Author Topic: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.  (Read 18818 times)

Offline NoDogNow

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HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« on: April 24, 2007, 04:43:01 pm »
Well, we clearly didnít send enough angry emails yet to the California legislature, because theyíve passed that horrible bill.

Iím going to cross post something from one of my other forums, because I know that everyone here is as passionate about dogs and breeding and PROPER breeding of dogs as I am. And as this breeder is.

I encourage everyone to check out the website and also the PetLaw group.  Whether your children and grandchildren grow up with the boundless love you all get from your dogs is at stake, IMNSHO.

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Permission to crosspost:

CA AB 1634 has passed out of committee. It will now go on to the appropriations committee. If it passes there, the next stop is the full assembly for a vote into law.

If it becomes law, there will effectively be no more breeding in California.

The people who believe we should "work with" the fanatics who want these bills passed should read The Future of Dogs at http://www.pet-law.com/future/forward.html It can also be ordered as a booklet from that site. These laws are not intended to lower euthanasia rate -- the DOG euthanasia rate has been dropping steadily for 30 years. They are intended to STOP BREEDING ALTOGETHER.

Unless you understand the animal rights agenda, you will never be able to protect your rights. When California develops a dog deficit, which is already happening in many parts of the state, when people cannot buy a quality purebred, guess where the puppies will come from? Over the border, as many are now. They are raised in uninspected, often filthy places that make the breeders we call "puppy mills" look like doggie heaven. Do you think the people who are already supplying puppies illegally ("Meet me in the Walmart parking lot at midnight. Bring cash.") are going to stop doing it when their market doubles and triples?

Since many of those pups will end up in shelters due to health or temperament problems, the ARS will be back in three or four years saying "The law isn't tough enough." And those Responsible Breeders who decided that since the laws would only apply to those Irresponsible Breeders, we should work on a compromise will find themselves caught in the web next. And guess who will NOT be there to help us? Remember those commercial breeders we threw to the lions??

The statistics cited as "horrific euthanasia rates" include:

1) Cats -- there is still a cat overpopulation problem, largely due to feral & "barn cats." Forcing purebred cat breeders to spay and neuter will not touch this problem. How many "excess euthanasias" do you think there are of, say, Abyssinians or even Persians? How many people with purebred cats allow them to roam and breed freely? Purebred cats account for one percent of the overall cat population.

2) Dogs brought to shelters FOR euthanasia. Many people cannot afford to have a vet euthanize an old, even very much loved, pet. Their only choice may be shelter euthanasia, where the perhaps 16-year-old chihuhahua is counted as "ANOTHER UNWANTED PET!!!!"

3) Dogs with no chance of being safe, happy or healthy pets. It's not true that there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. Just like some people, some dogs are just plain wired wrong. Yes, unfortunately they may bounce through a few homes before arriving at the shelter, but they too Ė even though no one could call them pets -- are counted in the "SKYROCKETING EUTHANASIA NUMBERS." If California goes mandatory spay/neuter, we will lose possibly ten percent of the gene pool of many of our breeds. What will that do for purebred dogs?

Folks, this is war. We are county by county and now state by state losing our right to not only breed, but to even OWN more than two or three dogs.

Compromising is not the answer.


Education is. I am amazed at the number of inquiries I get from people who already KNOW not to buy from pet ships, know what questions to ask, are prepared to pay a fair price for a good puppy. It will not help us to win the education war if we have meanwhile been legislated out of existence. There will always be shelter euthanasia and it will always include some dogs that could have been good pets. There will also always be child abuse, homelessness, and cancer. It happens. Life is not perfect. Passing laws to wipe out breeding as an approach to shelter euthanasia is like limiting couples to two children to prevent child abuse. The issues are not even related except that they both involve children.

We do not have a pet overpopulation problem. We have a pet retention problem, and the answer to that is education. Help people KEEP their pets by offering support and being open to questions. Many people who turn their dogs in to shelters do so because they don't understand the basics of housetraining or dog behavior. And yes, they may turn in their next dog too unless there is intervention. When your neighbor gripes about her Labradoodle peeing in the house, don't roll your eyes and preach about the folly of "designer dogs." Give her a copy of the housetraining paper you send home with puppies. Talk to her about what exactly is going on. Is he marking? Is he confined for too long and just can't hold it? Has he just never been housetrained? As breeders, we have a responsibility to address the owner turn-in part of euthanasia, but it is not fulfilled by cutting back on breeding or supporting laws against "those other guys." It is hands-on, one-on-one education provided in a friendly -- not condescending and bossy, which we all excel in! -- manner. We need to be making friends in the community and doing something to fight the "snobby dog breeder" image we've built over the years.

