Author Topic: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)  (Read 9219 times)

Offline Amy (guffer)

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Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)
« on: October 12, 2007, 07:11:59 am »
This is only the second time that they've fought since we adopted the boys in June.  Once it was over food and this time I think it was over a Nylabone.  The first time Apollo started it, and this time Zeus.  Each time it seemed to start out of the blue.  They eat together everyday and chew their toys together all the time without incident.

Last night we were sitting around watching TV.  Apollo was lying on the couch with Hubby, and Zeus was sleeping on the floor with his Nylabone near his front paws.  I heard Zeus let out a little growl, and before I had a chance to correct him, he lunged at Apollo.  Apollo leaped off the couch and they both started going at it.  My 2 year old was in the room and he was crying so hard.  It was a really scary site.  Anyway, Hubby and I jumped up and I pulled Zeus away by his collar and Hubby tried to pull Apollo back.  Thats when he got bit.  I pushed Zeus outside and turned to look at Hubby, and I saw his shirt sleeve turning red with blood.  His wound was pretty deep on the top of his forearm and he also had a hole on the bottom that was open, but not bleeding.  I needed to tend to his arm, so I put Apollo outside with Zeus, who had already calmed down.  Both dogs walked toward each other and started licking and nuzzling each other like they were apologizing and making up.  They've been fine ever since.  We brought them back in for the night and they've been acting like nothing happened. 

So now, I guess my question for the board is - How do I prevent this from happening in the future?  For the night we removed the bone that I think set Zeus off, but I can't keep all the toys out of the house forever.  The dogs are young and tend to chew when they're bored, so I want to have appropriate chew materials around.  99.9% of the time these guys are the most gentle and tolerant dogs I have ever known.  The little yorkies jump and nip in their faces all the time and the big dogs don't even notice them.  They are always tolerant of the children bumping into them and hugging on them and such.  And if I hadn't witnessed the fight last night with my own eyes, I wouldn't even believe they had it in them to be so aggressive with each other.

Have any other pyr owners seen this type of aggression toward another dog?  Did I mention that I suspect Zeus and Apollo are littermates since the vet says they're the same age and they were found straying together by Animal Control?  Maybe this has something to do with their aggression only towards each other?  I wish I knew more about their background.  They were both neutered in July, so hormones shouldn't be an issue.  I just can't figure this out.

For now, we're not doing anything different with the dogs.  We've instructed our boys to not go near the big dogs if they start fighting again.  We've showed them Daddy's wound on his arm and explained how the dogs fur will protect them if they fight, but that their arms could get hurt badly if they tried to intervene.  I don't know what else to do.  I keep thinking what if my little 2 year old got in the middle by accident.  I guess this just reinforces why little ones always need to be supervised around dogs.  Even the ones you trust the most can surprise you. 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 10:17:40 pm by guffer »

Offline nickerbokker

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2007, 07:37:39 am »
my advice is not great....i dont really know what im doing i just make it up as i go....

but first off..when dogs fight, pull them apart by the back legs.  i read it on here first, hoping i would never HAVE to...and i have, several times.  you are MUCH less likely to get injured if you get them from their hind legs.  AND, its much easier (they are so neck strong). 

then second...my dogs are the same way.  they chew on toys AND eachother usually with no problem, but if they get something REALLY neat..."that other dog better not try to take mine".  food time, they eat at opposite sides of the kitchen (because it calms MY nerves), and if they get special toys (like nylabones), one is in one is out. 

i'm sure there is some magical trick someone on here will tell you about soon, but i dont know it...so i just play it safe. 

i'm sorry they got into a fight...its always scary.  and im REALLY glad your baby wasn't RIGHT there...and that it sounds like your hubby isn't TOO hurt...and of course, the dogs are fine lol. 

good luck with the kids

nickers
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 01:38:52 pm by nickerbokker »
NICKI

Offline navarre1316

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2007, 07:57:24 am »
There has been some mention in other posts about resource guarding, and this sounds like what it is.  I've been told to get a book by Jean Donaldson titled "Mine".  This is an aggression issue and it can get worse from what I understand.  Issy does it with her toys but not to the extent of a full on fight, at least not yet.  So when I see her started that particular body language (or in your case a low growl) I tell her to "leave it".  This has been a great command, along with "drop it", that she has learned and has helped a lot!  Good luck to you.
God placed me on this earth to accomplish certain tasks...I'm so far behind I'll never die!!

