Author Topic: New Member in need of help - Agression problems with Siberian and Mal  (Read 25377 times)

Offline Cymbaline

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Hi everyone - My name is Cymbaline and I'm located in Austin, Texas.

I'm sorry I'm not giving a formal introduction I'll be happy to fill in any gaps later :)

I apologize ahead of time for this being so long and if this is posted in the wrong area :(

I think I maybe faced with a problem with two of my dogs. I own 1 male malamute (Amadeus) and 1 male Siberian and malamute mix (Bandit).

We adopted both from an animal shelter. Both live outside in a 200 square foot pen. My boyfriend and I spend as much time as possible with both dogs. On average this equals to 30 to 45 minutes a day with the dogs.

Both dogs are neutered. I can not claim both are obedient dogs however both are highly intelligent and can hit any obedience training command right off the bat.

That saying they both have their quirks which makes them both very unobedient as well.

Amadeus is an escape artist. This we recognized in him from the start so we built the pen to be as tough as possible. The pen is made with wire fencing made to contain horse. The bottom of the pen as chicken wire buried into the dirt, The top of the pen has electric wire and the pen door is chained and padlocked.

Amadeus however in the last 4 years we have had both dogs has managed to break out of the pen twice.


This being said today was the second time. When I left to go to work this morning both dogs where in the pen. I know because I through them their morning raw hide treat, say good morning and give them both some ear scratches before I leave.

This afternoon both dogs where in the pen. I know because I gave them both a chicken jerky, gave them ear scratches, checked and filled up their water.

Later however I have man knock on my door and tell me that both of my dogs had gotten out today and killed his pet rabbit. I follow him to his house and he shows me his pet rabbit which is still laying on his back porch, the broken down hutch etc.

He tells me that someone had informed him that they saw my dogs loose and someone else had put my dogs back into their pen.

I apologize to him, ask him if there is anything I can please do for him. I do not know what to say concerning this because I have never dealt with this type of problem before. I understand that he has to be mad at me concerning this issue. I would be mad as well. I honestly wish there is something I could do for the man but I know I can not.

The owner of the rabbit informs me that he thought his house had been vandalized prior to seeing the dead rabbit and had called the police to file a report.

He believes the police will label my dogs as dangerous dogs. I disagree that this will come down to that. I know recently there was a little girl who did get mauled by a pack a dogs in my neighborhood. At that time there was not leash law. There supposely is a leash law now in my neighborhood. I was one who supported that law. However there are still several dogs running loose in my neighborhood. The same dogs running loose prior to the leash law coming into effect are still running loose in my neighborhood so I don't think the law is really being enforced all to well.

I feel if the police does do anything to me it maybe a fine for having my dogs running loose. There isn't a law that states they have to be registered by the way.

Also in Texas for a dog to be labeled "dangerous dog" it must have attacked a human.

Ok so well.. back to my problem...

Even with all of the above do not feel I do not feel regret for what happened. I do all too well because I love animals. I'm hurt my dogs did what they do however I also know dogs are dogs and rabbits are prey animals.

I feel my dogs did what came naturally to them. I also feel it's my responsibility to ensure this does not happen again and here is why I'm coming to you all.


I need advice. I feel my dogs do have a higher prey drive. I do suspect they may have aggressive tendencies. I have some grounds to feel this way however I never had an incident which proves they are.

My dogs have done the following which scares me.

1. Gave short chase to a kid on a bike
2. My dog Bandit did growl on two different incidents when a little kid got in his face
3. Killed that rabbit (not sure which did it)
4. My dog Bandit chased after a flock of ducks once
5. My dog Amadeus once attacked another malamute at the dog park (according to the owner)

The deal is I donít want to make excuses and end up with something really happening.  Besides trying to re-enforce their pen, maybe try to get them more exercise (which is hard because I myself hate exercise and here being hot weather right now) what else is there that I can try?

Iíve considered more obedience training however like I said before they can hit any lesson taught with flying colors no problems. I donít have a problem with obedience when dealing with them one on one.

