Author Topic: Myth Or Truth  (Read 6603 times)

Offline Edwpang

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Myth Or Truth
« on: January 21, 2008, 07:35:40 pm »
I've heard from various source the follow tips about how to show your dog as the leader:

1. Eat before your dog;
2. Do not let your dog enter/exit a door or narrow opening before you;
3. Do not share food with your dog on your dinner table.
...

I used to believe the above statements when I was not so familar with dogs. But that more I know about dogs the more I am doubtful about them. From BPO and many other places, I tend to believe as long as we take control, and our dogs know it, we are the leader. For example, as long as we decide when and how much to feed our dog, not dog make us feed him, it doesn't matter who eat first... The same idea with entering/exiting a door... Am I right, or the above statements are true after all?

Please comment. Thanks in advance.

Offline People Whisperer

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2008, 07:37:34 pm »
Here is a great article about leadership

http://www.4pawsu.com/leaderadv.htm#1#1

1. Eat before your dog; IMO, crap!
2. Do not let your dog enter/exit a door or narrow opening before you; I agree
3. Do not share food with your dog on your dinner table.
... I think it is OK to give your dog leftovers AFTER we finished with our meal. If the dog is begging I do think that dog doesn't respect owner as a leader.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 07:43:26 pm by People Whisperer »
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dohertyswissy

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2008, 08:02:38 pm »
Every dog's temperament is different.  I certainly don't claim to be the best dog trainer in the world, but I think I did pretty darn good with Ranger.  Here's my 2 cents for what it is worth.

1. Eat before your dog: 
Nah.  I think simply by making your dog sit prior to feeding time gets the point across just as well.
2. Do not let your dog enter/exit a door or narrow opening before you.  I did this with Ranger for a VERY long time.  A good 1 1/2 years, to ensure that he knew who was the leader.  Now, it is hit or miss.  Sometimes I do, but other times, I'm like Jenn.  When it is chilly outside, I linger by the door.  He still sits and waits before I entering/exiting door when I ask.
3. Do not share food with your dog on your dinner table.
I agree with this one.  At least with Ranger, it is too tempting if you give him food from the table.  It makes him think it is a-okay for him to hang out by the table while we are eating.





Offline DogGuideDan

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2008, 08:35:30 pm »
1. Eat before your dog:  I don't think it really matters as long as your dog isn't eating at the table *with* you  ;)  My dogs eat in a 1 hour window every night and my schedule varies a great deal.  Sometimes they eat before me, sometimes they don't.  They also don't eat in the same room as I do, but that is because I feed raw and the last thing I want is meat strewn all over my house!

2. Do not let your dog enter/exit a door or narrow opening before you:  I think it's very important to teach manners and basic entering/exiting rules with your dog.  Mine wait  outside every door until I say "ok" and then go through.  However there are times when we walk through at the same time. 
3. Do not share food with your dog on your dinner table:  I completely agree with this point.  If there is something you want to give to your dog, save it for later and put it in their bowl.  No reason to encourage lap drooling!
-Dan
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Lucian - Dogue De Bordeaux Puppy
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Offline Edwpang

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2008, 09:28:57 pm »
Thank you all for your quick reply. The article is pretty good, it answers some of my questions.  :)

Butter has pretty good manners when eating his own food. When I go to get his dog food(Canidae ALS), he'll sit in his crate automatically, though sometimes he go out and check. When feeding him, I don't put all of kibbles at once into his food bowl, because he is very faster eater. Each time before I put bowl down, he has sit nicely in his crate... His door manner is also OK. But he do NOT have good table manners. He won't go and grab food from table in front of people, but he swells at the table very closely or put his head onto whoever is not so firm with him(not me). Should I completely ignore him or give him some doggy treats if he sits nicely at a distance?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 09:29:46 pm by Edwpang »

Offline DogGuideDan

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2008, 09:40:15 pm »
I honestly wouldn't give him any food (treats) during human meal time.    If he is sitting nicely and unobtrusively while you are eating , I'd give him a few words of praise and go back to your business.  If this gets him over stimulated, I'd just ignore him altogether.  Maybe giving him an interesting toy on a mat or on his bed at the start of meal time to keep him occupied. 
-Dan
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Offline Edwpang

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2008, 02:30:44 am »
So the consensus is not table feeding, but for Butter it's pretty hard to keep him from wandering around the table or look up at your from a close distance when we are having dinner.  :(

Offline ratdog

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 07:05:47 am »
Hi. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as the rest of these folks on the forum but here's my 2 cents.

Cody eats at 2 certain times each day. My schedule is crazy. I eat when I can.

I go through the door first. The stairs just depends. Cody is still getting used to them. They are carpeted but are steep. Sometimes she likes me to go in front to encourage her and sometimes she likes me to be behind her to help "control" her descent.

The only people food she gets is some yogurt with her morning meal and that the vet said to give her. I don't know if at a later time she will get people food but if she does it will not come from the table. I don't want her to beg.

And this, too, is contraversial (sp?-sorry) - I let Cody sleep in the bed with me. Some people would highly disagree with that while others don't think it is a big issue. I love to cuddle with her.

