Author Topic: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS  (Read 5185 times)

Offline Apreston

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Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« on: March 23, 2008, 09:17:46 am »
Hi All;
Tomorrow we have Titan set up for his Neuter :( Poor Guy
I feel very uneasy about the whole thing...it started off when the vet said " We will see Titan on Tuesday for his CASTRATION"  :o I have not felt right since...
Anyways wondering about a few things....

1st) Will getting him neutered too soon "stunt" his growth?
My husband is worried he wont be genetically as big as he should be if he do the "deed" too soon.... any thoughts?

2nd) He does not show ANY signs of aggression, humping, or "marking his terriroy" around the house so should it be done now or when we have a problem?

Thanks in advance!  :-*

Oh ya...we are not planning to breed him....  ;D
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 09:19:39 am by Apreston »

Offline Mojo1269

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 09:31:06 am »
There are many differnt theories on when to do things.  I subscribe to the after a year but there are valid points for doing it sooner.  Ultimalty it is the right this to do unless you are going to show/breed Titan.  Some dogs never mark or hump so that is not always a good gauge as to when to do things.  In the end make sure you are comfortable with the timing and be prepared for a large elizabethan collar to be knocking into things at your house. ;)
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Offline Apreston

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2008, 09:44:34 am »
THE DREDED COLLAR
Cone Head as we call it!!  ;D
We are not breeding him he is our family pet; we made the choice when we came home with us... so I think with work being slow I am able to have the time off to look after him (watch him sleep)  :D and it just does not make sense to me to wait any longer...its my husband who wants to wait...

Offline normansdad

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2008, 10:53:06 am »
We just recently had our Saint Bernard, Norman neutered.  He will be 11 months old this week.

We waited to have our Golden Retriever spayed until she was a year, and let her have one heat before doing so, and with the guidance of our vet we felt that that was the best option for us.  We knew the risks involved in both.

There is a potential for increased risks for some types of cancers etc, but we ultimately decided that we liked the theories of European breeders, that altering an animal before sexual maturity could effect bone development.  In humans, removal of hormones has a HUGE effect on growth, so in our minds we wanted to wait a little longer. 

We chat online in a forum for Goldens, and over in the UK and other places they are shocked to hear how early spays and neuters are done over here.  The generally accepted over there is at least a year, with bitches having one and sometimes two heats before a spay.

Our Norman is not marking territory, humping or aggressive either, although in the last few weeks we have noticed him 'trying' to figure out how to mount his sister.  For us, the concern was more about how the poor vet would get him on the operating table, and of course, the giant breeds are more fragile under anesthetic.  Normy also had a testicle that did not drop properly, so his procedure was a little more complicated than the usual.  He recovered fine, and is running and playing normally a week later.

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2008, 11:03:03 am »
We did show Marley for awhile but had never planned on breeding.  We would always say we wanted to but knew we wouldnt.  The decision was made for us when my chihuahuas came into heat together..OMG  it was not a fun time at our house.  I think we waited because we were so scared, but he did fine! Marley was 16mos when we did the "tutor"....Other than licking the area and making it swell to the size of a basketball, seriously that big!!, he did well.  I encourage a headpiece of some kind.  Marleys head is sooo big that the ecollar wouldnt fit him.  We had to use this thingee that was like a tube and it was not fun but it worked.  So good luck and I know Titan will be just fine and all the better for doing it!

Offline Apreston

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2008, 11:36:23 am »
THANKS EVERYONE
You guys ALWAYS make me feel better.
We were just concerned with his age he might be still to young to do it 9 months 130 lbs...but i think its the right time...oh wait is it EVER the right time for you pet to be away from you.... I am not going to know what to do with myself maybe i should pay attention to my husband for once LOL  :-*  ;D
Thanks again everyone you always have such kind words and great advice!  ;)

Offline mastiffmomoftwo

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2008, 12:12:47 pm »
Hi Titan's parent.
My name is Chris and I'm very new on this board.
Remember this is just my opinion.

First a question:
1) Is Titan out of hand?  Displaying aggressive behaviour etc?

We got Beau neutered at 8 1/2 months of age and 165 pds.
My vet wanted me to wait as long as possible because giant breeds need that time for their growth plates to close.  My Beau was quite a handful.  He was playing rough etc, but not having had a puppy for 20 years, didn't realize that this was puppy behaviour.  Beau does not have a mean bone in his body.