Navarre: GSD 9/13/99-5/14/06 patiently waiting
Issabeaux: GSD 1/27/07
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Offline Amy (guffer)

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2007, 05:26:22 pm »
Thanks for the advice, guys!  Hopefully I won't have to break up another fight, but if I do, I'll try the back leg thing.  I'll have to check Amazon for that book, too.  Anything to gain some understanding about why they got so aggressive with one another.  And next time I hear that low growl, I'll be sure to act faster to correct him. 

Amy

Offline Amy (guffer)

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2007, 10:16:51 pm »
 :(  Okay, it's midnight and I'm at work.  Just got a call from Hubby and he said that Zeus tried to attack Apollo twice tonight.  Hubby caught him the first time when he started to growl, but the second time there was no warning.  Hubby was bringing both dogs inside and was wiping Zeus' paws with a towel.  Apollo had laid down waiting for his turn like usual.  When hubby finished with Zeus, he just lunged after Apollo for no reason.  No food or toys around.  Hubby said he considered going for Zeus' legs to pull him back off Apollo, but he didn't want to stick his face down there with all the teeth flyin'.  He finally pulled Zeus off by the scruff of his neck, but not before he cut Apollo's ear pretty badly. 

You guys, I really need your help.  The kids are getting scared and Hubby is starting to worry about our 2 year old getting caught up in the middle of one of these fights.  I'm afraid he's going to give up on Zeus and want to call the Pyr Rescue if we can't figure out what to do with him.  A friend advised me to practice an "alpha roll" on Zeus by putting him on his back and holding him in this submisive position until he relaxes.  I saw Cesar Millan do this with other aggressive dogs on the Dog Whisperer.  I also plan to increase his exercise and make sure I walk them together as a pack.  We already make the dogs sit before meals and sit before going outside or coming inside.  I've always been able to train my dogs without any help in the past, but I think I need to sign him up for obedience classes, too.

I don't know if this is related to his aggression, but he tends to challenge us occasionally by table surfing and chewing up things he's not supposed to.  He's also difficult to groom because he tries to mouth the brush and he tries to escape.  He also will look into your eyes and bark at you when he wants something.

You know, as I'm writing this, I'm realizing that it MUST all be related.  I've been looking past these symptoms all along and chalking it up to puppy/adolescent behavior, but it's really a lack of respect for our authority.  I've been going easy on him because he's a "rescue" but I think I've been wrong about him all along.  Zeus thinks he's alpha, and that must be why he attacks Apollo, who is much better behaved and somewhat submissive to us and Zeus.   

I'm totally rambling, I know.  Do I sound crazy, or am I maybe on the right track?  Input, please!!!  I'm kinda freakin' out!

Amy

Offline navarre1316

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2007, 10:38:21 pm »
I think you're on the rigth track, rambling and all!!!  Obedience is a must, and it sounds like NILF is too.  Typically I've only heard, and used, the alpha roll when the dog is aggressive to me/people, I would only use this as a last resort.  But you can do other things, if you're watching tv and he's laying down, sit next to him and make him stay in a down position and while he's still, and ONLY while he's still, he gets petted on.  I think if you start the obedience and NILF (he gets nothing until he does something that you tell him to do: sit, down) he'll start coming around pretty quickly.  Also if Apollo is satisfied with being in the submissive roll you also have to treat him like he is "below" Zeus.  He gets fed, let out the door, treats, etc AFTER Zeus does.  I read that somewhere too!!

And remember, rescue or not he is  a part of your family and needs to act accordingly.   Good luck
God placed me on this earth to accomplish certain tasks...I'm so far behind I'll never die!!

Navarre: GSD 9/13/99-5/14/06 patiently waiting
Issabeaux: GSD 1/27/07
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Offline patrick

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2007, 03:49:15 am »
I keep spray bottles around with a little vinegar or lemon juice and don't hesitate to use it- hopefully before the fight.  You learn to recognise the'look' which occurs before the growl and fight and the dog gets sprayed for the 'look'.  I have 8 Pyrs and this has been quite effective.  Also a bucket of water over their heads when they do fight usually instantly ends a fight. Even in the house- water is easier to clean up than blood!!  NILIF and learning OFF or LEAVE IT will also control this behavior but that takes some time to learn.  Hopefully they can learn to live together but same sex conflicts are not uncommon  Male-female combinations almost always work but same sex may or may not- there can only be one king and it sounds like they are vying for that position.

