Author Topic: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS  (Read 14063 times)

Offline RedyreRottweilers

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Re: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2005, 06:58:26 am »
Rescue will be considered to be selling animals which have not been bred on the premesis of the seller, which makes them a dealer after they place one animal.

Licensing and inspection required right off the bat.

For ALL rescues.

Just like if you import ONE dog and resell it, you are a dealer.
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Re: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2005, 07:02:09 am »
Red, I have been reading this thread but haven't been in the right frame of mind to beable to read everything through in depth yet...So, would your average local Humane Society or shelter be in danger too because they charge adoption fees?

Offline RedyreRottweilers

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Re: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2005, 07:13:38 am »
No, because those types of facilities are already regulated and inspected.

The danger of this bill is it canand will cause those criteria to be applied to many household rescues and hobby breeders.

Especially hard hit will be purebred cat breeders.

It is a bad cumbersome poorly written bill that can be interpreted MANY different ways.

The numbers need to come out, and hobby breeders need to be defined in a different way.

I know there is a problem, and I'm not sure what the solution is, but it is NOT this bill.
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Re: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2005, 07:16:09 am »
Ty for clarifying for me!...I will everything closer tomorrow after my hubby goes back to work...He & the kids are like a full time job! :-\ ;) LOL!

Offline mastiffmommy

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Re: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2005, 10:21:03 am »
I am not in any way trying to say that, what you are saying is not the case Red.... But where does it state that about rescues. I can not find anywhere, where that is said. And rescues that are organized and reputable is still not in any danger from what I understand, I am working for Maine Coon Rescue, a pure bred rescue group, and the way that org. is already following the rules to be followed.

You were also mentioning, the home rescues, from what I understand if you "give" away, which is always the case, you are excluded from whatever the bill might state. And for home rescuers I know a whole lot of them, am one myslef when need be, but there is never any fees or money exchanging when you are lucky enough to find a good home for the dog or cat you have fostered.

I will definately go re read the bill again though

Marit
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Offline Rachel

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Re: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2005, 06:23:33 pm »
This is a cross post from a Mastiff list.  This is how PAWS will affect rescue....

RESCUERS: Think PAWS won't effect you because you don't breed? THINK
AGAIN!

1) If you charge an "adoption" fee for that Lab puppy you accepted
from an owner because you have someone who wants it? You are a third
party broker and you might need a USDA license.

2) You rescued two pregnant bitches and a regent cat and there are
now 17 puppies and 8 kittens at your house and you are placing them
responsibly as fast as you can and charging an adoption fee or
giving them away-- you might need a USDA license.

3) If you come back from a run with animals you "adopted" for
someone else from a shelter on your way -- You are a third party
broker and you might need a USDA license.

4) If you are a rescuer and your friends bring their litters to you
to find home for them and you charge an "adoption" fee -- YOU might
need a USDA license.

5) If you are a rescuer who asks your friends to help "adopt" out
your animals and charge an adoption fee and one of your "friends"
turns you in, especially if you are over any local limit law, health
codes or whatever -- YOU might need a USDA license.

6) If you have a wonderful rescue Siamese that another rescuer wants
to "adopt" and your charge her an adoption fee like you charge all
your adoptors -- YOU might need a USDA license

7) You adopted a 1 week puppy that had been abandoned by its mother
for another rescuer from the local shelter and you immediately take
it to the rescuer to bottle feed because you know they will alter it
when the time comes and OPPS! The rescue comes into a silent heat a
3 or 4 months of age before the rescuer could get it spayed and it
has puppies. You just sold breeding stock -- YOU might need a USDA
license.

8) If "oops" you place a Labrador and its new owner decides to hunt
with it, YOU just sold a hunting dog - YOU might need a USDA license.

9) If you rescue and breed, even one litter in a year -- YOU might
need a USDA license.

10) If you rescue a number of animals and charge adoptions fee for
them and your rescue partner, who shows her dog and breeds and
raises more than three litters in one year in her home -- YOU BOTH
might need USDA licenses.

11) If you have a private rescue and foster and place animals, for
which you charge an "adoption" fee to help with expenses - YOU might
need a USDA license.

12) If you are a small private rescue and place more than 25 animals
a year for which you charge an adoption fee & you finally break down
and buy yourself that Poodle you have ALWAYS wanted from a breeder
in Canada (only a few miles from your home in the US) and a couple
of your friends ask you to bring them back a poodle pup too - YOU
might need a USDA license!

13) If you rescue and somehow end up with more unaltered animals
than the law allows - YOU might need a USDA license.

14) If you think "it is not my problem, we should regulate Puppy
Mills". . . YOU might need a USDA license because DORIS DAY ANIMAL
LEAGUE vs VENEMAN ANN will be in Court again and the USDA will be
coming after YOU too!