Knowing what I know now, I WOULD WAIT!  I would get him neutered at about 1 1/2 to 2 years of age.  Remember a mastiff will not stop growing till they are 3-4 years of age.

Please do some more research as well.  I will try to find some stuff for you to read.

There are certain types of sutures that should not be used on mastiff's.  They are allergic to it.

There are certain types of anasthesia that should not be used, again because of a high rate of not waking up.

Is your vet familiar with giant breeds?  Mine is somewhat, and really does her research, but for example when I take him in, she tells me he needs to loose weight.  Now I just tell her he's a mastiff not a greyhound!  I guess my point is that you need to educate yourself and not just take your vets word  on things.  Before Beau was neutered he was gaining 5 pds a week.  After surgery, he gained about 1 pd a month if that.  Do I want a monster dog? No, but I should have let him grow to his full potential.  At 130pds, I think Titan is on the smaller end of the scale.  Now growing them slowly is exactly what you want to do, but he probably won't blossom till he's 3 or 4.  Of course it also depends on his parents.  My Luke for example is only 160 pds, but looks well put together.

As for the surgery itself, Beau did very well.
He did not lick at all.  Didn't even look at himself.
Of course one could not miss the grapefruits hanging between his legs!!!  The swelling went down within 3-4 days.  One positive thing is that Beau still pees girly man style.  He still squats!

I will try to get back to you with some links.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 01:19:49 pm by mastiffmomoftwo »
Chris

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Offline mastiffmomoftwo

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2008, 12:28:02 pm »
Hi again, here is an article I found on anesthesia.

here is the link to the vets' home page.

http://members.aol.com/RocknRob56/index.html

Anesthesia and the Mastiff
By Robin M. Smith, DVM

I thought that I would talk about anesthesia concerns and the mastiff since that is the most frequently asked question I get from mastiff owners.

First off, you MUST have a veterinarian that is willing to listen to you and who is not afraid to be questioned about their anesthesia methods and how they monitor the pet once they are under anesthesia. If they do not want to discuss this or if they have a comment like, "well, I have always done it so and so way and I am not going to change", find yourself another veterinarian. I think that the public needs to be aware of exactly what is happening to their dogs and the risks that are possible. ALL anesthesias are putting the dog at risk... BUT there are some that are much safer than others and I will discuss these.

To start, I want to mention a few anesthesias that I would avoid if at all possible. In the past, most of these drugs were used exclusively, but with the advent of the new drugs and safer ones, they should not be used in the mastiff. Mastiffs are not just big chihauhas. The mastiff generally has a slower heart rate than smaller dogs and they also have inherently a lower blood pressure. They also, as you know, have a larger body mass. These things add to the risk of anesthetizing them.

I never use acepromazine anymore as a pre-anesthetic or tranquilizer. Acepromazine lowers blood pressure and dilates blood vessels thereby making the blood pressure even lower. It also is metabolized (gotten rid of by the body) very slowly and tends to accumulate in fatty tissues. Therefore, larger dogs and fatter dogs usually have to be given a larger dose than normal in order to have effect, and because of this, it takes these dogs sometimes days to get back to normal. I have used it a lot in the past... In fact, it was the "gold standard" for pre- anesthetic sedation, but not anymore. Many people have used it in tablet form for tranquilizatio n during stressful periods, i.e. thunderstorms. Again, I used to use it for this, but do not now, especially in giant breeds... It is too unpredictable. Just to let you know, I use Benadryl for thunderstorms at a dose of 1 mg./lb but not to exceed 100 mg. and find it works very well to make the dog tired and rest better.

Xylazine (Rompun) is another drug I avoid. I haven't used it in about 5 years. It makes the heart more susceptible to the effects of epinephrine (adrenalin) that is in the body and therefore, making the dog more susceptible to heart abnormalities. It is a difficult drug to dose in giant breed dogs.

Acepromazine and Xylazine are the two drugs that I try to avoid if possible. If your veterinarian is also a large animal (cow, not mastiff) veterinarian, he may very well use the two drugs as they are used in farm animals a lot.

If for some reason, your veterinarian must use these two drugs, I think it is mandatory that the dog be monitored by an EKG machine during surgery and immediately post-operatively.

Other drugs that I do not use much although they are still used are the thiopentals. These are like sodium pentathol. They work very rapidly to knock the dog down, but are very powerful and stay in the system a long time. Also if the drug gets out of the vein (like if the dogs jump) the thiopentals can irritate the surrounding area and completely slough the area (all the tissue dies).