Okay. Enough. Next time you see something about AB1634 or another bill in someone else's community, find out what you can do to help. Today it's California. Tomorrow it will be your state. You may not think you have time to help. You'd better make time or no one will be left to help you when it's your turn.


-- Sharyn Timbreblue Whippets ~ www.timbreblue .com Sharyn & Walt Hutchens Virginia Pet-Law: Protect Your Rights to Own and Breed Dogs http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pet-Law

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California Big Paw People: call your assembly rep and THREATEN TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST THEM if CA AB 1634 is passed.

And email the Governator, telling him to veto this bill if it passes.

This is an extremely bad law, with some extreme long range consequences; and if this bill passes in California, it's going to be put in front of every legislature in the country over the next year or two. We can't let this get past us.
Sheryl, Dogless and sad

Offline Stacey

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2007, 10:40:10 pm »
I'm not really sure I understand this law at all.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I am able to pull up on Westlaw, it looks like the current version of the bill requires all owners to spay or neuter pets that do not qualify for some type of an exemption permit.  To obtain the permit, the animal must meet one of the following criteria:

(1)  The owner demonstrates, by providing a copy of his or her business license and federal and state tax number, or by other proof, as requested by the local jurisdiction or its authorized animal control agency, that he or she is doing business and is licensed as a breeder at a location for which the local jurisdiction or its authorized animal control agency has issued a breeder permit.

(2)  The owner sufficiently demonstrates, as determined in the discretion of the local jurisdiction or its authorized animal control agency, all of the following:

(A)  His or her cat or dog is used to show or compete and has competed in at least one legitimate show or sporting competition, hosted by, or under the approval of, a recognized purebred registry or association in existence since at least October 1, 2007, within the last two years, or by whatever proof is requested by the authorized local animal control agency that the cat or dog is being trained to show or compete and is too young to have yet competed.

(B)  His or her cat or dog is a valid breed that is recognized by an approved purebred registry or association in existence since at least October 1, 2007.

(C)  The cat or dog has earned, or if under two years old, is in the process of earning, a conformation, obedience, agility, carting, herding, protection, rally, sporting, working, or other title from an approved purebred registry or association.

(3)  The owner provides proof to the local jurisdiction or its authorized local animal control agency that the dog is being trained or is documented as having been appropriately trained and meets the definition of guide dog, service dog, or signal dog, as set forth in subdivisions (d), (e), and (f) of Section 365.5 of the Penal Code.

(4)  The dog owner provides proof to the local jurisdiction or its authorized local animal control agency that the dog is being trained, or is documented as having been appropriately trained, and actively used by law enforcement agencies for law enforcement or rescue activities.

(5)  The owner of a cat or dog provides a letter to the local jurisdiction or its authorized local animal control agency from a California licensed veterinarian stating that due to age, poor health, or illness, it is unsafe to spay or neuter the cat or dog. This letter shall include the veterinarianís license number and shall be periodically updated, and shall, if this information is available, include the duration of the condition of the dog or cat, and the date by which the dog or cat may be safely spayed or neutered.


So, if a dog is event competing, registered, a guide/service dog, law enforcement dog, ill, or if the breeder has priorly obtained a breeder permit, the dogs do not have to be spayed or neutered ... but other wise must be?  Is that correct?

If that is the case, I think it is an awesome law.
I am kind of a big deal!

Nicole

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2007, 06:56:23 am »
If that is the case, I think it is an awesome law.

That was my thought too, Stacey.  :-\

I'm with ya both. Sounds really good to me. It sounds like it truly WILL reduce the euthanasia rate.

Offline Stacey

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 07:28:18 am »
I have read and read everything I can find on this bill, and I think it is outstanding!  I hope that they pass similar laws across the nation. 
I am kind of a big deal!

Offline schelmischekitty

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 08:40:06 am »
i agree with thinking it will help, in that it will regulate breeders, BUT it isn't really going to help with people who breed without a second thought.  esp. if the puppy #'s are down, you know they're going to get as many puppies out of their dogs as they can simply b/c the demand will be higher.
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Nicole

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2007, 08:43:02 am »
i agree with thinking it will help, in that it will regulate breeders, BUT it isn't really going to help with people who breed without a second thought.  esp. if the puppy #'s are down, you know they're going to get as many puppies out of their dogs as they can simply b/c the demand will be higher.