But together they seem more unruly. Iím considering the following.

1.   Find a home for one of the dogs. I donít know which one because I love both. But maybe when I do Iíll find a more submissive, calmer older spayed female as a companion for one.

I may actually find Amadeus a new home since he is the one that has the tendency to try and break loose all the time. This may resolve one problem.

But I fear that Bandit may have aggression issues (which Amadeus has not shown towards people) and I need to deal with that.

OkÖ please help. Please be nice guys. I donít know anyone here yet. I know everyone is a critic in life but I feel bad enough. I know my dogs have done wrong. I know I need to do something. I take blame and with that I want to take action I just need to know what is the best course.

Thank You
Cymbaline

SaraphWolf79

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Hiya Cymbaline and welcome to the site!

You and I dear appear to have the same problem - dogs that are master escape artists.  For one, the breed you have gives off a good clue...malamut es and especially siberian huskies, from what I'm learning (it's a slow, frustrating process, believe you me) are born to run.  It's in their blood.  Mine has already escaped from the yard 4 times now in the last 3 months I've owned him.  Fortunately, each time some kind person found him and returned him to me.  He's not an aggressive dog by any means (he's neutered as well) but even still, the times he's gotten loose and is gone off on one of his wild running sprees around town worries the heck out of me not only because he may get hit by a car, he may by chance hurt someone or another animal. 

I also have a German Shepherd and Chow.  They were basically raised together, and are like sisters.  The German Shepherd is stunningly clever when it comes to getting out of the yard.  She knows how to open gates and I've had to put locks on all of the latches so she isn't able to open them.  When one idea fails to work, she tries another...it takes a little time, but she always finds another way, is always one step ahead of the game.  We cemented all the way around the fence and she still finds her way out.  We eventually had an 8 ft wooden fence put up - that worked for almost two years, I was actually starting to become convinced we had won the battle...appar ently not won the war, however lol.  In one night, while we were sleeping, she tore a hole in the fence and squeezed her way out.  *sighs* 

Except for that, both girls mind well, but when they're together, watch out.  Naga, the German Shepherd, listens better than my Chow, but even still, separately, they both act like little angels.  When you get them together, it's like two demon spawns from h*ll.  Always up to something, always planning something, always getting into trouble.  If I could, I'd give one away, but I don't have the heart to separate the two, they've been together for 10 years now, and it would be cruel to break their bond now.

I wish there was some kind of advice I could give you for your babies.  It doesn't sound like they're bad dogs at all - you just have to constantly be one step ahead of them.  If you ever need someone to vent your pup frustrations on, you can always talk to me.  I'm here for ya!

-Carrie     

Offline DixieSugarBear

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He tells me that someone had informed him that they saw my dogs loose and someone else had put my dogs back into their pen.

Have you talked to the person that saw the dog loose? Have you talked to the persona that put the dogs back in the pen?  Could the rabbit have been killed by the other loose dogs?
 

You may want to try kongs or some toys to keep them busy during the long hours spent in the pen.  Is is possible to spend several hours a day with them, maybe inside the home during the evening hours?


Lisa


Lisa, owned by the following:
Sugar Bear - Great Pyrenees 4.5 yr.
Dixie Darlin - Great Pyrenees 4 yr.
Penny Lane - Great Pyrenees 2.5 yr.
Beauman - Great Pyrenees 14 months
Izzy - Great Pyrenees 14 month
Rosie - Great Pyrenees (at the bridge)

Offline waffles717

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Sounds like you cound have a problem! but being he is outside this would be a sulution at night,I would use a Muzzle! just for the times of really Bordon, when you know he could be aGssvise,he will not be able to get out,and during the day give things he really likes so at so by night time he eat's gets his muzzels then he can's get out!! by then he will calm down and also vet's do give things to dog's to help this is all fails But will Muzzel HE will not be able to Chew!!!or Hurt any one!!!Only a thought!!!!Hope I Helped!!M,L,!!!
This Beethoven, he went to vet yesterday, he is 36 pound and only 9 weeks old!