Terri
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Offline maxsmom

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2008, 10:40:35 am »
You could also try teaching Butter the place command.  Put him on his blanket or wherever you want him to stay and say place.  Do not say stay or sit or down, just place.  Stay close by him and if he starts to walk away, say no or whatever you use, return him to it and say place.  Gradually build up the amount of time you want him to stay there in 4 or 5 minute increments.  This way you have a way to keep him there, if you have company and don't want him in their face, when you are eating, or anytime you are doing something and don't want him in your face or space.  This works really well for my dogs and good luck.  As far as the other, feeding from the table is not a dominance issue for me, I just don't like begging.  My dogs eat when I feed them, regardless of when I eat.  My dogs go out the door before me, if I let them and don't if I don't.  I don't think any of these things really affects the dominance or hierarchy of your "pack".  Pack mentality is just that mental.  Cody does not go out a door before the other dogs either, but, he is definitely my alpha dog and the other 2 don't ever challenge that.  He doesn't get all growly and overbearing with them either.  He is just in charge and they all know it.  Just like they know, they have to defer to me.  No different.
Kathy
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Offline mynameislola

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2008, 12:23:28 pm »
Order in eating and in lines describes behaviors that dogs are born understanding, IMO, so it makes sense to use that when training them.  Making a point of eating before you feed a puppy establishes the pups' status in the pack right away. 

After my pups are about 16 weeks old I stop making that a lesson unless they are showing signs of aggression.  We free feed so their eating manners are a big deal.  Zita, at 13 months and about 5 months of daily lessons, is just now starting to allow Wally to walk past food without the lunge and growl. 

Doorways are good pinch points for teaching pack order.  All my dogs get taught that they cannot go through a doorway ahead of me unless I command them to.  Zita gets a Wait command, then she has to Sit, then more Waiting, then I tell her Shoo to get her to pass through.  There are also hand commands for all of those.  It is really handy when the door needs to be left open and the dogs need to not run out.

It totally depends on the dog.  Zita is my only one who will get pushy and rude if not kept in line 24/7.  Cody Newfoundland never needed any doorway lessons.  Neither did Wally and she is the same breed as Zita, Italian Mastiff.

Good table manners in a dog makes it nicer to be around them.  Nobody wants a guest with a lap full of coffee after the dog nudged their elbow looking for attention.  Our dining room has a smooth floor so the dogs don't go in there, but if they did, they would have to lay down while people were eating.  IRL hubby usually eats in his comfy chair in front of the TV with a circle of staring dogs around him.

They also get petted in order.
The canine kids:
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     Wally Italian Mastiff
     Zita Italian Mastiff
     Sparky Chihuahua

Offline patrick

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2008, 12:38:58 pm »
I have a herd of Gr Pyrs and I send them before me at doorways and stairs- I value my life and I don't want to be in the middle of a stampede!  They do patiently wait at the door for me to open and on the stairs they wait for me to ask them to go down.  But I want them in Front not behind I'm getting too old to be trampled!!

Offline peytons mama

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2008, 04:39:46 pm »
I followed these "rules" for about 2 months and then realized that my life and darrin's life shouldn't be ruled around these rules. If Peyton has played hard that day she gets food 12 hours since the last time she ate. (it's also nice having a poop schedule that way too!) and if we are gonna be late at our dinner, she can eat first. but we usually feed her a few mins before we start cleaning up our dinner plates (so after we eat) or if she is really bugging us during our dinner, she gets hers in her kennel. but if she is being "good" she gets her food in the kitchen under the bar like she normally does.

we tried to make it that we entered first but we (i do say we cuz it wasn't just her!) were having leash problems and when we switched to her slip clip collar (the choker but reg leash material) she started relaxing more and she now lollygags behind us when we enter the house. sometimes we do it just to reinforse that we are the leader and she sits automatically when we do that.

she does gets food scraps...when we are done. and not the good kind that dogs drule over! she gets carrots and green beans and potatoes and fruits. we don't drop stuff from when we are eating. i think that would tell her that it is okay to do that.

we do, however, have a problem with her thinking she can clean the plates though when we load them in the dishwasher. :) but we don't let her lick ones that actually have food on them. she licks the water off for us!

i think it really matters on the dogs and the owners. she is a totally spoiled brat, but i think she knows her place. ya know...darrin, peyton and then me! :) nah i think she knows that i make the rules too...she just doesn't follow them sometimes. :-[
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Offline Edwpang

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2008, 06:28:28 pm »
Thank you all for your great comments. It's really appreciated.

...
 He is such a funny guy when it's eat time. They've already eaten by the time we eat. Bava gets up on the couch and makes himself as small as he can be and turns his head so he's not looking at me, but will stare straight ahead and cut his eyes back to me without moving his head to see if I've dropped anything. He won't look at me head on, just that funny cutting his eyes back at me. He also manages to look very pitiful and sad and starved and woebegotten. Sophie stands at the gate and rubs her nose and lips all over it and will give a little bark every now and then...

Bava and Sophie are so funny. ;D During dinner, Butter has been trained using treats(now I know shouldn't do it) to sit or lay down outside of kitchen near the dinner table. He looks at food very intensively and runs over very fast when a food item drops to the ground thinking anything on the ground belongs to him. When we turn to look at him, he'll avoid eye contact as if caught doing something wrong... He also pretty bad at begging not during dinner time.
It looks like I should stops him from getting so close to the kitchen table during dinner. I'd first try to close him in to a room, and probably give a kong filled yummy treats...

Offline Saint and Mal mom

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Re: Myth Or Truth
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2008, 08:05:16 pm »
Hi there! I'm not nearly as knowledgeable or good about training with my dogs as others, but there's only 1 of these 3 things that we absolutely INSIST on at my house. And that is no food is ever given to the dogs while we are sitting at the table. If we did it just even once, I can only imagine the begging and whining and hounding and sad eyes that would ensue the rest of the times we ever tried to eat in front of them again. And because they've NEVER gotten anything to eat at the dinner table, they don't do the begging routine either. They know without a doubt that they get NOTHING from us while we are eating.

With our first dog, we would give into the sad puppy dog eyes (it's so hard not to sometimes!) and raised him to be a beggar basically. I won't do that again! So buggy!
Marissa

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Dolly, CGC- Saint Bernard, 4 years
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