Author Topic: I've Done Research on What to Know, but I Need to Know More  (Read 7604 times)

Offline jenniferl

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I'm really glad I found this board, you guys were really nice & helpful with my last question :)

I have been looking at all kinds of sites and checklists and things about what to keep in mind when buying a puppy--specifically a BMD. Still, I realized I have a few questions that didn't seem clear to me anywhere else and now that I've read repeated warnings about BMD health, I'm pretty nervous about trying to find the right puppy and the right breeder.

First off, how old does the puppy have to be to obtain all the info one should have--like good hip & eye health reports, etc? I recieved an email when I asked about what health info would come with a specific dog I found online and she said that most info was unobtainable given the puppy's age & I hadn't read that that would be an issue so it struck me as a possible warning sign...

Also, what about shelter rescues? With all the potential issues with this breed is a shelter a bad route to take? Even with a BMD mix? I was originally wanting to buy a dog from a shelter but... Now I'm not so sure. At least if we really decide to go with this breed.

One last question... What's the deal with online sites like puppyfind.com? I've found several puppies in my area (I'd rather pick her up myself) and am ready to do the research on who's selling but do these sites have a good track record?

Thank you so much... Blah, I feel so lost with all this new info to consider :-X

Offline KatysTank

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Re: I've Done Research on What to Know, but I Need to Know More
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 11:38:30 am »
I would try the shelters and rescues first. There are sooo many dogs in needs of homes and it feels so rewarding adopting an animal. We found Tank, a newfie mix, at a kill shelter and he was around 3 months old. He is so well behaved and the best!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 11:41:34 am by KatysTank »

Offline jenniferl

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Re: I've Done Research on What to Know, but I Need to Know More
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008, 11:46:54 am »
I'd really prefer to get a dog from a shelter. My mom and I bought our family dog from a shelter (a chow/retriever mix) who is the most beautiful, wonderful doggie and still lives with my parents. She ended up having bad pancreatic problems. It's treatable and she's healthy and happy almost 8 years later and obviously totally worth it but I would hate to go through the same sort of thing again. She's the only shelter dog I have to go on which is why it's good to hear happy shelter success stories. (NOT that she wasn't a success story! I believe we would have gotten her even if we had known about her illness.)

Offline London_Pyr_Lover

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Re: I've Done Research on What to Know, but I Need to Know More
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2008, 11:53:59 am »
Hey Jennifer.  You've definately come to the right place for your questions, there's alot of really knowledgable people here.  Ones alot smarter then me, but I'll try to answer some questions too.  ;) :)

1)  how old does the puppy have to be to obtain all the info one should have--like good hip & eye health reports, etc?

You can't really get health reports from the puppies themselves until they are no longer puppies, you have to wait until the puppy is full grown to get stuff like that.  Joint Cert's come from the parents, and lineage.  When talking to a breeder, ask for both parents health certs, and a copy of the lineage.  :)

2)   what about shelter rescues? With all the potential issues with this breed is a shelter a bad route to take? Even with a BMD mix?

Shelter rescues are never a bad decision to make.  :)  Although the health and temperment are never going to be guarenteed, saving an animal from a bad situation is always worth it in the end.  The love and appreciation you get in return will make it all worth while.   ;)

3)  What's the deal with online sites like puppyfind.com?

Sites like this are not the place to be looking for a healthy puppy in body and temperment.  It is a vessel for puppy mills and puppy brokers to sell their wares.  The dogs are not looked after, overbred, and usually abused.  You will not get a health guarentee, and they will not stand behind their puppies.  Places like this breed for profit, not for love of the breed.  So please take care when trying to find your puppy, and stay away from sites like those.  :)

I would contact my local BMD club, they usually keep a list of reputable breeders, and don't be afraid to ask a breeder anything about the dogs.  You want to deal with someone who you can have a possibly life long relationship with.  Also look into breed specific rescues if you want to go that route as well.

Best of luck finding your new baby!  Can't wait to see the pics when you finally get him/her!   :D :D :D
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Offline sc.trojans

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Re: I've Done Research on What to Know, but I Need to Know More
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2008, 03:19:48 pm »

Bless you Ciara!  Thanks for posting my previous comments so I don't have to repeat them :)

I just would like to add a couple of things:

I am a member of my regional Bernese Club, the BMDCA (national club) and work for the Southern California Berner Rescue.  I just placed a rescue I was fostering here yesterday in his new forever home and I will use him (Max) as my example:

Max is 17 months old - they are usually all 18-24 months old since this is about the age when ignorant buyers (usually from pet stores) realize they don't know what they bought.  Max is as sweet and well adjusted as they come.  He has absolutely no behavioral issues despite living outdoors fulltime (reason for rescue).  He DOES however have very poor structure and bad orthopedics.  He has pretty severe slipped hocks (hyperextension) and arrived here limping on his right shoulder - hips and elbows were unknown.