BabsT

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I am sorry but you cant expect to working breeds of dogs to be content in a pen and only getting 45 minutes of attention a day even if you gave them all the kongs in the world.  They need to be stimulated physically and mentally

your dogs are bored and need something to do.  Givethem a job, strap a harness to them take them for hikes..somethi ng...If you yourself hate exercise, why would you get dogs that need tons of exercise?

I am out of the house at either 4 or 5 am to take my dog for his walk and wait until sometimes 10pm when it is cool enough to do our 3 miles...He also can do it in the middle of the day when it is 90 and humbid but I rather it be enjoying for him

add a top to the pen to it to prevent them from jumping over. Electric fencing doesnt phase most dogs.
 
How old are the dogs?  I am surprised that two male nordic breeds are ok with each other.  I could be because they are not mature yet

Muzzling is not going to solve any problem if anything it will add to it making the dog even more frustrated.

Enroll in some OB training and work them everday with it...

I can be rather harsh and I am sorry for that but you owe it to them to exercise and take on the full responsibilty of owning a dog

Good Luck


Offline DixieSugarBear

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If it were me I would have to find a way to bring them inside the home and spend at least a few hours a day with them.

Lisa
Lisa, owned by the following:
Sugar Bear - Great Pyrenees 4.5 yr.
Dixie Darlin - Great Pyrenees 4 yr.
Penny Lane - Great Pyrenees 2.5 yr.
Beauman - Great Pyrenees 14 months
Izzy - Great Pyrenees 14 month
Rosie - Great Pyrenees (at the bridge)

Offline Cymbaline

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Hi Zero -

I'm not going to defend why or why not I have any type of dog or how I live my life.
That being said - feel free to keep trying to judge me but you do not know me well enough to have that right.


I agree I need to get them more exercise. I'll see to how I work that out. Thank You for that suggestion Zero -

I currently take them to the dog park once or twice a week. I have been slacking since it's summer and they don't really seem to want to do anything when we go.


About the electric fence - my dogs have never jumped over the fence- nor can they touch the electric wire.

My dogs are about 4 years old. They get along great.

OB Training... you must have not read my whole post.


I agree with having more exercise- once again I thank you for that




Offline Cymbaline

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Hiya Cymbaline and welcome to the site!

You and I dear appear to have the same problem - dogs that are master escape artists.  For one, the breed you have gives off a good clue...malamut es and especially siberian huskies, from what I'm learning (it's a slow, frustrating process, believe you me) are born to run.  It's in their blood.  Mine has already escaped from the yard 4 times now in the last 3 months I've owned him.  Fortunately, each time some kind person found him and returned him to me.  He's not an aggressive dog by any means (he's neutered as well) but even still, the times he's gotten loose and is gone off on one of his wild running sprees around town worries the heck out of me not only because he may get hit by a car, he may by chance hurt someone or another animal.  
     

Thank You Carrie -

You hit the nail on the head for me - that and others as well.  I'm going to try and find a way to get them more exercise. I however no longer have much choice on walking them myself.

When I first got my two boys I was able to take them out more often. I do take them to the dog park on the weekends however now that it's summer we don't take spend as much time there. Even at night they run around for 20 mins and then just lay around at my feet.

I'm going to make an effort to look into more possibilities - if anyone here has any suggestions please let me know.

Cym

Offline Cymbaline

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If it were me I would have to find a way to bring them inside the home and spend at least a few hours a day with them.

Lisa


Lisa - I'll try that and see how it works- I think they do need more exercise though. Being inside the house actually makes Bandit pace. Amadeus doesn't mind, he just lays there and chills out.

I do take them in when feeding them, They eat in the house with me and hang around while I do dishes and chores before I retire at night.

Thanks for the suggestion... guess I'll be working on the hair.

Offline RedyreRottweilers

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Your dogs are showing you that they do not have enough exercise or mental stimulation in their lives.

Bored dogs get into trouble.

I would suggest some intersting toys, such as a large rope with a big knot on it hanging from overhead for them to play tug with.

