Author Topic: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear  (Read 5456 times)

Offline kkhead13

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Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« on: March 19, 2007, 11:58:54 am »
Hello, this is my first time on here but I am hoping for some good advise. I have a Saint and he is 3 and about 3 weeks ago I went to grab hold of his collar and he bit me. Now if that was not bad enough he nipped at my groomer a week later and now he has growled at the lady who takes him out in the afternoon. I know about the dominance thing but we don't have problems with that he does things on our command and he listens very well. I am not sure what to do because the vet says to consider putting him down. The thought of that makes me sick because this is my baby even though we have another dog who is younger and we have had this other dog for a year and have had no problems. So having said all of that does anyone have advise for me? Should we put him down?

Offline Blair

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2007, 12:02:25 pm »
You will get great advice from the people on this board! My first thought was get a full vet check on him, like a full bloodwork etc.

Offline morph's mom

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2007, 12:09:44 pm »
Is there any chance that we could first get some more information??  We know that he is a male but is he altered??  What about your other dog.. Male Female altered or not??  Also have there been any major changes in his life lately??  Or have you or anyone that is around him been super stressed out??  Sorry but I am pretty sure that we all would need some more information in order to try to help.  I have recently delt with this problem with my dogs but there were some contributing factors with my boys.  If you could answer those questions it would help alot.

Carrie
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A. J. Keeshound  3 yr


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Offline kkhead13

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2007, 12:30:31 pm »
Good questions, we did get a full vet check up and everything came back good. My Saint is male and neutered and the other is male and neutered as well. We have had no major changes in our lives or even minor changes for that matter. My husband and I are not stressed, however I am a HUGE worry wort but that has not changed from the day we got him. One thing I should say is we did rescue him from a bad home when he was 7 months. He was not beat but he was neglected, meaning he was never fed and was out side with no shelter. I have talked to one behavior specialist and she basically said that once a Saint goes mean they don't go back. I hope this helps more. Bloodwork came back fine by the way.

Offline schelmischekitty

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2007, 12:39:03 pm »
i'm a firm believer that 99% of dogs can be rehabilitated.  don't take putting him down as the only option until it becomes clear that nothing will work.  i'd suggest contacting a behavioral trainer, and see what they say, even though he does listen maybe he just needs a little behavior specific help.  does he get enough exercise?  maybe he might be getting frustrated / grumpy b/c he has some energy and no way to get it out.  have you changed foods or started giving him treats more often?  i know when i changed our danes food he had a lot more energy than he did on the other food, maybe something as simple as treats could do this also.  maybe you could try some sort of sport, or even just long walks.  typically, tired dogs are happy dogs.  when he has nipped, was it always centered around his collar?  i know we had another person on here with the same problem except it was with the couch and going outside, and it was brought up that grabbing their collar is a very dominant gesture.  maybe you could leave a leash on him all the time and grab it instead of his collar and see how he reacts, and if it's good praise him very much.  come to think of it his name was bear too.  sorry for the length, and welcome to bpo!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 12:41:08 pm by schelmischekitty »
steffanie in atlanta

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Offline kkhead13

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2007, 12:46:21 pm »
well come to think of it we have been giving him a lot more treats and we have not been going on as many walks because our weather has been awful. And he did bite me when I went to grab a hold of his collar but that has never been a problem before but I have heard that big dogs hate their collar pulled on. His name is actually Tucker but he is a big teddy bear.

