Author Topic: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***  (Read 25138 times)

Offline Softhug

  • Top Doggie Dog
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
    • View Profile
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2009, 03:44:53 am »
I understand how you feel, but don't give up on him. Both he and Zak need training. When my 6 year old grandson came to live with us, I took him to obedience training with me and Tink so he could learn the commands and Tink could learn to respect his authority. Tink never snapped at him but did play too rough for little kids (she was 6 months old and pushing 100 lbs). He learned "off" and "back" when Tink would get to rowdy and he did not want to play anymore. He even learned to heal her on a leash (which was funny looking because she really dwarfs him now). Xavier knows now that he sets the level of play with Tink, if he is rough, she is rough. If he is low key, she will be low key, etc. It is up to you, but I think training is absolutely imperative with people with big dogs and little kids even if the dog is mild mannered, the kids need to learn how to treat dogs (their own and strangers). We get complacant when all goes well but freak when there is a close call. Training, training, training! for people and dogs. Follow your heart and do what you need to do but consider this as an option. Good luck.

This message really touched me and made me realize that we DID have options other than rehoming.  It was after reading this and the following post that made me realize that perhaps (to the chagrin of my inlaws) rehoming isn't the only answer.  You're right, we DO get complacant!  I just appreciate your thoughts and experience.   :-*
Jacquie-Undercover Princess
Tsu Ling-Chow Chow-RIP 5/08
Boudreaux-American Mastiff
Griffey-Pi55y, fat, yellow cat
Comrade-red/white Siberian Husky
***************
"Lots of people talk to animals," said Pooh.
"Not that many listen though."
"That's the problem."
***********

Offline Binky

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 604
    • View Profile
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2009, 04:46:52 am »
I hope everything will work out for you and the family.  It's great that you're giving everyone another chance.  I was interested to read this thread as I have a 17 month old and have been thinking about what we would do in this situation.  I will definitely be even more vigilant about keeping Leo away from the dogs when they're sleeping and will be getting him more involved in training when he's a little older.  Great advice everyone, and again,good luck!
Binky-Great Pyrenees
Sophie-Leonberger
McDougal-Papillon
Chicklet-Papillon
Sigfried-Cat  RIP Sigs
Spooky-Cat
Jasper-Nigerian Dwarf goat
Ferdinand-Nigerian Dwarf goat

Offline Softhug

  • Top Doggie Dog
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
    • View Profile
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 05:22:20 am »
Being apart of a mastiff website, this is a very common thing with american mastiffs.  That particular place where you got your kido, has been sued by many mastiff breeders, because the dogs on there are actually mastiffs that they have taken from other peoples websites.  There is an entire article regarding american mastiffs.  I know that you love your dog, although...you r child was put at risk.  Perhaps i should not say more than that for fear of not being allow to write anything anymore...alth ough this is an EXTREME common thing with american mastiffs.

I appreciate your concern.  I don't know that this situation really revolves around JUST FW bred dogs, AM's, or even large breed dogs, in fact, more just dogs in general.  Just a bigger deal when it is a large breed.  When do you ever hear about a chi or other small breed attacking someone (even though it probably happens WAY more often)?  I have learned over the past three years that owners of English Mastiffs seem to take issue with the AM's.  May I ask what type of Mastiff you are owner of?  The profile photo is sweet.  :)  Because the bite wasn't done out of aggression, I am hoping with some additional obedience training including my son, this will stop any additional problems.  My trainer (who is also a family friend) has 16 years of experience handling and training police service dogs. This includes 2,000 hours of basic K9 training, 6,000 hours of In-service training
6 years civilian dog training (Obedience and Personal Protection) and his training includes: Patrol, Narcotics, Explosives, Cadaver, Tracking, Trailing and Search & Rescue.  

Not only is he a fantastic trainer but as I mentioned, a family friend. I know that if he felt Zachary (or any of our family) were in danger or that Boudreaux were aggressive, he would be honest with us about it and I would have him put down.  

I would be extremely interested in reading the article you mentioned, if you could please send the link to me in a private message.  Again, thank you so much for your concern about my son, it is much appreciated.
 :)    
Jacquie-Undercover Princess
Tsu Ling-Chow Chow-RIP 5/08
Boudreaux-American Mastiff
Griffey-Pi55y, fat, yellow cat
Comrade-red/white Siberian Husky
***************
"Lots of people talk to animals," said Pooh.
"Not that many listen though."
"That's the problem."
***********

Offline KiraNGunnersmom

  • Paw-meister
  • **
  • Posts: 526
    • View Profile
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 03:04:44 pm »



  But we adopted Dooley, and he was mostly an angel until I gave him a raspberry on his stomach when I was 15.  Then he bit my head.  My fault totally.  Apparently dogs don't like raspberries on their tummies.  ::) Those were the only two incidents he ever had.  Not aggression, just a little over-reactive, perhaps . . . especially with a teenager who was tormenting him with zerberts, repeatedly.  ::)



This is a totally serious post but the above quote made me LMAO!!
 I am SOOOOO glad to hear that Zac is ok and that you are giving Boudreaux a second chance.
I hope all goes well for you guys keep us updated on all progress made.
Kira- Akita
Gunner-Mastiff
cockateils-Peanut Butter & Jelly
Beta fish-Mak

Offline Softhug

  • Top Doggie Dog
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
    • View Profile
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 04:43:58 pm »
I read this and am very upset..I am a Mastiff lover, owner and Breeder of the REAL Mastiff..Not the mixed Breed who is hated in the Mastiff Community.

