Author Topic: Breeding  (Read 21031 times)

Offline Kierstyn

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Breeding
« on: April 02, 2007, 09:54:16 am »
Hello,

I have a female Berner that I am looking to breed. I just wanted some tips on what should be expected. Some of the main issues are;

Is there a certain age I should wait until? I have been told anywhere from 18 months till after her second birthday. Does anyone have any ideas about this?

Also, I have heard they have alot of birthing problems...My family has been breeding dogs for 15 years... mostly small to medium dogs so I know a bigger dog is going to have her differences. WHat sorts of problems do they have!?

Any help will be great!

Thanks

Kierstyn and Faith

Offline VdogLover

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2007, 10:08:01 am »
Is there a certain age I should wait until? I have been told anywhere from 18 months till after her second birthday. Does anyone have any ideas about this?

Atleast 24 months old and not until she has passed all her genetic health testing including~
OFA Hips
OFA Elbows
CERF
OFA Cardiac
Von Willebrand's Disease

Offline Moni

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2007, 10:14:56 am »
With Giant breeds you should wait AT LEAST until after the dog turns 2, though I know that Berners can have epilepsy which doesn't show up normally until 3 sometimes.  So I'd recommend to wait until then at the earliest.

They should have hips and elbows OFA'd, eyes CERFed and heart clear of DCM(enlarged heart) and tested for Von Willebrand's(which is a blood clotting disease like hemophilia in people).

A breeding qualtiy dog should have either working, obedience, agility and/or conformation titles, a mix of titles would be most ideal.  They should also pass at least a CGC, but a true Temperment Test judges their personality to their breed standard and appropriate reactions for their breed.  A Golden should not act like an Aussie and vice versa.

Finally they should be free of any disqualifying faults, a good breed judge can tell you your dogs good and bad points.  No dog is perfect, know what your dog's faults are so that the dog you plan on breeding to will compliment yours...

I hope that answers some of your questions.
BPO does not have my permission to use my photos.

Offline Kierstyn

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2007, 12:52:51 pm »
I just have one question... is it said to wait until they are two just because all the testing is not done? I am just going to say that she will have no testing done. She is ungregistered and all pups are going to family and friends. I have read in an AKC book that anywhere after their first birthday is fine to breed. But they suggested to wait until their 2nd birthday just to clear all tests. I just wanted to know everyones thoughts on the age thing...withou t waiting for tests.

Offline Gevaudan_Jo

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2007, 01:24:44 pm »
Not only is two recommended for health testing, but that is usually when the dog is fully matured...
Jodi & Darcy
Proud Parents of
Zero-Bull Terrier
Jigsaw-Bull Terrier
Repo- Jigsaw's baby Bull Terrier
Reba-Chinese Crested
Pavi-Xolo
Simba,Sabbath,Kimahri, Lil' Meow & Slimon-Cats
Robin the hermit crab and the 8 legged freak, Webley!
~ waiting at the bridge, Zeus and Memphis, great danes ~

Offline Moni

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2007, 01:51:36 pm »
A giant breed(which a Berner IS) is not physically done growing (AKA matured) until 3 years old.  They are a "big head " breed, so their rate of emergency c-sections are HIGH.  Just a little FYI to prepare you for the middle of the night ER trip to the vets to help remove any stuck puppies.

The fact that you are not going to do ANY testing, and already know that testing should be done means that you are going to do whatever you want anyways.  So why not just say that you're going to breed her during her next heat to whatever available male you come across.  Then all the nice people trying to calmly explain the proper and responsible way for breeding HEALTY dogs will not waste their time, since you really already have your mind made up?

Don't forget that more and more states are having puppy lemon laws, so when the puppies come down with health problems the new owners can come to you about it for finacial help for treating sick, dysplastic puppies.  As far as going to family and friends, you have 12+ people who are willing to give a Berner a home for life?  Then when these 12 people breed their Berner puppies in 2yrs and etc.... yup, thats a lot of unregisterd, untested Berners.

If I sound a bit bitter, its because I have taken in and paid for the multiple health problems of many dogs who came from similar situations.  Just one litter, no health tests.. family and friends, blah blah blah...

another fyi, these are my views and opinions, so don't get angry at the webmasters or anyone else, its Just My Humble Opinion.  You just caught me after a couple of weeks of spending over yet another grand to get my Deaf Great Dane from untested parents back over into the world of the living.  So yeah, pardon my extreme bitterness when I see someone else planning to do it again intentionally. ...

Best of luck to ya

BPO does not have my permission to use my photos.

