caine went after somebody...

[schelmischekitty]

i don't know how many of you know about us having problems with caine.  we CAN'T keep him in our yard.  every time we fix one problem he starts another, he either goes over under or THROUGH the fence (literally he chewed a hole through it).  well, all was honky dory with him escaping into our neighbors yard b/c she didn't mind (she even said she liked having him in the yard and felt more secure with him there)  and he acted like a gentleman.  until today.  i put caine outside and less than 5 minutes later i heard barking and walked out JUST in time to yell at caine and make him turn from biting the neighbor's dad's face.  the guy is about 6 ft tall and caine was jumping to get his face.  unprovoked.  i guess he sees her yard as his, but i can't have a dog act like this, unprovoked, and i have NO idea what i should do or what's causing this behavior.  when i saw what was going on i yelled at caine, he turns mid jump and runs back into our yard (under her fence) and goes straight inside, tail wagging like he was proud of himself.  i've been keeping him inside all but pottying him a few times a day, but it's really not fair to him or us.  i'm at a loss of what to do, the guy chewed my butt out horribly and wouldn't even listen to the fact that i'm TRYING to fix out yard, but it's  hard to do with just me here, pregnant, with 2 kids.  esp. when i can't get in touch with the land lord who owns that house to ask how he wants to go about replacing the fence line.  actually, i never even got a chance to get past "I" before he started his ranting again.  i know he has good reason, but i wish he would have given me a chance to talk.  my neighbor just stood there and didn't even back me up when i said i had made several attempts to fix the fence, just let him continue to chew my butt off.  shows me how much of a friend she is.  finally i just walked off.  caine's behavior just keeps getting worst, no matter what we do.  he even bit brandon's hand, leaving several puncture wounds and it was gushing.  all because hubby reached over the fence when he was outside.  brandon walks him most every morning, but the more we walk him the more hyped up he gets around the fence.  i'm not sure why.  he's never had anyone tease him through the fence, and he is awesome with the AC guy (when he came out here b/c someone said our dog was running loose, which was a false claim).  he's fine with the construction workers who replaced the telephone pole and was wagging his tail, playing with them every chance he got.  i'm at a loss of what to do, so if anyone has any advice please tell me!  because of the neighbor's dad's threats, we think he's going to call AC out here for a "vicious dog."  although we don't want to i'm starting to think it would be best just to find him a new home where he has more room and less people around and AC won't be able to confiscate him.   

[schelmischekitty]

that's what we've been doing, not letting him out unless i can sit out there with him.  the only problem is i can't take him out whenever he asks (he's been going potty at 6am, 9am, 1pm, 5pm, 9pm, and then one last time at about 11pm), and when i do bring him out he won't come to me and runs circles around me or he's out the fence before i can even get down the stairs.  i thought about putting a chain on him, but the only place i can chain him (where he won't get hung up on either branches, the porch, etc) would be right on that fence, so he'd have to be on a short chain.  the only thing i can think of is i know her dad doesn't like him to start with, so maybe caine knows when people hate him (just b/c of his breed) and gets overly hateful?  it's all i can come up with, because if people like or don't have a stereotype in their mind already he's fine with them.

[schelmischekitty]

caine is typically really good on recall.  he just gets really stubborn when he has to stay inside (he loves to be outside).  hubby said we're going to the store when he gets home (in about 20 minutes) to get a long tie out stake and some concrete to put into the ground in the middle of the yard so he can still spend some time outside during the day.  that way he can't pull it up, and he can't get to anybody's fence line.  hopefully that will work (and hopefully that guy doesn't call ac).  i wish i knew how to fix his behavior though.

modified to add that if he doesn't go outside every few hours he will sit at the door and scream (literally) at the top of his lungs.  it sounds like you're beating him or he's in a trap of some sort, but he's just being a pain in the butt.  he doesn't necessarily have to potty though. 

he does this in the crate too, but only if you're not in the room.  (we crate him when we can't watch him as he's prone to eating things)  also whenever the house gets quiet, even if you leave the tv or something on.  nothing can change, and you can tip toe out the room but the second you're gone he starts his screaming.  he'll be fine in his crate one second, then you tip toe out the room for bedtime and he starts instantly.  we've tried ignoring him, but it takes about an hour for him to quiet up.

his screaming is really annoying.  when he's going at it, you can't hear the tv no matter how loud it is, you can't talk on the phone, or even have a conversation with someone sitting next to you.  even the kids tell him, "shut up caine!" so they can play in peace and quiet.

[schelmischekitty]

he was recently neutered (three weeks ago)

[bigdogs@5501]

Since he was recently neutered, he is still dealing with raging hormones. Jake calmed down a lot about 3 months after he was neutered. Can you get one of those chain link enclosures with a top and a enclosed bottom, at least he would be able to be out side and enjoy the great outdoors. Unfortunately being a pit or part pit he is going to always be viewed as a problem breed, especially by people who do not know any better and if he is rehomed and he shows this behavior he could be sent to the pound and be put to sleep.

[Brownis15]

It takes anywhere from 6 - 12 weeks for the neuter to kick in. I think the enclosure idea is great. Heres some other suggestions.

