't stand the thought of inflicting pain on their beloved dog therefore refuse to use a pinch collar. Those who see their dog as a willfully disobedient and defiant adversary or those who are angry with the dog, those who have for the moment forgotten their love for their dog, are often too willing to use pain as a motivator and assume the more the better, thus use the pinch collar harder than necessary, often with adverse results. Those who love their dog but recognize that the contrast between pleasant and unpleasant results of the dog's right or wrong response to a given stimulus greatly aid the dog in learning will generally read their dog well enough to use a pinch collar well, even though they believe that it works because it hurts.

It is my belief that the true power of the pinch collar is the similarity in the sensation it makes when popped and released to the sensation made by the mamma-bitch briefly grabbing the whelp by the neck with her teeth. Thus the impact on the dog is through his social psychology by making the statement " I , your mother, don't approve of your behavior", rather than through his self-preservation psychology by causing pain. Since the bitch rarely bites the puppy's neck very hard , it should not be necessary to give more than a moderate pop on the pinch collar, and indeed for the most part I find that a light to moderate "pop" is all that is needed. Only if the dog is quite excited with his attention intensely focused on some object or activity, thus dull to perceiving other sensation, would a stronger jerk be needed in order for the dog to notice it and respond. Thus an appropriately guaged pop will gain the dogs respect for the leadership of his handler and will impress him that the behavior in which he was engaged is disapproved, but it should not make him feel fearful. I hope the recognition that one does not necessarily need to inflict severe pain on the dog will encourage those of you who have heretofore been unwilling to use this useful device to try it --- especially if your training mentor advises you to do so and is willing to supervise your first few attempts.

In line with this "sensation of mamma's teeth" theory, we might also put this quality to work when we give a scruff shake or a muzzle-surrounded-by-hands type of rebuke by including a bit of poking or pinching sensation from our fingernails to simulate the teeth of the bitch. ( Those who bite their nails are out of luck.) Those who use any of the muzzle-constriction halter-like devices sold under various names ("Halti", "Kumalong") are also utilizing a mamma-bitch rebuke and could emphasize this (if needed) by putting a few blunt rubber nubs on the inner surface of the noseband.

(Update : "Kumalong" seems to have dropped by the wayside, but the "Halti" has become popular and the halter formerly known as "Promise" and now known as "Gentle Leader" has become popular. Today everyone advocating the use of halters proclaims that the psychological basis is the communication of social dominence, ie the mamma-bitch message and the pack-leader message, telling the dog to relax and be subordinant and follow the leader's cues.)

THE GHASTLY APPEARANCE OF THE PINCH COLLAR

There's little doubt that the appearance of the pinch collar, looking very barbaric , causes many people to believe it must be an instrument of torture. Those who know better may still be unwilling to use one in public because they fear the disapproval of those who see this ugly contraption and believe it to be an implement of torment. Well, there's an easy answer : camouflage. You could tie a bandanna over the pinch collar, which looks quite jaunty and is considered stylish by some. You could stitch a wide flat band of leather or fabric to the outside of the pinch collar. My own answer has been to flatten the links slightly and slip the collar inside a length of 2" wide tubular nylon webbing (from the camping store), then poke the prongs through the inner surface of the webbing. The sole disadvantage of the latter two methods is that they make it difficult to shorten the collar by removing links; one can still add links easily to lengthen it. Now any experienced dog trainer will quickly spot a camouflaged pinch collar and smile knowingly; but the non-dog training ignorant member of the public will never guess. Those matches that forbid use of pinch collars will generally forbid a camouflaged pinch, even though the reason given for the prohibition is "well, we are in a public place and so we have to think about the way we appear to the general public". (Note : halters are also disallowed at AKC events. The rationale for this is totally unclear to me.)

(Update : interestingly those who use a halter often find that members of the ignorant general public look at it and think it is a muzzle and tht therefore the dog waring it must be a dangerous biter. So much so that "Gentle Leader" sells a button one can wear on one's shirt that procalims "It's NOT a muzzle !" Of course many who use halters welcome the chance to educate others as to what they really are. As these tools have become more popular, the public recognition of them as a pleasant means of dog-control has increased.)

WHAT'S IN A NAME?

The names "pinch collar", "prong collar", and "spike collar" certainly tend to foster the belief that the collar operates by means of pain. These names discourage many people who need such a collar to control a strong or unruly dog from using them.

Many shrewd training class leaders have recognized this and therefore refer to this tool as a "power steering" collar or as "the equalizer". These names seem to help to make those who need this tool more willing to use it. Such names imply that the handler is using it to compensate for his relative lack of physical strength as compared to the dog --- which indeed is often true for many women and slightly-more-than-middle-aged persons when dealing with a healthy and exhuberant young Bouvier or Rottweiler. Still the implication is that the collar operates in the realm of the physical, rather than the psychological, and so fails to emphasize the concept of the mamma-bitch.

Let me suggest to those looking for another name for our friend the pinch collar that they might well refer to it as the "mamma-bitch" collar or the "listen to me , I am your Mother !" collar.
Lauren, Jazmine (great dane)
Jazmine's pets:
Calvin (ferret)
Willy (ferret)
Samantha (ferret)
Baxter (ferret)
Ferrets friends:
Shirly and baldamore (geckos)
Gecko's friend:
Big D (fish)

Oh yeah.. my pet.. Matt (hubby)
Our pets are all above

Offline brandon

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Re: Prong collars for newfs?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2006, 06:37:18 am »
Go to petsmart or a pet store and try the different collars on your leg. I (and again this is my opinion) don't like slip type collars, because I believe they can cause injury by crushing the laranyx.. Anyways, if you try the collars on yourself, you will see the prong collar works by pinching the skin, where the choker works by constricting the whole neck.

“Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.”