Offline happiday

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2007, 03:46:43 pm »
Well, perhaps these posts won't change your mind, but I hope you'll think long and hard on the life your pups will have.  I am convinced my Annie could have been a 'puppy factory' before we got her: 7-years-old, never been spayed until the shelter 'angels' found her, dumped along the freeway to fend for herself.  She had been tied up, and it damaged her vocal chords so severely that she had to have surgery and now can't bark.  Many people look at the "oh, puppies are sooooo cute!" but they don't know the first thing about making a BigPaw part of the family.  The dog gets lonely out in the yard, and gets bored and digs out, or eats the landscaping, so the owners tie it up to control it.  This confinement can lead to hip problems (which Annie has) and all sorts of other difficulties for the dogs.  Not all dog lovers are prepared for the expense of a big dog.  What then?  Will you take back those puppies?  The shelters and rescues are filled with hundreds of big dogs that were SOOOOOOOOO CUUUUUTE as puppies, but then got 'too big' and dumped.  Please, if you are going to join BPO, be willing to listen to all sides of an issue.  There are many wise people here, with much good advice.  JMNSHO
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 03:48:15 pm by happiday »
Salli, Annie's mama!

Offline Kierstyn

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2007, 11:48:42 pm »
Hello,

I thank you all for your concerns. But I must say... I took my girl to the vet yesterday to see what he had to say about the whole breeding thing. He said that after 18 months is fine to breed. He said the younger the better becauSe the older they get, the more problems they have because their bones become brittle.He also said that testing is a good idea... but that only means you will get more for your pups. He said Berner's do have problems giving birth (which I already knew) but ALL BREEDS have that chance of having problems. Like I said before, my family has bred dogs for voer 15 years. We have bred Cockers, Hounds, Dalmations, and Boston Terriers, and trust me I have had my share of bills from ALL these dogs. I have had ALL these dogs have birthing problems. And also, I have had my share of bills with people needing help paying for their dogs. I have read about these dogs for over 5 years. She has been my dream dog. She is unregistered, her parentes and grand parents were unregistered and I will be breeding her with and Unregistered Male. I thank you for all your concern, but I must say something, people with registered dogs have a totally different veiw then thsoe with un registered dogs. None of our dogs have EVER been registered. Papers mean nothing.

Offline Moni

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2007, 12:45:26 am »
Registry doesn't make a healthy/unhealthy dog.  All a registry is is a family tree, period.  I've rescued plenty of unregistered dogs.  So don't give me, the "people with registered dogs" hoopla.

Snubbing your nose at health testing is irresponsible and selfish, and the dogs are going to be the ones to suffer for it, period!  The ONLY reason a person would not health test when they know it should be done is because they are looking for ways to cut costs and want to make even more MONEY from the puppies they sell from breeding their bitch as many times as possible.  Right?  I mean, what other reason would there be?  What is your reason?

The fact that your family has been breeding untested & unregisterd dogs for over a dozen years, well I'm not even going to get into that.  It just proves my point.  Especially since you say that you've already had to help people pay for their dogs problems....  whatever.  I think you are just trying to stir up trouble.

It must be nice to be able to breed dozens and dozens of unhealthy puppies and not feel guilty about pouring more unwanted dogs into the world to add to the thousands of dogs killed everyday.  Must be nice.


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Offline happiday

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2007, 02:21:14 am »
I think you are just trying to stir up trouble.

I agree.
Salli, Annie's mama!

Offline Gevaudan_Jo

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2007, 02:29:12 am »
As someone who has been showing dogs, and has been mentored for about a year or two for breeding, Yet has never bred... i say this...
To you, papers mean nothing...  because your dog has no papers? Papers= the dogs registry= shows its parents, and its educational to the potential owners to see who the parents are, who the grand parents are, etc. etc. knowing this information EVEN FOR BREEDERS, is potential in picking perfect matches for their breedings. they will choose very carefully. only the best health, the best standard and the best for the breed... and then carefully plan their breeding for about 2 years before jumping into it... Yes, many breeders that i know wont breed until their bitch is at least 3 or 4. it helps with careful planning, full on health checks. etc. And your vet saying that a health cert. is only worth jacking the prices up- VERY WRONG.
The price of the puppy is worth...
A)paying for showing
B) Finding and paying for that stud, (flying him out, or sending the bitch to him)
C)paying for all parents vet care, food, etc.
D) Paying for those puppy check ups
E) If something goes wrong durring welping, there is a good vet bill that will need to be paid...
F) Registering each and every pup...
G) Full on health tests.... (for instance, my breed needs BAER, Heart, Liver Kidneys and patellas)...

Just for a few examples... So... don't think people are jumping at you for any reasons, other than trying to just educate you and show you what "Ethical" really is... how breeding effects more than just you and the money that goes into your pocket...

« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 02:30:04 am by Gevaudan_Jo »
Jodi & Darcy
Proud Parents of
Zero-Bull Terrier
Jigsaw-Bull Terrier
Repo- Jigsaw's baby Bull Terrier
Reba-Chinese Crested
Pavi-Xolo
Simba,Sabbath,Kimahri, Lil' Meow & Slimon-Cats
Robin the hermit crab and the 8 legged freak, Webley!
~ waiting at the bridge, Zeus and Memphis, great danes ~

Offline schelmischekitty

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2007, 03:18:56 am »
ok, this is a touchy subject.  genetic testing, etc, isn't just so you can jack prices up.  people get it done because they owe it to the breed, the potential adopters, and especially the dogs involved to check for any problems that could shorten their lives, cause them pain during their life, etc.  it's done out of love because the breeder wants the best for everyone involved and don't want to cause unnecessary pain and suffering to anyone involved.  waiting at least until their two is simply because of the maturity.  just like people, yeah, you can have a baby at 14, BUT you won't be mature.  it's more likely that a 14 y/o teenager will not take care of her baby, or maybe she wants to but just doesn't have the ability to.  it's the same with dogs.  most breeders care about their dogs being grown not only physically but mentally before breeding.  i have 5 dogs and not one of them is registered, BUT i have also gotten 3 of them from BYB litters (and peanut from a "reputable" breeder) and i am paying dearly for not getting them from "tested" parents.  axle has HD, ED, he's cross eyed, has skin and stomach problems, and the list goes on.  caine has skin problems.  peanut has problems with his mouth structure.  diesel, our dane, i don't even want to go there.  he's beyond unhealthy.  all because people wanted their "baby" to have babies, or they just wanted the money involved, and didn't care about the things that should have been done before hand.  why did i get them then?  because they needed someone willing to take good care of them, regardless of their health problems.  peanut, actually came from papered parents and has papers that i just won't send off, and he still has problems.  people here aren't trying to bash you, but you really aren't showing much love towards the breed by just wanting to have puppies so your friends can have one.
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
[img width= height= alt=Image Hosted by ImageShack.us]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3339/alltogethernowme6.jpg[/img]

Offline Kierstyn

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2007, 08:23:11 am »
Hello,

Once again I accept everyones points of veiw. One more question. If I went along with the testing... as I do have a chance next year to go with a family friend, does it matter that she is unregistered? Is it the fect that she is unregistered why i shouldnt breed her?

Offline Gracie Belle

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2007, 10:07:39 am »
Hi Kierstyn.  Welcome to BPO.  I'm Misty and I have a 10 month old English Mastiff named Gracie.  Let's see.  I think the point of breeding is to BETTER THE BREED!!!!  As you've stated, you have no papers, titles, your dog does not come from any champion lines or anything to prove that your bitch would contribute to a higher standard of her breed.  Don't misinterpret that your dog is not wonderful and not capable of making cute puppies simply because she has no papers.  She just may not be a great representation of the breed for many reasons.  ...such as Health tests which will help you know that.  Like Jo mentioned, have a judge look at her and tell you where she is strong or week in appearance compared to the breed standard.  My English Mastiff Gracie is the most wonderful dog I've ever known but is not at all a good representation of her breed YET she has papers.  She's only 10 months and I have no idea what sort of health issues we'll encounter but she will be spayed either way even if she's all clear of medical issues god willing.  The point is, here that breeding is irresponsible  when you make no attempt to better the breed.  Avoid health issues.  Continue to strengthen champion bloodlines which make healthier dogs and not just make cute puppies.  I can't say it enough.  Better the breed.  That is why!
Misty slave to:
Gracie Belle, 2 year English Mastiff
Rosco, 1 yr Toy German Shettweiler (designer mutt of course)and toy cause he's not Rotti or GSD size AT ALL.  Though they said he was a mix of the two..  Tonka, 3 year Great Dane
And last and most certainly NOT least, Linus 5 year old cat.

Offline schelmischekitty

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Re: Breeding
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2007, 10:22:47 am »
although YES, papers make things a ton better and i do believe that breeding should be done to "better" the breed let me say this.  if you are going to, no matter what, if it was me i'd prefer that the dog be tested rather than not tested and not papered.  at least testing shows you do care.  not sure you care what i think, but just thought i'd get that out.  will this be the only time you breed her?  if you are "no matter what" breeding her and will not consider not doing it, please do a "pet only spay / neuter contract" and follow up on it.  this will help ensure that the puppy will not end up at a puppy mill.  also, do screen adopters to make sure that they know what they're getting into (adult dog size, the fact they're a working breed, costs involved, etc.)  breeding has so many "what if's" to it.  what if the breeding / birthing goes wrong?  what if the puppy ends up in a bad home / shelter, etc.  what if the puppy ends up neglected / abused?  this is why i don't breed, i can't handle the what if's of involving what would happen to the puppies, even if my dogs were 100% perfect for the breed.
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
[img width= height= alt=Image Hosted by ImageShack.us]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3339/alltogethernowme6.jpg[/img]