Pano- Food Question

[mama23+pyrs2]

Bless his heart, this boy can catch a break. I was hoping Yukon's wouldn't spread but just go away..wishful thinking I know. As of yesterday he started acting funny on the LEFT front leg and now here he is holding it up, exactly like the other one started. I feel so bad for him. Since I know it's not run it's course yet, I may get him on some of Linda's supplements I've read about, but I do question the Eagle Pack food she recommends. It seems to have some questionable ingredients and doesn't rate as highly as what I feed them now on the dogfoodanalysi s site- for those reasons. Could I add in the supplements she recommends and not change his food and expect to see any improvement you think? He's been on Canidae since he was just a babe and has recently switched to Innova adult. Still isn't eating much, maybe a cup a day. Thanks for your help!

[People Whisperer]

Poor Yukon 
Playing with supplements is very dangerous while he is going through some orthopedic issues.
I sent you a PM 

[mama23+pyrs2]

Poor Yukon 
Playing with supplements is very dangerous while he is going through some orthopedic issues.
I sent you a PM 

I replied to you but timed out in doing so and lost it! I will write again later.

[Pyr Heaven]

The 2 ingredients that bothered me were the beet pulp and the chicken fat..neither of which are contained in either Canidae or Innova..so I'm not sure I would want to add them ya know? The rest of it looks good to me.

I agree that Innova should be ok as it is still in the right protein and fat range. I hope the poor boy feels better soon!

In regards to Eagle Pack, I was feeding Miles Canidae and just recently switched him to Eagle Pack Large and Giant Breed formula because of the study they have done on that food. It just amazes me that no dog that had been on that food had ever developed, HOD, OCD, or Pano (at least when they tested it.) Also, I like the fact that Eagle Pack is made in it's own plant (which happens to be in my hometown!) They always put a reason behind the ingredients they use...and have done a ton of research.

Regarding the beet pulp, I got this from the Eagle Pack website:
Today science is touting the benefits of fiber in human diets to prevent chronic disease. Fiber has similar benefits in pet food diets. Pharmacologica l doses of fiber (1) (less than 5%), that contains both rapidly and moderately fermentable fiber is recommended in foods for healthy pets. Beet pulp fits that description better than any other fiber. (1) Quality fiber aids in the management of diabetes, colitis and constipation. It absorbs water or gives it up, as necessary, for good health, and correct amounts regulate healthy transit time in the colon. When used correctly in pet food formulas, beet pulp is an excellent fiber source, a partial Prebiotic and aids in the prevention of the diseases noted. Research suggests it may aid in fighting colon cancer, decreases pathogenic bacteria and aids gut health. It is a recommended fiber for pets suffering from gastrointestin al issues (1), IBD, etc.

Some manufacturers state that excess fiber will mask some health issues, and this is true. However, note the word excess. (One brand considers 12% as excessive.) Neither Eagle Pack nor other brands use excess beet pulp. Eagle Pack uses less than the 5% pharmacologica l percent noted above, and we use it for the health benefits noted. Silver Charm, the 1996 Kentucky Derby winner, was fed a special diet that contained Beet Pulp. 

Beet Pulp gently massages intestinal walls to remove mucus on a daily basis. If beet pulp is not used, very often mucus builds up on the intestinal wall and inhibits nutrient absorption. About every 30-days so much has built up, it lets go and comes out in the form of mucus covered stools.

Beet Pulp is derived from sugar beets that are greyish in color. Beet Pulp used in Eagle Pack formulas contain less than 1% sugar. The amount of sugar from beet pulp in the final formula is 0.0003%, basically zero. Beet Pulp used by sugar producers is 4-times more expensive than when we buy it. From a pure economic standpoint, sugar producers want to extract as much sugar as possible.

[mama23+pyrs2]

Thanks Holly. The 2 ingredients that bothered me were the beet pulp and the chicken fat..neither of which are contained in either Canidae or Innova..so I'm not sure I would want to add them ya know? The rest of it looks good to me.

Chicken fat is a good thing--it's one of my top choices for a fat source in dog foot.  Also, Innova Adult does include it, and I thought Canidae did, too.