Hmm...that's not how I understood it. It seems like the breeeders DO NOT have to have their dogs spayed and neutered, but everyone else does, right? So, it seems like it would do more to regulate illegitimate breeders, right?

Offline schelmischekitty

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2007, 08:47:27 am »
how would they do that though?  there's not enough people to go house to house and inspect each pet, etc.  some of the worst people would try to hide their pets, wouldn't they?  the BYB's normally don't have papers, but they'll go to outrageous extents to breed still, even if they hide their dogs in bathrooms, etc.  (am i making sense, because i think i might be rambling again ha ha)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 08:48:17 am by schelmischekitty »
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
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Offline schelmischekitty

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2007, 08:58:56 am »
it'd going to be interesting to see how this law works out.  i sure hope it works out for the best, and if it does, maybe they will make it a national law!
steffanie in atlanta

aiden (4), tristan (2), & maya (born sept. 17th)
axle-140ish-lb akita (4)
peanut-5lb, 11 months chihuahua
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Offline macybean

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2007, 10:39:51 am »
While it might be difficult to implement, it has the potential to reduce the number of animals dying in shelters each year. I don't have a problem with that.

Offline Mojo1269

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2007, 11:21:28 am »
Anyone who has spent anytime on Petfinder.com and has seen all the displaced dogs available would be on board with this.  Like most things, it is not perfect, but it is at least a step in right direction.  It would be nice to see more states take a more agressive stance on Puppy Mill's.  Sadly my state of MN is not but there are people starting to lobby for it.
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Offline NoDogNow

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2007, 01:37:42 pm »
Guys, you are NOT getting it, and that really surprises me.

Stop looking at the pretty window dressing, and look at what this bill DOESN'T HAVE.

There's no limit on cost, period. EVERY JURIDICTION in California is allow to set ANY ANNUAL fee for the 'intact' animal permit that they choose to set, so long as they base in on their purported 'costs.' Cities and counties could decide to fund their entire Animal Control budget on the backs of breeders.

How many really good breeders can afford--given the good breeder are already losing money the vast majority of the time!--an intact animal permit that may very quickly begin to cost thousands per dog?

And there are NO EXCEPTIONS in this bill for non-resident dogs of any kind. Every owner coming to a competition of any kind from anywhere would have to purchase one of these permits for every dog they're bringing to compete, or Animal Control can confiscate their dogs, and will neuter them before returning them. Heck...never mind a competition. You couldn't even bring your dog to the beach on a VACATION.

Local jurisdictions are given TOTAL CARTE BLANCHE to decide to not only grant but revoke these permits annually or upon a single allegation of misconduct--without any recourse. There are NO overarching standards set by this law, other than "S/N by the age of four months." Any jurisdiction can do ANY thing they decide.

And understand very clearly that this law does NOTHING to prevent puppy mills--because the law allows local jurisidictions to recognize or refuse to recognize ANY ADDITIONAL REGISTRY/S THEY CHOOSE TO. That includes the so-called private registries, the various hybrid registries, and so on and so on.  The bill ONLY mentions 4 specific ones, but local jurisdictions to can set any arbitrary standard that they choose, including not setting any standard at all!

A puppy mill could set up a 'private' registry, and afford to pay whatever price the jurisdiction set, because they're going to make the money back on badly breed, sickly puppies sent to pet stores. And they're going to be paying sales tax and other fees to the jurisdiction as well. A puppy mill would be a total windfall for a city or county.

This bill is a disaster.

I've been researching this issue since I first heard about this disaster in the making, and the fact is that NO MANDATORY SPAY NEUTER BILL IN ANY JURISDICTION HAS WORKED.

Not anywhere.

No place, no time, no circumstance.

NOT EVEN ONCE.

In point of actual fact, MSN laws have across the board increased numbers of dogs being put down in shelters, in part because confiscated intact animals end up being put down BY THE PEOPLE WHO TOOK THEM, when owners can't afford to pay the $20+/day boarding fee for 30-60-90 days until their case comes to court! And because the dogs are involved in a court case, they can't be adopted out or found new homes. So their 'time' runs out, and they're PTS.