The drug(s) that I use the most in mastiffs are valium, ketamine, telazol, and propofol.

A combination of valium and ketamine given intravenously will be enough to knock the dog down in order to insert the endotracheal tube. Both of these drugs are very safe and I use them a lot in the older dogs. Neither one effect the heart much.

Telazol is very similar to valium and ketamine and also works well for anesthesia so that an endotracheal tube be place (I use .1 cc/lb and do not exceed 1.5 cc total).

I do use propofol (deprivan) for short procedures, i.e. OFA radiographs. Propofol is a fairly new drug in the veterinary field but has been used for a long time in the human field. It is a milky solution that after opening a vial cannot be stored. It gets contaminated with bacteria very easily. Because it is expensive, the veterinarian may try to cut corners and use old leftover propofol that is sitting in the fridge. It is given to effect or in other words, it is given IV until the dog goes down and then the dog is intubated and put on gas. The GREAT thing about this drug is that as soon as the animal is taken off the gas, the dog is awake and can walk out without assistance. I have also used the drug in C-sections to sedate the dog long enough to insert the endotracheal tube. It is a very top of the line drug. I do find the dosages of propofol to be a lot lower than the manufacturers literature dosage. One added thing: Propofol can lower blood pressure so the pet needs to be monitored while on that.

I also use oxymorphone for sedation and sometimes as the sole sedative for simple procedures like biopsy. It is an opiod and therefore it can cause respiratory depression, which means that the dog needs to be constantly monitored. There is a reversal agent called Naloxone that will reverse the effects of the drug and works quite well.

I will always put the dog on gas for a fairly short procedure. Isoforane is a gas of choice since it has fewer side effects. Halothane is still being used by some veterinarians. I do not use it since it (just like xylazine) sensitizes the heart which can cause irregular beats. But, as long as the dog is properly monitored, there should be no problem.

Prior to ANY anesthesia in any aged animal, I require a pre-anesthetic blood work up. I get a PCV (monitors whether anemic or dehydrated), a BUN (monitors liver and kidney function), Creatinine (monitors kidney function), ALT (monitors liver function), Alkaline phosphates (monitors liver and the biliary system), Total protein (monitors the immune system and hydration status), glucose and the electrolytes (sodium, potassium and chloride). I get these as I said even in young animals... It is just good medicine to know where the dog is prior to surgery and anesthesia so we will know how they will tolerate anesthesia. It is the base line. These test also guide me to my use of anesthesia. For example, if there is kidney damage I know to avoid drugs that have to go through the kidney to be eliminated from the body. The temperature is also monitored along with the heart by an EKG.

Atrophine was a drug that was used all the time as a pre-medication to dry up the saliva in dogs and cats and to keep the heart rate up. It is not used much anymore, or shouldn't be used in large and giant breeds. I don't use it in any breed anymore. Atrophine causes the gut to slow down and this is not good especially in the mastiff. I believe slowing the gut down predisposes the mastiff to bloating.

Anesthetic Protocols:

Routine spay or neuter. I hate the word ROUTINE used here because no surgery is routine. I used valium at .3 mg/kg and ketamine at 10 mg/kg IV and then I put the tube down the trachea and start the dog on isoforane gas anesthetic. I have not had problems with these in the mastiff.
OFA radiographs. I know many of you try to get OFA radiographs while the animal is awake. An unsedated animal is very hard to position correctly, but even more importantly OFA asks you to sedate the dogs. OFA believes that by not sedating the dogs, we're not getting good representative x-rays. I believe if the OFA radiographs are done with sedation, it would be very hard to miss a dysplastic animal. Depending on if the dog is going to go right home or stay in the hospital. I will use 2 anesthetics for each case. If the dog is staying, I use the valium/ketamine mixture and if the dog is not staying, then I use the propofol and then the dog is intubated. Just another added note. I always put an IV catheter in for a quick access to the blood stream in case something does happen and I need to give drugs quickly.
Cesearean Sections. The main goal here is to obtain the least sedation possible in the puppies. For the Ceaserain section, I utilize Propofol at a dose of 3 mg./ lb. or until I can get an endotracheal tube down the dog. If I had to choose a second choice I would give the bitch torbutrol and valium as a preanesthetic as described next and then intubate after masking down. I use torbugesic at .45 mg/kg and give it to the muscle. Then I give valium (.45 mg/kg) intramuscularl y. We prep the bitch on the floor by shaving her belly and then when done, we put her on the table and mask her down. We put a large mask over her muzzle and turn the gas all the way until she is alseep enough to put the endotracheal tube in. While masking the bitch down, she may struggle since the dog thinks it is not getting oxygen, even though it is. The trick here is to get in and the puppies out ASAP. Propofol can also be used and I have had good results with it. The bitch is wide awake as soon as the last staple is in. I am comfortable with either one.
Those are probably the three most common surgeries I do on mastiffs. Don't let the anesthesia scare you. Where there is some risk has been lowered by doing all the blood work and the pre-op exams that I mentioned above.