Beet pulp is a little more controversial.  As PH points out, the Eagle Pack site tells all the good things about it.  The dogfoodanalysi s site tells all the bad things about it.  I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in between.

Okay, thanks again. Been doing more reading and have been on the Eagle Pack site awhile. Gonna make some calls today to see where I can find it if I decide to switch them. I didn't realize the Innova had the chicken fat too..I guessed I skimmed right over and missed that one, wouldn't surprise since I seem to do a lot of that lately.

His leg has gotten worse already. But it's to be expected I know. He's done really well on the food he's been on and it's had the correct amts, so it's not like I've been feeding him the wrong thing, and of course Yiska has had no problems. No, he doesn't hardly eat but he also isn't really an active dog and until I get him neutered, he's not allowed to play with his sister because he has become unrelenting. His is a big boy, seems to be growing well (at least upwards) just not gaining and is a lightweight for now.

[People Whisperer]

Is he growing at all? What is his weight now?

[mama23+pyrs2]

Is he growing at all? What is his weight now?

Yeah, I believe he is growing..I haven't measured him again lately. He really is gaining I GUESS just incredibly SLOWLY. He only weighs 62 pounds and is 9 months old. He weighed about 60 lbs at 6 months old though. Isn't that weird? But with his lack of appetite with the pain he dropped some..probably about 10 and has to slowly gain that back. If he hardly eats, I don't see it happening though. They just seem to have little interest in food. If I add somthing to it and mix it in, they will eat the entire bowl..otherwis e they could care less. I don't know how much Yiska weighs but she has still been staying about the same size behind him, like always..so they must be growing consistently. I know his crate is 34.5 inches high and he has to hunch over when he sits in it and when he stands his head squishes against the top. That's how I can tell he's growing lol...at least taller.

[mountaindogmom]

Wow that seems really small.  Jack is at about 100 lbs now and he is on the thin side.  He just turned 9 months old two days ago.  Since he is a male I would think he would be substantially bigger than Yiska by this point.  Based on that and the pano I think a food change is in order.  Maybe he'll like another food better and therefore be included to eat more.

P.S. I also pmailed ya!

[mama23+pyrs2]

Wow that seems really small.  Jack is at about 100 lbs now and he is on the thin side.  He just turned 9 months old two days ago.  Since he is a male I would think he would be substantially bigger than Yiska by this point.  Based on that and the pano I think a food change is in order.  Maybe he'll like another food better and therefore be included to eat more.

P.S. I also pmailed ya!

Yeah, I know. He was gaining 10 lbs a month until after 6 months then I don't know what happened but he just slacked off in everything. If Yukon were 100 lbs though, he would surely NOT be thin lol. He is not boney and I can feel fat over his ribs still (a very thin layer that should be normal) so I know he's not emaciated or anything, but add another 40 lbs to him at this point and he's be one chubby dog, I can't imagine. I'm sure he has lost a lot of his muscle mass from being so inactive since that weighs more than fat. Jack is also A LOT more active than Yukon and I imagine his muscle mass is much more abundant than Yukon's. Is Jack fixed yet?

I'm quite positive Yiska weighs more at this point and eventhough shes got a lot smaller structure and is several inches shorter, she isn't chubby either.

[mama23+pyrs2]

I take that back, he is boney. He didn't feel that way last time I felt him, his fur will surely fool you. He could definitely stand to gain some weight geez. It almost appears one of his back legs is now also affected.

I got your PM and will write back just as soon as I get a chance..

[People Whisperer]

My vet told me that with Lily (and probably with other Pyrs) you can't go just by feeling their ribs. They have very thick and heavy skin (to fight bears  ) so their ribs would be fine most of the time. For example, Lily is at 80 lbs right now. She is 14 months. When I touch her ribs she seems very healthy and perfect weight BUT her hip and spine bones are sticking out and she need to gain at least another 4-6 lbs to have healthy weight.

I agree, Yukon is way too small at this point 

[London_Pyr_Lover]

OHHHH!!!  Poor Yukon!!  My heart breaks a little bit every time I read that he's still not better.  I'm actually wiping tears away from my face now.  Please give him a big hug from Naja and I.  I'm really hoping all this passes soon.  I can't begin to think of how hard this has been on your whole family.
Big hugs for you, Yukon, and Yiska.  