AND, IF YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE COVERED BY THE AWA, HERE ARE A FEW
REQUIREMENTS, HAND PICKED TO CATCH YOUR ATTENTION ESPECIALLY IF YOU KEEP
RESCUES INSIDE YOUR HOME, THAT MIGHT HELP CONVINCE YOU THAT "PAWS" CAN
AND WILL HURT RESCUE:

(1) Interior surfaces, including floors and walls of indoor housing
facilities, and any other surfaces in contact with the animals, must
be impervious to moisture. The ceilings of indoor housing facilities
must be impervious to moisture or be replaceable, i.e., a suspended
ceiling with replaceable panels!

(2) All surfaces in contact with the dogs and cats to be readily
cleaned and sanitized in accordance with AWA, or be replaceable when
worn or soiled;

(3) Housekeeping of premises (buildings and grounds) must be kept
clean and in good repair in order to protect the animals from injury
and to facilitate the prescribed husbandry practices. . .
Does that sound like a lot of work? Don't worry, unless you only
rescue a small number of animals, you won't be alone, because you
will also be required to have a sufficient number of adequately
trained employees to maintain a professionally acceptable level of
husbandry practices as set forth in the AWA. Such practices shall be
under a supervisor who has a background in animal care. Oh, you
don't have a background in "animal care?" Too bad!

4) Drainage is another "fun" requirement -- a suitable sanitary
method shall be provided to eliminate rapidly, excess water from
indoor housing facilities. If drains are used, they shall be
properly constructed and kept in good repair to avoid foul odors and
installed so as to prevent any backup of sewage. The method of
drainage shall comply with applicable Federal, State, and local laws
and regulations relating to pollution control or the protection of
the environment.

(5) In fact, EVERYTHING you do must comply with all applicable
Federal, State, and local laws and regulations relating to pollution
control or the protection of the environment. Are you keeping a few
too many animals? Well, that will just have to stop! Local laws
require separate drain if you have 3 or more animals, even if they
are hamsters, and rescue a bird that fell out of its nest too early?
Too bad! Time to hire a Contractor!

AND THERE 90+ MORE PAGES OF SIMILAR REQUIREMENTS FOR YOU TO COMPLy wITH!
Check them out at:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/cfr/9cfr3.html#3.2

OPPOSE PAWS! Stop It In Committee!!!!
Call (202) 224-2035
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Offline Rachel

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Re: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2005, 06:26:47 pm »
Here is a qoute from AKC's Jim Holt who approves this bill...


>"In addition, a breeder WHO DOES NOT EXCEED THE FOREGOING
> LIMITATION ON THE SALE OF PUPPIES BRED OR RAISED ON THE PREMISES MAY
> SELL NOT MORE THAN 25 OTHER DOGS AT RETAIL (i.e. stud puppies,
> puppies from co-ownerships, a dog purchased for breeding, show, or
> field training that did not work out, A DOG THAT WAS RESCUED AND
> FOSTERED, ETC.) without being considered a dealer."

> Dr. Jim Holt,
> AKC federal government relations consultant
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Offline Rachel

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Re: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2005, 06:31:00 pm »
Here is another crosspost I found very very informative:

Crossposting encouraged.

Weblink at the end of the article for online exemption test.

----------

To many the proposed PAWS regulation is confusing, because of the
double negatives and the odd structure of the document. As an
engineer, I immediately recognized the logic employed in the
document-
not only AND and OR, but NAND and NOR (NOT AND and NOT OR). These
four logic conditions are the building block of every computer
circuit ever designed.

So I took it upon my self to diagram the regulation- not a simple
task. I believe I've got it right- and this should blow away a lot
of
the smokescreen coming from AKC and Santorum.

The logic flow chart is counter intuitive. Rather than starting at
the top and figuring out who a dealer is, it is more helpful to
figure out who gets exempted.

The Highest Level test is the "Pet Store" test. If you really are
a "Pet Store", this trumps all other exemptions.

However the pet store regulations include the basic definition of a
pet store, and then a definition of how a pet store can lose its
exemption. These are essentially nested logic loops, but can be
presented sequentially.