Mine love these little tires I got for them that are specifically made as a dog toy.

Lots of dogs love the big round hard balls called boomer balls.

Carefully hiding small treats all over their exercise area can be a really fun exercise for many dogs.

You also need to do whatever is necessary to make SURE you have an escape proof area for your dogs.

In many areas, a dog would be declared viscious, and either siezed and destroyed, or the owner required to have insurance, special confinement, and muzzled off properly if they kill a small animal while at large.

So, as you have indicated you already know, this is a very serious issue.

You mention you might be concerned about one dog having human aggression issues. Can you describe why you feel this way?

Dog/dog issues, or the prey driven chasing or killing of small animals does not generally translate to human aggression problems. It's basically normal dog behavior that is not seen frequently because of the way we socialize and manage our dogs.

Best of luck, it's a ticklish issue for sure, and it sounds like you are trying your best to figure a solution.
Redyre Rottweilers
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Offline Cymbaline

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Re: New Member in need of help - Agression problems with Siberian and Mal
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2005, 08:10:08 am »
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He tells me that someone had informed him that they saw my dogs loose and someone else had put my dogs back into their pen.

Have you talked to the person that saw the dog loose? Have you talked to the persona that put the dogs back in the pen?  Could the rabbit have been killed by the other loose dogs?
 

You may want to try kongs or some toys to keep them busy during the long hours spent in the pen.  Is is possible to spend several hours a day with them, maybe inside the home during the evening hours?


Lisa


Hey Lisa again -

Do dogs actually do anything with those Kongs other than just lick the contents out? lol mine do not chew on them. I do however give them bully sticks, rawhide etc to chew up. Toys... forget it lol they don't care for any expect stuffed toys but only so they can tear them up.

Thanks for the suggestion, would love more from you.

Cymbaline

BabsT

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Re: New Member in need of help - Agression problems with Siberian and Mal
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2005, 08:10:48 am »
they have to be getting out somehow...eith er that or your dogs had nothing to do with the incident...if they arent digging under and they arent jumping over then they have to be getting out somehow.  My  sisters Anatolian would go through an electric fence like it was nothing

You are right, I dont know you or your dogs and the only thing I can go by is what you posted.  You said they do good in OB but not together, then you need to work at both of them listening to you at the same time

In regards to killing a rabbit your dogs were only being dogs and that is no fault of their own...I mean did they go into the rabbits hutch and destroy the cage or was the rabbit out and about.  A dog can not distinguish a pet from a wild animal

The reason they are unruly together is because you have the pack mentality setting out for a hunt it seems

I can be harsh, I wont deny that and I apologized from the get go but your opening sentence is your whole problem.

Offline Cymbaline

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Re: New Member in need of help - Agression problems with Siberian and Mal
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2005, 08:22:47 am »
Hey  RedyreRottweil ers - Thanks to all of you... I do now really realize they need more exercise. I agree. both dogs are highly intelligent and use to have more exercise. However unfortunately in the last year I myself can no longer give them what they use to get.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You for your positive suggestions you are giving me ...please give me more suggestions for toys!! Mine do not seem to play with any expect ones they can eat and tearup.

I bought two of those trick balls.. the hard ones that you can hide treats in them and they should roll around to get the treats to come out. Amadaus tore it up.

The reasons why I fear they may have agression issues is for the following reasons:

1. Gave short chase to a kid on a bike
2. My dog Bandit did growl on two different incidents when a little kid got in his face
3. Killed that rabbit (not sure which did it)
4. My dog Bandit chased after a flock of ducks once
5. My dog Amadeus once attacked another malamute at the dog park (according to the owner)

Those are the only things that have happend but it's enough in my mind to warrant concern. Bandit concerned me when he made a kinda growl at this one kid who was slapping at his face (trying to pet him) I don't know if he was just having a bad day but he did this twice in one day. He was on a leash during this time and being crowded by kids all trying to pet him.

On the other hand. another other times in petsmart he rolls right over and wants his belly scratched. Amadeus.. oh loves kids, loves people, always wants to be petted etc.