[mountaindogmom]

Wow that seems really small.  Jack is at about 100 lbs now and he is on the thin side.  He just turned 9 months old two days ago.  Since he is a male I would think he would be substantially bigger than Yiska by this point.  Based on that and the pano I think a food change is in order.  Maybe he'll like another food better and therefore be included to eat more.

P.S. I also pmailed ya!

Yeah, I know. He was gaining 10 lbs a month until after 6 months then I don't know what happened but he just slacked off in everything. If Yukon were 100 lbs though, he would surely NOT be thin lol. He is not boney and I can feel fat over his ribs still (a very thin layer that should be normal) so I know he's not emaciated or anything, but add another 40 lbs to him at this point and he's be one chubby dog, I can't imagine. I'm sure he has lost a lot of his muscle mass from being so inactive since that weighs more than fat. Jack is also A LOT more active than Yukon and I imagine his muscle mass is much more abundant than Yukon's. Is Jack fixed yet?

Jack was neutered at 5 months of age.  I think he is pretty tall for his age.  He's taller than Greta and she is about 27" at the shoulder.  When he sits, the top of his head is almost to my hip and I'm 5' 6".  I know that there's some research that indicates when males are neutered on the early side, they can get slightly larger than if you would neutuer them later due to the fact that testosterone is the signal to the body to stop growth at a certain age, and when you neuter you reduce the testosterone level, so that could play into it.

[mama23+pyrs2]

Wow that seems really small.  Jack is at about 100 lbs now and he is on the thin side.  He just turned 9 months old two days ago.  Since he is a male I would think he would be substantially bigger than Yiska by this point.  Based on that and the pano I think a food change is in order.  Maybe he'll like another food better and therefore be included to eat more.

P.S. I also pmailed ya!

Yeah, I know. He was gaining 10 lbs a month until after 6 months then I don't know what happened but he just slacked off in everything. If Yukon were 100 lbs though, he would surely NOT be thin lol. He is not boney and I can feel fat over his ribs still (a very thin layer that should be normal) so I know he's not emaciated or anything, but add another 40 lbs to him at this point and he's be one chubby dog, I can't imagine. I'm sure he has lost a lot of his muscle mass from being so inactive since that weighs more than fat. Jack is also A LOT more active than Yukon and I imagine his muscle mass is much more abundant than Yukon's. Is Jack fixed yet?

Jack was neutered at 5 months of age.  I think he is pretty tall for his age.  He's taller than Greta and she is about 27" at the shoulder.  When he sits, the top of his head is almost to my hip and I'm 5' 6".  I know that there's some research that indicates when males are neutered on the early side, they can get slightly larger than if you would neutuer them later due to the fact that testosterone is the signal to the body to stop growth at a certain age, and when you neuter you reduce the testosterone level, so that could play into it.

Right. I knew neutering played some part in their growth, I just wasn't sure what. I know unaltered males tend to stay on the thinner side though, and I do expect him to gain some after he's been neutered. I plan to do it next month after my next payday.. I'm just wondering if him dealing with Pano will have any effect on it? I just HAVE to get him fixed so they can be out together, it's gotten completely ridiculous, he won't leave her alone for a second. I think between the Pano and the surgery he is just going to feel incredibly lousy for awhile. Time to get him a nice cozy place to lay (if he will, he likes hard things) and some extra nice chewies.

[mountaindogmom]

Oh yeah, I didn't realized they weren't fixed yet.  Better be EXTRA careful or you''ll have puppies on your hands and that would not be good at all!  I think you have enough on your plate from the sounds of it! 

When Jack was neutered he was a little drowsy the first day we brought him home and then he was back to usual the next day.  We even stopped his pain meds to try and slow him down a little bit because he was obviously feeling no pain based on the amount of energy he had - that didn't even slow him down.  As for laying somewhere soft, Jack will almost never lay on a bed.  We have like 6 different huge dog beds around the house and a couple of sheepskin rugs and he always lays on the hardwood or tile floor.  He did lay on one of the beds for the first week or so after his elbow surgery but only because we kept him on a leash and didn't let him move around.  So good luck with that!  I think it's a Pyr thing to prefer the hard cool surface.