"PET STORE TEST"

ARE YOU A RETAIL PET STORE? IF YES PROCEED, IF NO GO TO FURRY ANIMAL
TEST

HAVE YOU SOLD ANY ANIMALS TO A RESEARCH FACILITY? IF NO PROCEED, IF
YES GO TO FURRY ANIMAL TEST

HAVE YOU SOLD ANY ANIMALS TO AN EXHIBITOR? IF NO PROCEED, IF YES GO
TO FURRY ANIMAL TEST

HAVE YOU SOLD ANY ANIMALS TO A DEALER? IF NO PROCEED, IF YES GO TO
FURRY ANIMAL TEST

HAVE YOU SOLD ANY DOG WHICH WAS IMPORTED FROM OUTSIDE THE UNITED
STATES IF NO PROCEED, IF YES GO TO FURRY ANIMAL TEST

AS A PET STORE, HAVE YOU SOLD ANY ANIMALS WHICH YOU HAVE BRED FOR
SALE TO THE PUBLIC AS PETS? IF NO PROCEED, IF YES GO TO FURRY ANIMAL
TEST

AS A PET STORE, HAVE YOU SOLD ANY HUNTING, SECURITY OR BREEDING
(INTACT) DOGS? IF NO PROCEED, IF YES GO TO FURRY ANIMAL TEST

AS A PET STORE, HAVE YOU SOLD ANY WILD ANIMALS? IF NO YOU ARE
EXEMPT,
IF YES GO TO FURRY ANIMAL TEST

Note that these regulations will restrict pet store to selling
spay/neutered pups of non-hunting breeds, and no imports. Every
thing
the AR folks want- to start with.

The next test is the "Furry Animal Test." This test is next, because
it is an AND test with both the 25 dog or cat test and the 6 litter
test. Both is disqualified if the furry animal limit of $500 is
exceeded. It is a sudden death test- no other exclusion is
available.

"FURRY ANIMAL TEST"

ARE YOU AN INDIVIDUAL OR OTHER LEGAL ENTITY (CO-OWNER, COMPANY,
ASSOCIATION) WHO DURING ANY CALENDAR YEAR HAS DERIVED MORE THAN $500
GROSS INCOME (NOT PROFIT) FROM THE SALE OF WARMBLOODED ANIMALS SUCH
AS GUINEA PIGS, HAMSTERS, GERBILS, RABBITS, MONKEYS, FERRETS,
EXCLUDING DOGS, CATS, RATS AND LABORATORY MICE, FOR USE IN RESEARCH,
TEACHING, EXHIBITION (ZOO/CIRCUS) OR AS A PET? (INCLUDES RESCUE).

IF YES YOU ARE A DEALER, IF NO THEN GO TO THE SELL AT LEAST ONE
TEST.

The next major test in sequence is the "6 Litter test." This is next
in sequence, because the fallback to the 6 litter test is the 25
sale
test, however the reverse is not true.

However, both the six litter and 26 tests require that at least one
sale be made. So the next test is the "Sell at least one" test.

"SELL AT LEAST ONE TEST"

ARE YOU AN INDIVIDUAL OR OTHER LEGAL ENTITY (CO-OWNER, COMPANY,
ASSOCIATION) WHO DURING ANY CALENDER YEAR HAS SOLD ONE OR MORE DOGS
OR CATS? IF YES GO TO THE SIX LITTER TEST, IF NO GO TO THE
BROKER/TRANSPORT TEST.

Ironically, a sale negotiator (broker) or transporter could become
exempt by selling one dog or cat a year. Probably not the intent of
the law, but that is how it is written.

There are a lot of disqualificati ons for the six litter test OTHER
than the obvious litter count. I actually place these earlier in the
flowchart, because few people realize just how restrictive this is.

"SIX LITTER TEST"

WERE ALL OF THESE DOGS OR CATS SOLD BRED OR RAISED ON YOUR PREMISES?
IF YES PROCEED, IF NO GO TO THE 25 TEST

HAVE YOU SOLD ANY AT WHOLESALE? IF NO PROCEED, IF YES GO TO THE 25
TEST

HAVE YOU SOLD ANY TO SOMEONE WHO PURCHASED THE ANIMAL FOR A GIFT TO
SOMEONE ELSE? IF NO PROCEED, IF YES GO TO THE 25 TEST

HAVE YOU SOLD TO ANYONE WHO BOUGHT THE ANIMAL WITH THE INTENT TO RE-
SELL IT? IF NO PROCEED, IF YES GO TO THE 25 TEST

HAVE YOU SOLD TO ANYONE AN ANIMAL NOT FOR THIER OWN USE AND
ENJOYMENT? THIS COULD CONCIEVABLY INCLUDE SELLING TO ANYONE IN A
STATE OR LOCALITY THAT HAS ENACTED ORDINANCES CHANGING "OWNERS"
INTO "GUARDIANS". IF NO PROCEED, IF YES GO TO THE 25 TEST

HAVE YOU WHELPED MORE THAN 6 LITTERS OF DOGS OR CATS IN A YEAR? IF
NO
YOU ARE NOT A DEALER, IF YES GO TO THE 25 TEST

The next test is very simple. It is only confusing when the AKC
introduces the concept of "other dogs" which does not exist in the
regulations. You cannot raise 6 litters (48 pups) and sell 25
additional dogs (73 total). Likewise you can't sell 80 pups not of
your own, and then raise one litter of your own to gain an
exemption.
However you can raise 10 small litters and sell 24 pups.