It sounds like Caine is really ruling the roost in terms of your lifestyle and schedule. That is not fair. He may scream to go outside but you need to just let him scream, like a toddler. YOU decide when he goes out, not him. Ignore him, and it will take longer at first, but soon he will realize, you decide, not him, and screaming gets him nowhere.  Start making him work for EVERYTHING. Even a pat on the head. He is acting very much like a dog that is the leader of the pack. Protecting his property. Even though he doesnt do it with everyone, just a couple of people is enough of a sign, and once he figures out his strategy works, he will do it more and more. (Im just going by what I have read though)

I think until he is calmer and acting more subordinate, supervise him outside always. For now, I wouldnt do a tie out. That can cause more frustration and soon they become really territorial of their tie out space, and then if someone they dont know approaches that, its really dangerous. I would walk him on a short leash and make him heel, sit, heel, for a few blocks until you let him have some supervised outdoor off leash play. Make him work for every single thing. Make him sit before he goes out, and he cant break the sit even with the door open until you give him a release. And I would contact a trainer and get some obedience stuff going again. You will find with these exercises, he will feel like you are more in control and he can relax, which will make him less aggressive and much less pushy.

If you need me, you can PM me.  I hope this helps.

[horsepoor21]

He bit your husband ... What if it's your child's face next time ? That's so scarey .
I hope you can figure things out okay 

[rayray]

i agree about the training....th at will give your dog some structure and help out with getting him back into knowing that you are the boss.

[mama23+pyrs2]

I don't think I'd ever trust again a dog that bit me, that's just me and I would always have that fear, that would be no good for either of us. So I guess kudos to your husband for giving him another chance. Any biting incidence is scary, especially when you have small children, I agree. Those of you w/out children won't ever 'get' that, and a lot of people with kids won't until something were to happen to one of them. I'd have a hard time living with the guilt of that, knowing prior the dog had a tendency to go off the handle.

I totally understand the need to protect their property, fence etc.. as mine have been bred to do the same thing, but there is a difference in knowing when and who to protect it from, it seems that difference is blurred for poor Caine. The day my dog drew blood from the family he was supposed to be protecting, well ..I would hope to never see that day. I agree I'm sure there is lots that can be done with training him and somehow he's mixed up his place there and has become too overprotective (has he always been this way?) Hopefully the neutering will calm him, I know it calmed my psychotic cat. I don't think the answer is to put him down either and am pretty sure a breed such as his with that history will get him nowhere fast, were he ever to find himself at the pound.

I wish you guys luck! That's a lot for you to take on, being pg, having the 2 little ones and 4 other dogs. More than I could handle.

[Nicole]

I feel kind of qualified to respond here.

I used to have a pitty/Am. Bully X named Bo. A lot of you know his story, but Steff, I don't think that you do.

Bo was a SUPER sweet boy. He didn't have any territory issues, let almost anyone in the house without incident, etc. I mean, he was rotten in other ways...he ate my entire couch, my daughter's entire mattress, hundreds of dollars worth of shoes, underwear, books, etc. But, otherwise, he was basically the sweetest thing ever.

EXCEPT...

He had this thing, when people put their arms up, he jumped at the arms. He was rescued from some gang-bangers, and I think that they had probably taught him how to do that, you know, like they do with police dogs and umm...what's that word? Schitzhund? Or something? You know what I mean, right?

Anyway, so Bo did that. I was trying to work with him. I made him sit for everything. Sit at the door. Sit at the corner before we crossed the street. Sit at the food dish. Sit for a petting, etc. The dog sat his fool butt off. Honestly, it made him an AWESOME dog, and he KNEW that I was the boss. But, for some reason, I still left him off-leash in the yard. I was like, over confident, I guess.

Anyway, he jumped on a lady, nipped at her arms when she threw them up screaming, and AC took him and euthanized him.

When I was going through the whole arm biting jumping thing, I considered rehoming him and really tried in earnest to get him into Am. Bully rescue. Looking back, I realize that there wasn't anyone as qualified to deal with Bo than me, and I would have been putting my problem off on someone else. I know SO MUCH MORE now about dogs and dog behavior, and I wish I had him back so I could work on that problem better.

I guess what I'm saying, Steff, is that you HAVE to work with him. You can't put him off on someone else. It will confuse him and he is YOUR problem.

I know this is going to sound harsh, but it sounds like (based on what you post) that you might be a little in over your head. You post about your kid tearing up his room and your dog being out of control. Is it possible for you to get some...I don't know...counsel ing? Not like, cuz I think you're crazy, but more like, a life coach? You need to understand that YOU run this nest so that you can make the baybays IN the nest understand it. But until YOU understand, they won't either. You might just need a cheerleader, Steff.

Listen, I'm only posting this because I KNOW how it feels to be in your position. I needed a life coach, and I hired a great one. She has given me the advice, insight and plain old encouragement that has helped me see A LOT of things in my life differently.