If you have any questions regarding anesthesia or just anything, please feel free to contact me.


Robin M. Smith, DVM
Westminster Veterinary Emergency/Trauma Center
269 W. Main St., Westminster, MD 21557
Work 410-848-3363
(Fax) 410-848-4959
E-mail: RocknRob56@aol.com


Here is a note on sutures:

Did they use suture material called Vicryl (it's purple). It is very common for Mastiffs to allergic to Vicryl. It usually causes an abcess at the suture site and leads infection.

http://www.ethicon.novartis.us/brands/en/vicryl_plus.shtml


And another note:

One particular brand of very strong suture material called Vicryl (braided strand ) or Monocryl (single strand) has a type of calcium coating to make it stronger and rigid commonly causes allergic reactions in our breed. The flare ups often result in abcesses. You will need to explain this to the vet and tell them it is something like Collies being allergic to heartworm meds. It's just something that affects our breed.
Chris

(Beau & Luke's Mom)

Offline Apreston

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2008, 02:22:31 pm »
Now thats freaking me out... so what should I ask about the anesthesia...h as anyone else heard of this before...asked there vets about any of these drugs?????

Offline Guardian Angel's White lightning

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2008, 04:08:19 pm »
HEY...mastiffs are ultra sensitive to part of the seditive called Ace...or acepromazine.  It slows down their heart, but so many mastiffs have passed....make sure you tell them not to give the ace......altho ugh no remydle (sorry for spelling) it is the worst...if you do, make sure to also give milk thistle too...it will protect his liver.  My breeder told me not to neuter until at least 18 months old....if i was to. It is because of all the vaccines that they load them up on then sedate them...it just reeks havoc on the system. 

Offline mastiffmomoftwo

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2008, 10:43:17 pm »
Now thats freaking me out... so what should I ask about the anesthesia...h as anyone else heard of this before...asked there vets about any of these drugs?????

That's why it's always good to have information!
It helps you ask the right questions.
Make out a list from the article of good on one side and bad on the other.  Ask your vet before the procedure.  If you are uncomfortable, then delay the neuter.

I don't think neutering early stunts their growth, what I was told is that it takes a long time for a giant breeds growth plates to close, and I've heard they will actually grow taller than perhaps they should have, and it may put strain on their bones and ligaments etc.  Most of it does have to do with genetics, but my Beau for example is much taller than his mom was, and bigger than his dad.
Chris

(Beau & Luke's Mom)

Offline NarniaMals

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Re: Titan and the BIG Neuter - QUESTIONS
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 02:38:46 am »
We have had all 3 pups "fixed".  The husky was 7 months old and "humping" everything.  What a difference it made in him.  He is average size for an alaskan husky - lean and fast but all muscle.  He is now almost 2.  The mals were done on the recommendation of the vet at 6 months.  I am extremely comfortable with my vet and took his advice.  He works with all the common northern breeds (and we are loaded with them here).  Neither of the mals seems to have had a growth problem.  Jadis is already within 20 pounds of her mother's weight and Vander is within 40 pounds of his dad's weight.  They are only 11 months old so needless to say they still have some growing to do.  All of them did extremely well with their surgery.  We did all the pre-op blood work as well and would definitely recommend it for your own peace of mind.

I was always in favor of "fixing" my pups althoug my husband was very against it.  When the husk was caught getting friendly to my daughter - his mind quickly changed. The same was true for the male mal.  Inagine a 125 pund pup trying to get friendly with your leg - UGHHHHHHHH.  I think it is a husband thing to want to preserve the male pup's "manhood" or something.

Hope all goes well. Do your research and most importantly find a vet you truly trust. 
Marianne and the MALS
Jadis (Queen of Narnia - The White Witch) and
Vander  (One of her loyal guardians)
also Maulgrim (our Huskey - Head guardian and our little alpha dog!)