"THE 25 TEST"

ARE YOU AN INDIVIDUAL OR OTHER LEGAL ENTITY (CO-OWNER, COMPANY,
ASSOCIATION) WHO DURING ANY CALENDER YEAR HAS SOLD MORE THAN 25 DOGS
OR CATS? (note that "sell" would include "for compensation of
profit"
which means that partial or full reimbursement for expenses is
included. THIS INCLUDES RESCUE.

IF YES YOU ARE A DEALER. IF NO YOU ARE EXEMPT.

Also note that the actual rule states "sell not more than 25 dogs or
cats." This implies that at least one sale is made, and is why these
did not just say sells less than 26. In logical terms, this would be
expressed: IF SALE >1 AND <25 THEN NOT DEALER. The importance of
this
will soon been seen.

If you did not pass the "Sell at least one test" earlier you were
told to go to the broker/transporter test. Of course, common
carriers
are exempt from the transport test. That basically leaves puppy
factories and rescuers.

BROKER/TRANSPORATION TEST

ARE YOU A PERSON OR LEGAL ENTITY (CO-OWNER, COMPANY, ASSOCIATION),
WHO NEGOTIATES THE PURCHASE OR SALE OF ANY ANIMAL COVERED BY PAWS,
FOR COMPENSATION OR PROFIT? IF YES YOU ARE A DEALER, IF NO PROCEED

ARE YOU THE OPERATOR OF ANY REGULATED CARRIER ENGAGED IN THE
BUSINESS
OF TRANPORTING ANY ANIMALS FOR HIRE?

IF YES YOU ARE EXEMPT, IF NO PROCEED.

ARE YOU A PERSON WHO FOR COMPENSATION (INCLUDING REIMBURSEMENT) OR
PROFIT, DELIVERS FOR TRANSPORTATION, OR TRANSPORTS ANY OF THE
ANIMALS
COVERED BY PAWS? (THIS WOULD INCLUDE A PROFESSIONAL DOG HANDLER
TRANSPORTING HIS CLIENT'S DOG TO A SHOW OR TRIAL AND INCLUDES RESCUE
TRANSPORT WHEN ANY EXPENSES ARE REIMBURSED).

IF YES YOU ARE A DEALER, IF NO PROCEED.

For me, this is perhaps the most alarming part of PAWS other than
the
pet store restrictions. Spaniel field trials have both an Open and
Amateur division. Of course, most of those dogs run by the Pros
(most
of them part-time- they have weekday jobs) are owned by the
Amateurs.
Who will pay for the increased overhead forced on those pros- Air
conditioned dog trailers, kennels, a staffing? And these dogs may
run
on Saturday by a pro and on Sunday by the Amateur- who does not have
air conditioning. Nobody sends a dog to a pro that doesn't have an
idea of what the conditions at the pro's place will be.

This regulation will also apply to a RESCUE TRANSPORTER who gets
assistance for mileage (compensation).

However, as pointed out, by virtue of selling just one pup a year,
the rescue transporter, or sales negotiator (broker) or Pro Handler
can become exempt by just selling one pup a year. Perhaps they could
get a buddy and sell a dog back and forth every year; don't even
have
to relocate it.

THAT IS THE PAWS FLOWCART IN A NUTSHELL. Must be a cocoa-nut, it is
very big.

To help with understanding this, I have encoded the entire flowchart
into a website, so you can go step-by-step through the test. I would
suggest that you run through YOUR situation first and then think of
some others that you would like to test. It is very revealing.


http://smythwicks.org/paws


-Bill Fawcett
smythwicks.org
Rachel and Sophie

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Offline mastiffmommy

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Re: NATIONWIDE MARCH AGAINST PAWS
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2005, 08:49:16 am »
This is a very imortant topic, no doubt. I wil not post in this topic again until I have done some serious research. I like to read all the "boring" stuff, the legal formulations and really make my own mind up. And after having read here, spoke to a lot of my breeder and rescue friends, I can tell that there is as with everything different opinions. Some hate it and say it will be a "hit under the belt" for a lot of pet owners/breeders and rescues, other say it is no more than to make sure that the breeding and rescue is done in a for the animals correct and responsible way. Today a lot of rescue groups and breeders already have a licens and have to keep up with records and a certain care level and be inspected. Sooooo like I said, I will do serious reasearch on the topic. And get back to this tread when I feel I can for myself make up my mind.

Marit
what the lion is to a cat, the mastiff is to a dog