Offline shine

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2007, 06:26:36 am »
I can understand you being freaked out....I have been a bit of a nervous wreck since Bodhi and Ribbit's fight last week.  I hate it, I feel like I can't relax in my own home!  Our trainers will be back in town Monday and are coming over to work together with us....I'll share their advice with you and you let me know what works for you and we can solve this problem!!
Sharing my life and love with
Bodhi - Newfoundland
Rio - Loyal Lab/Beagle Mix
Zildjian - Dalmatian
Dolly - Weird Hound Mix
Stubby - Weird Corgi Mix
Ribbit - Grumpy Cocker Mix
House Cats - Bump, Delilah, Stashe, Mischa, Moose
Barn Cats - Archie, Betty, Midge
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Offline GoldenPyrs

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2007, 02:05:37 pm »
I think that you've gotten some really good advice already, but I just wanted to suggest Citronella spray as a possible tool.  It won't harm the dogs or your kids if they are nearby at the time, it's just a smell that dogs really dislike.  When I saw it used (at Pyr Rescue), the dogs seperated immediately and stayed away from each other for quite a while.  It was harmless and b/c it distracted the dogs so well, they didn't go right back at it and it gave the people time to intervene safely.  I'm sorry that you are going through this, I'm sure that it is worrisome for you, but I think that it's very possible that with training and time, that it may be workable.  Hang in there! 
Marie

And my pups:
Daisy a 9 y/o Golden/Lab mix
Sammy a 6-7(?) y/o Great Pyrenees adopted 3/07
Cassie a 3 y/o Pyr/Mystery Snuggle Bunny mix adopted 2/07

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Cara 1989-2001 Great Pyrenees
Sally ? - 1993 Dobie(rescued '92)
Halley 2002-2006 Great Pyrenees

Offline Amy (guffer)

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2007, 06:27:00 pm »
Thank you guys all so much for the great advice.  I worked a double shift at the hospital today, but I talked to Hubby on the phone just now and he said today was better.  He went out this morning and bought a spray bottle and some lemon juice and has been keeping it nearby all day.  Zeus had one growling episode which Hubby corrected quickly and it never escalated. I think the spray bottle will be a great tool as Zeus is already skittish around them.

Hubby and I discussed all of the methods you all suggested, and we're definitely going to work with a trainer and do the NILF thing.  We're not going to give up on this guy.  We love him so much already and we owe it to him to do everything we can to make this work. 

Shine, please keep me up to date with the advice you get from your trainer.  I'm really looking forward to hearing what they have to say.

Thanks again, all.  I truly appreciate the help.

Amy

Offline mountaindogmom

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2007, 07:35:02 am »
I think the cause of your problem is probably as basic as same-sex aggression, which is quite common in Pyrs and other large (especially guard) breeds.  It was after reading about this issue that we decided to get a male Pyr as our next pet since we already had a female Swissy.  So far, so good - no fights.

As for how to solve the problem I think everyone is on the right track.  You have to firmly establish each human in the house as the pack leader so that neither dog is trying out for the job.  NILIF is a great place to start.  Be consistent with your rules and corrections, and enlist a trainer if you can afford one.  If you let the dogs on the furniture, bed, etc. stop right away.  Zeus especially needs to realize that he doesn't "own" anything and that you and your hubby are the source of everything he likes (food, toys, treats, attention). 

Make sure that they only get toys/treats when you give them out, and only do that after they've successfully completed a command.  Don't just leave a toy box around for them to pick and choose from.  All good things must come from you, and must be earned by good behavior and/or listening to a given command. 

The first sign of any guarding behavior should result in a correction and the immediate removal of the object that was being guarded.  After the dog(s) calms down then reintroduce the object and praise non-guarding behavior.  If the dog tenses up or starts to give "the look" to the other dog, again remove the object immediately and try again later.  Obviously the goal is to try and read all the signs so that you can stop a fight before one happens.  Here's a link with some very good tips for dealing with dog aggression between two dogs in the same house.  Good luck!

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_AggressionDogsInSameHouse.php
Greta - Greater Swiss Mountain Dog (DOB 5-20-06)
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Offline patrick

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2007, 07:45:37 am »
Another thing that helps, since the spray bottle is working for you, is to have a spray bottle in every room- then you will never be without and can correct every time you have a problem  and remember the 'look' is a problem just as much as the actual fight.  Also mountaindogs advice concerning resource guarding is great!

Offline Amy (guffer)

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Re: Zeus and Apollo fought last night, and Hubby got bit (Update)
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2007, 05:27:59 pm »
Thanks, mountaindogmom, for the link on the aggression article.  I'm going to share it with Hubby when I get home from work in the morning.  You guys have all been so helpful.  I would've been lost without your guidance.  BPO is the best!

BTW, Hubby reports that today has gone smoothly.  He hasn't had to correct Zeus at all.  And he's been following the advice about treating Zeus as the dominant dog and feeding, petting, and taking him outside first.  Hopefully with some consistant training, we'll finally have peace again!