I changed his diet to an anti-inflammatory diet, put him on a host of joint supplements, began strength building exercises for his hocks to build muscle to help stabilize these, and am taking him to my physical therapist tomorrow to be evaluated and fitted for hock braces.  His new owners benefit from knowing exactly what they're getting - good and bad.  At this age, you know what you have, unlike a puppy.  Two other placements this month were to families originally thinking they wanted a puppy.  After counseling them that they aren't ready, and an adolescent is a safer bet - they rescued.  A rescue is often the best route unless you have been going to shows, evaluating dogs and their lines, speaking with a variety of breeders, and talking to several different Bernese Breed Stewards (who are charged with referring breeders and counseling the public on the breed who are interested).  Our rescue gives you a free one year membership to our club, including our newsletter, integrates and educates you on the breed and gets you involved with the Berner community so that you can then make informed choices in the future about your future dogs.

Please check out my puppy advice on my website: www.naturalk9. com and go to Looking for a Puppy.  Check out the health clearance information.

That breeder is right - there is no health information on an 8 week old puppy to give you.  The research is on the parents, their siblings, their parents, and everything they have produced prior to this current litter.

Most people I know in this breed x-ray their pup's hips, elbows, and shoulders at about 6 months of age to see how things are developing and what they got.  The OFA calls these "prelims" since the pup is still growing.  They go back and do it again at age 2 when the OFA will issue final certification.  I know many more however who do PennHip which can be done at any age and is usually done at about 6-9 months of age with greater accuracy than other methods.

Your care, diet, and treatment affect the health of the puppy - so this is another unknown factor.  Vaccines, chemicals applied to the dog, chemicals in the envioronment, tobacco smoke, poor air quality, lack of exercise, too much exercise too young, lack of proper socialization - all will impact.

Finally, Puppyfinder is a site for unreputable breeders.  No good, reputable breeder resorts to puppy sites of any kind to sell their puppies.  They have waiting lists because they are known for breeding excellent dogs with good longevity and are actively out showing or competing in draft and other sports with them where they are evaluated. They do not advertize in newspapers or sell directly over the internet EVER.  Good breeders may have websites so you can see their dogs and health information etc. but they require more from you (interview, come to them in person etc.) to determine if you are a good fit for one of their puppies.

If you decide to buy a puppy, and not rescue, you should also consider what is important to you.  Different people have different priorities and this will naturally affect your breeder selection.  For me and my lifestyle, orthopedics are VERY important and so is temperament.  I place good structure/soundness and temperament at the top of my list and do not compromise on these.  I also search for longevity in this breed and evaluate the age of death in the pedigree.  For others, who are not very active, and maybe go on short walks each day at most, orthopedics may not be a priority - this is the case for Max's new owners so they were a good fit for him.  Max will trot and gallop around their yard, be a wonderful loving companion and play with their other dog.  He won't be asked to do much more.

Breeders have different priorities - some breed first and foremost for type (the visual appearance) to get a winning show dog and therefore make compromises on orthopedics and temperament.  Some people want type above all else so these breeders are good fits for them.

There are good breeders and bad breeders in the BMDCA. But if you want to find a reputable breeder in this breed - start (and I emphasize start) with the Breed Stewards in the BMDCA.  The BMDCA website lists each one and you can call anyone - they don't have to be in your area.  Many of these stewards are also breeders themselves - a conflict of interest in my view - so I prefer the ones who are NOT breeders - you will get honest, objective guidance from them on who to consider and who to avoid.  If you need help knowing who this is, you may contact me privately - there are several excellent stewards across the country.

You should also contact Berner rescue groups - we can tell you best you is breeding responsibly and taking their dogs back when needed, or burdening our shelter and rescue system by breeding for money.  This by the way is true for any breed - your rescue groups know best because these are the dogs they are taking in and we always know where our rescue dogs come from (and we often contact the breeder to let them know - and that is the ultimate test of a breeder when they dont care or don't offer help).

www.bmdca.org (lists breed stewars, as well as local clubs and their rescues depending on your area)
www.bmdcsew.or g (just for great information)
www.barcinc.ne t (our National Rescue group)
www.bernergard e.org (our health database to allow you to research dogs and their pedigrees)

Good luck!



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Offline jenniferl

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Re: I've Done Research on What to Know, but I Need to Know More
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2008, 09:57:42 am »
Thanks so much, that was really detailed. I was hoping not to repeat anything that had been posted but when I did a search, I wasn't finding exactly what I wanted to know.

I think we're going to end up going with a rescue because it just seems like the better idea to me all around. I won't be seriously looking to buy for another month but I can't wait to post pictures when I finally get my baby :)