Offline schelmischekitty

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2007, 12:51:12 pm »
sounds like he might just be frustrated b/c too much energy.  is there any way you could exercise him inside your home?  i know that's hard with big paws sometimes, but we try to have about 30 minutes of hard play time inside when the dogs can't go outside.  i've also found that bones help b/c they don't add a lot of calories etc like treats sometimes do, but they do help them work out some pent up frustration.  also, depending on where you live, you may be able to find an agility class or something that trains inside that both he and you might love to do once a week or so.  we have one here that you can go to by the class, to see if it's something you'd like or if you can't make classes every week.  i know a lot of people on here do that and their dogs love it.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 12:54:42 pm by schelmischekitty »
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
[img width= height= alt=Image Hosted by ImageShack.us]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3339/alltogethernowme6.jpg[/img]

Offline kkhead13

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2007, 01:12:03 am »
Thanks so much for the advise!!! We have contacted another behavior specialist so we are waiting to hear back from her. Unfortunately, we live in a very small area and no one around to really help us. I didn't think to check under his collar because we get him shaved and so I did and there is nothing there. See funny how he will let me check his neck but not touch his collar. Now my husband is Alpha dog and back in August he started working longer and I get home at 3 could it be because his teacher so to speak is gone? Shouldn't that have effected him earlier? He listens really well I mean he even takes treats from my mouth and is very easy. I don't know my heart aches over this because he is my kid.

Offline schelmischekitty

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 02:35:55 am »
depends if you've let him get away with more lately ha ha.  if you let them get away with stuff all of a sudden, it usually doesn't take a dog long to figure it out and it won't be long before they try to run all over you!  at 3 he's either just starting to get out of adolescent mindset, or it won't be long.  just like kids, dogs have their a "terrible two" type stage also.
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
[img width= height= alt=Image Hosted by ImageShack.us]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3339/alltogethernowme6.jpg[/img]

Offline Imani's Mom

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2007, 05:02:47 am »
You have gotten some great advice from everybody. The first thing that came to mind from reading your posts is that he needs his eyes looked at. It is possible he is having some issues there, and grabbing for his collar in a sudden, quick movement, maybe he can't tell it is your hand?

Weedsport, NY

Offline PennyK

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 05:43:51 am »
My first thought is "he's hurting".  For an animal to change like that, its often pain related.  Maybe the onset of HD or just old age (you did say he was older, didn't you?)  Other than that, I don't know what to say but I hope you gt it figured out soon.

BTW, I'm Penny, Mom to my own Teddy.  Welcome to the board and we'd love to see some pics of your saints!
Every girl needs a Teddy bear!

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2007, 02:55:03 am »
The comment that was made about a Saint going bad...ugh. I have heard that before...it IS ridiculous. HOWEVER...that said:

Back yard breeding has resulted in some poor quality Saints. I don't know where you got him, but if the breeder wasn't careful, he could be affected by this. One of the unfortunate results is saints with same-sex aggression issues. I've heard of this over and over with Saints from BYBs.

You've gotten a ton of good suggestions. The thyroid panel is a good one, also the hips and elbows, etc. And eyes! Yes! Check the eyes.

Also, something that jumped out at me was that you let him take treats out of your mouth? That is one sure way to indicate that you are below him on the heirarchy.

I think one of the biggest things, barring any medical problems is the exercise issue, which has already been addressed. Someone mentioned bones, but you could also do peanut butter stuffed kongs. They kept my overactive American Bulldog happy and stimulated for hours!

Just a few things! Good luck and keep posting. The people here ARE great!

Offline sc.trojans

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Re: Teddy Bear turned Grizzly Bear
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2007, 04:49:35 pm »

Dogs in pain feel vulnerable and defensive and this could absolutely be the problem.  Since most saints have orthopedic problems, you should get OFAs on his hips and elbows at a minimum to be sure.

You also say he is now 3 and just at that age of maturity. I have seen several times before whereby a dog at this age becomes defensive with treatment he does not like and when you said "grab" his collar - I immediately thought of an identical case with a Lab.  The owner approached this lab forcefully and reached down to abruptly grab the collar and got the same reaction - this is perceived as an aggressive move and not all temperaments will respond submissively.  I don't recommend ever grabbing a collar abruptly anyway, but this may have triggered defensiveness in him and now he is reacting conditioned.

If you can rule out pain as his source of defensiveness, then I would recommend you work with a certified behaviorist who can certainly help you with this. In the meantime, you may want to check out Patricia McConnell's work and her latest book "For the Love of a Dog" deals with similar cases and is a great read. 

SC Trojans
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