[Moni]

I personally think a tether is a bad idea, for the reasons already mentioned.  Also when Faust was a puppy and Tori was a toddler, I used a tether for those times when he needed out and I couldn't watch him.  Unfortunately, a tether doesn't keep others away and I caught the neighbor's kid beating him with a stick and throwing rocks at him after I put Tori down for her nap.  It took almost a year of behavior modification to get him to trust other kids again(he was amazing with mine).

I know that you have a fence too, but unless you are out there you really don't know if people are teasing him over the top of it.  We lived in the middle of nowhere and I don't know how long that went on for before I caught the kid.  I mean who lets their 5 yr old run around on a farm by themselves?  (Later on that same kid broke into my duck pen and killed one of my ducklings by breaking its neck... )

As far as rehoming, I'd strongly advise against it.  If he has already bit and drew blood then goes into another home and does it, they can turn around and sue you for rehoming a dangerous dog.  I suggest finding a behaviorist to come work with you.  An enclosure with a top and bottom will keep him contained and others safe if you can't supervise him outside.  Best of luck, it sounds like you have your hands full.    

[bluskygirl]

I can see everyone's point of view here.  I agree that rehoming Caine would cut his chances for success by at least half... sadly just because of his breed. At the same time, I have little boys and so having a dog in my house that is not trustworthy or "predictable" is a BIG issue. It's one thing to be able to teach an older kid not to sneak up behind a sleeping dog or yank on his tail, but little kids DON'T get it. So, a lot of this depends on kids ages, and you have little ones. Obviously we know that Caine loves your family, and with the training and obedience work that everyone's suggested I'm sure everything will work out great. Just remember that it's your family and your situation and none of us here see what you see. Everyone here has great advice about helping Caine, but we are all very biased, as this is a dog board! You do what is best for your family, regardless of whether it "jives" with us here. I think I mostly just wanted to say that I support you and your efforts whatever they may be. I hope that you can get things with Caine turned around. Best of luck.

Angeleen 

[Moni]

I can see both sides too since I had a baby and a very precocious toddler, an insane Border Collie puppy, and a dominant guarding Aussie, when Faust was having his aggression issues. I also was watching other young kids in my house at the time.  It was a very hard and trying time and there were times that I thought of giving up.  I used a basket muzzle(NOT a nylon one!)when out on leash,  along with safe confinement(metal crate in locked room), NILIF and behavior modification for months, maybe even a year.  Faust went on to get his CGC and now loves playing fetch with kids and strangers.  It is doable, however it is a LOT of hard & focused work. 

If you can't work with him then the alternate reality might be to have Caine PTS sadly.  The chances of finding a home for a pit bull who has behavior probs and has already bitten and drawn blood... is really next to nil, nevermind a responsible one willing to take him in and work with him.  Not to mention the legal liability if he bites someone else in a new home.

I'm not saying that you have to do what I did, just that it will be a hard decision whatever you do.  All in all it is your household and you alone will know what will be the best for them.  Good luck!

[horsepoor21]

I think the use of a basket muzzle is a great idea while you see if extra obedience training and such would work . I would hate to see you have him PTS  And that way everyone would be safe .

All I know is , I'm super emotional about this subject as my sister in law's rottie , a super sweetheart that they had for years , grew up with 4 kids ,that we were around since puppyhood and while we were visiting , attacked my son (who was only a year old at the time ) for no reason whatsoever . He was also super protective of his family and had recently started to get nippy with visitors ( I did not find this out until afterwards .....)
This must be so hard for you , I'm be praying for you .

[mama23+pyrs2]

I think the use of a basket muzzle is a great idea while you see if extra obedience training and such would work . I would hate to see you have him PTS  And that way everyone would be safe .

All I know is , I'm super emotional about this subject as my sister in law's rottie , a super sweetheart that they had for years , grew up with 4 kids ,that we were around since puppyhood and while we were visiting , attacked my son (who was only a year old at the time ) for no reason whatsoever . He was also super protective of his family and had recently started to get nippy with visitors ( I did not find this out until afterwards .....)
This must be so hard for you , I'm be praying for you .

Ugh, omg how awful. My mother in laws, sister in law has a female Rottie too that I was always nervous for my daughter being around for the sheer fact, she is a Rottie (sorry but they don't have the best reps), she is quite large, and I didn't know a thing about her. She has also been raised around their 2 boys and they had always had Rotts with the boys growing up but still, I never was comfortable with it. After getting to know her some over the years I felt better but was always a bit uneasy. It's hard to trust someone else's dog. My cousin's daughter was attacked by a neighbors dog when she was just a little thing and had horrible facial injuries that took a lot of recovery and of course left scarring. It's just tragic when it happens.

I do believe ANY dog, no matter how large or small is capable of causing physical harm, they are indeed animals and not people as much as we would like to believe otherwise.

Steffanie, I agree with doing what you feel is neccessary in your situation. No one here knows what that really is except you. You are the one that has to deal with it on a daily basis, and the one that is going to have to take on the burden of trying to fix it. No one else here will have to deal with whatever decision you make and any possible consequences. I support your decision and that it will be the best one you can make. You aren't superwoman and sometimes you can't fix every situation or dog and you've got a very full plate there. I hope you can find a solution that makes everyone happy.