I do not know were to to begin finding out if they have agression or a tendency for aggression.  I feel that killing the rabbit does not warrant them agressive. I'm sure they rabbit panicking in it's hutch excited them.

Any suggestions on how to diagnosis if they do have agression issues?

Cym

Offline DixieSugarBear

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Re: New Member in need of help - Agression problems with Siberian and Mal
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2005, 08:35:49 am »
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Hey Lisa again -

Do dogs actually do anything with those Kongs other than just lick the contents out? lol mine do not chew on them. I do however give them bully sticks, rawhide etc to chew up. Toys... forget it lol they don't care for any expect stuffed toys but only so they can tear them up.

Thanks for the suggestion, would love more from you.

Cymbaline
Quote

My babies grandma goes to the second hand stores and buys bags of stuffed toys at $2.00 per bag.  I give Sugar Bear and Dixie new toys several time a week. At that price they can have a ball killing a new toy. I know that the breeds you have a very different from Great Pyrenees, but the more time I spend with my babies the better they are.  I take my dogs to work with me and they sleep most of the day under my desk.  Good luck, I am sure you love you babies and will do what every is best for your family.

Lisa

Lisa, owned by the following:
Sugar Bear - Great Pyrenees 4.5 yr.
Dixie Darlin - Great Pyrenees 4 yr.
Penny Lane - Great Pyrenees 2.5 yr.
Beauman - Great Pyrenees 14 months
Izzy - Great Pyrenees 14 month
Rosie - Great Pyrenees (at the bridge)

Offline RedyreRottweilers

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Re: New Member in need of help - Agression problems with Siberian and Mal
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2005, 08:38:09 am »
Hey  RedyreRottweil
The reasons why I fear they may have agression issues is for the following reasons:

1. Gave short chase to a kid on a bike

This is prey drive/herding/chasing/territorial behavior.  Very common in dogs. Management (proper confinement, leashed when not fenced) will prevent this.
Quote
2. My dog Bandit did growl on two different incidents when a little kid got in his face

And how would YOU like it if someone you did not know came right up to you and put their head/face right up to yours? It's your job to see to it your dog is not put into a position where he is compelled by his very instict to do something not considered appropriate in human society. I tell people almost daily, DO NOT PUT YOUR FACE OR HEAD NEXT TO MY DOG's. Dogs do NOT consider this a friendly gesture unless it's coming from an intimate pack member that they view as a superior. This is a key reason why SO many people, esp kids, get bitten in the face. Control these interaction, and tell people DO NOT put your head next to the dog's. Then you have a great opportunity to explain why. It's viewed as a dominance/control gesture by dogs. Some will tolerate it. Some won't.

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3. Killed that rabbit (not sure which did it)

This is prey behavior. Not associated with aggression towards humans usually. It's natural instinctive behavior.

Quote
4. My dog Bandit chased after a flock of ducks once
Same as #1. Chase/prey/herding behavior. Manage as described above.

Quote
5. My dog Amadeus once attacked another malamute at the dog park (according to the owner)

Again, I would not tend to feel that this would translate to aggression towards humans. Mals are a working group dog, and many adult dogs of working types will not tolerate other adult dogs of the same sex. I personally would NEVER visit an area where I was certain that other dogs of an unknown size, breed, and aggression status would be off leash. TOOO many uncontrollable variables for me.

One other thing that my dogs just love are big plastic soda or juice bottles. I take off the caps and the little ring underneath, and let them have at it. They LOVE these things. They can toss them, and manipulate them, and destroy them, they make a cool noise when they are chewing them. I have one dog who was a kennel dog. She was so destructive when I tried to integrate her into my household pack. Being able to "kill and destroy" these soda bottles changed her life. She always has something to take her frustrations out on, and she dearly loves them.

They do need to be used under supervision, and inspected regularly and the really torn up ones disposed of.

Good luck with your boys, it's clear you care, and are trying to find some workable solutions.
Redyre Rottweilers
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