MSN bills are provably a failure. To claim otherwise is a lie worthy of Heinrich Himmler.

The radical anti-pet PETA people and the Humane Society of the US (who do not now, or have they ever had anything to do with shelters--that's only the SPCA, so if you're giving the HSUS money, please STOP) are behind this bill.  The Humane Society, in particular, wants to eliminate the ownership of ALL DOMESTIC ANIMALS. Dogs, cats, horses, rabbits, everything.

And what's the easiest way to do that? Keep them from ever being born.

Look, I know how much everyone here loves their dogs, and wants to make sure every dog gets a shot at a home and a family that will love them just as much. I want that, too. I firmly believe that every responsible pet owner should be talking with their vet from the minute they get that puppy about when their puppy should be neutered.

But bills/laws like this are NOT the way to accomplish our goal.

All bills/laws like this are going to do is 1) rip the gonads out of puppies without regard for best medical practice based on a vet's evaluation of each puppy; and 2) make it financially impossible for GOOD, loving, home/hobby breeders to produce well-thought out, well-cared for litters of well-socialized puppies who are as healthy as their genetics allow.

This is the first shot of a war our dogs can't afford for us to lose.

Are you aware that the PETA people have already gotten a law passed in San Diego requiring any breeder who is going to have more than one litter of pups over the life of his/her dog to become licensed as a COMMERCIAL KENNEL? And abide by all the zoning requirements OF said commerical kennel? And if, for example, your backyard is only 700 sq ft instead of 725 sq ft, you can't get a license, and are subject to thousands of dollars of fines if you breed your National Champion Chiahuahua twice in 3 years.

How long do you think it's going to be before there AREN'T any more breeders in San Diego?

And that all started with local spay/neuter legislation.

I suggest that you start where I did several weeks ago:

http://www.pet-law.com/index.html

This guy has done a lot of the initial research and while he sees the worst case scenario, I think his extrapolations are well supported by the data available.
Sheryl, Dogless and sad

Offline morph's mom

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2007, 02:35:24 pm »
Well I can answer this one.  I was not going to get involved with this thread but now I am.  In San Diego the HSUS and as ASPCA are two seperate intities that work together.  At the Central shelter in San Diego there are two seperate buildings side by side.  To the Left is the ASPCA which is the for lack of a better term, the pound where all incoming dogs and cats go.  The building to the right is the HSUS.  The HSUS is acting kind of like a rescue group there.  They screen all of the pets from the ASPCA and if they are getting short on time and can pass the behavior test then the pull them from that building and take them to the HSUS building.  The ASPCA is involved with the county goverment because the county pays the animal control officers and for the vets that are employed there.  The HSUS is completely self sufficient from the county and city gov.  They built and payed for their new building with state of the art animal condos from donations, the HSUS headquarters, and federal grants.  They also pay thier trainers and their own vets and all thier staff from donations and the HSUS.  Nothing there comes from the city or county goverment. 
We lived in San Diego for the last 6 years and I have adopted pets from both organizations.  I also volunteered with the San Diego HSUS for 5 years.
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Offline Mojo1269

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2007, 02:39:10 pm »
You have thrown a lot of information out there but have failed to give any substantiated backup.  Show me your allegations are not urban myth but steeped in facts and I could be persuaded, but at this time all I have seen is allegorical theories and nothing that adds proof to your view.  
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Offline Nina

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2007, 02:46:32 pm »
Granted I live in Canada but I am going to throw my 2 cents in anyway. At least they are trying to do something about the pet over population. I'd rather see no breeding and all pets being spayed/neutered than being put down. If people want to get a dog from a breeder they can do so from another state or country, or rescue. We have to think of what is best for the animals not the breeders(no offense to any breeders out there) And having your pet "fixed" is what is best. Lower risk of cancer in males and infection in females, and those are facts. Anyway I could go on an on about this. Again just my 2 cents, but I think this bill is a good thing.

Nina 
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Offline People Whisperer

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Re: HORRIBLE BILL HAS PASSED.
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2007, 02:47:12 pm »
I pesonally don't believe that the mandatory spay/neuter would solve the problem. I think that the government need to work on shutting down all the puppy mills and pet stores. Responsible breeders on the other hand have to make sure that the puppies who are not being shown in conformation/obedience get fixed.

Animals who and up in the shelters usually come from irrisposible owners and are being purchased from BYBs or pet stores.

Very sad! My heart is breaking thinking about it...

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