First the child should  never should have been left  alone with the dog and a teenager is not an adult, so the child was left alone.

The mix that bit the child has Anatolian in it...Has anyone here read the Standard? From the Anatolian Clubs website and AKC Standard..TEMPERAMENT - Alert and intelligent, calm and observant. Instinctively protective, he is courageous and highly adaptable. He is very loyal and responsive. Highly territorial, he is a natural guard. Reserve around strangers and off its territory is acceptable. Responsiveness with animation is not characteristic of the breed. Overhandling would be discouraged.That means the dog reactive..

The people that breed these dogs are in it for money. Not either the Anatolian Breed or the Mastiff Breed. They are basically Back Yard Breeders.

I wonder how you got stitches and did not have the dog picked up. Dog bites must be reported to Animal Control. HHUUMMM....

The dog needs to either be rehomed or put to sleep. No training and lolly gaggling around. You have a time bomb and are too inexperienced to handle to situation. I did rescue this so called American Mastiff dog once, it bit me for no reason, it is no longer breathing air.

By keeping the dog, you are putting large breed dogs in danger, no one else. This  dog is apt to bite again unless you get it into an experienced home or it is PTS.

It is a good thing it was not a neighbors child or you would have a lawsuit on your hands.

If one of my Mastiffs did this, they would not be breathing.

From your childs sake get rid of the dog.

Perhaps you got bit because you were as volatile with the dog as you are on this board.  There are ways of stating your opinion compassion and class, neither of those ways did you project in your response. But I have found this common by SOME people that own EM's.  Fortunately for you, I am tolerant of it.   

My 17 year old will be graduating this December (half a year early) for nursing school.  She IS an adult and in 8 months will be able to give her life for her country.  She is INCREDIBLY responsible and I have EVERY faith in her to protect her little brother.  I would go as far to say that she would protect him with her life.  She was not 5 feet away from the dog and my son .  It wouldn't have mattered if it would have been me, my husband or Caesar Milan himself, the outcome would have been no different. 

The breeders that breed AM's are in it to help get rid of the ailments that plague the Mastiff.  I respect that.  And please tell me, can I have one of YOUR mastiffs at no charge?  Since the AM breeders (and I quote) "are in it for the money", I assume you breed soley for the love of the breed and take no monetary compensation for your puppies.  If you do, then YOU are in it for the money as well.  ;) 

While I was at the ER getting his stitches, I filled out a bite form that was registered with the county. So in fact, the bite WAS recorded with our county. I am a responsible dog owner and you are assanine to think otherwise.  A dog that bites the first time isn't taken from the home and euthenized...a re you kidding me?  Why don't you consult the animal control or the local authorities in your area to find how it's done.  My husband is a police officer and that isn't how it's done here. 

You say I am too inexperienced (where does THIS opinion come from?  You don't know me at all.)to handle a dog such as this, however we did a years worth of research on the breed prior to getting him and before this, I had a chow (another 'aggressive' breed) for 13 years and she never bit anyone.  My obedience trainer has had (the following is taken from his obedience web site)..."16 years of experience handling and training police service dogs.
2,000 hours of basic K9 training.
6,000 hours of In-service training
6 years civilian dog training (Obedience and Personal Protection)
Craig's numerous training includes:

Patrol
Narcotics
Explosives
Cadaver
Tracking
Trailing
Search and Rescue"

He is NOT a breeder however so I imagine by your standards he knows very little.  We contacted him as we are personal friends of his and asked him his honest opinion.  He also doesn't feel that Boudreaux is an aggressive dog.  If he did, he would tell us.  He knows our family and has small children himself. 

If you care so much about the welfare of my son and this post is with the best interest of everyone, then why the snarky, hateful little "HUMMMMMMMM" in your post?  This board is for people that want to help and the ones that DO disagree, do it in a kind and caring way.  If you continue to post with such guff and hauty attitude, you won't be here long.  I can promise you that. 

Have a day.  :P
Jacquie-Undercover Princess
Tsu Ling-Chow Chow-RIP 5/08
Boudreaux-American Mastiff
Griffey-Pi55y, fat, yellow cat
Comrade-red/white Siberian Husky
***************
"Lots of people talk to animals," said Pooh.
"Not that many listen though."
"That's the problem."
***********

Offline MichelleParlier

  • Gnawer
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
    • American Mastiff Family Forum
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 03:39:56 am »
Again, I want to thank the wonderful members of this board for not allowing breed bashing. 

I was bitten by a dog once in my life, and that was just about two years ago.  I was visiting Frank while he was still in foster care.  The foster parents have several English Mastiffs.  They were all very excited to have company, and one (who is, by the way, a Therapy Dog) got a little too excited and jumped up on me.  He actually got a hold of my shirt in his mouth, ripping a large flap over my left breast.  I was more worried about being exposed than anything else, so I just held the flap in place for the remainder of my visit.  I didnít realize until I got home that he actually broke the skin and I was bleeding.  I now have about a 1-1/2 inch keloid scar on the top of my left breast.  I never told my friend about the laceration, as she felt aboslutely horrible about the incident in the first place, and I didn't want to make her feel any worse.  I KNOW for a fact that the dog didn't intend to hurt me.  He was just over-excited.  The thing is that big dogs can inflict damage with very little force just because of their sheer size.  If it had been a little Puggle or Mini Poodle or another small breed, I'm sure they wouldn't even have the strength to rip my shirt, let alone inflict a 1-1/2 inch tear.  Unlike some others, I would *never* turn my bite incident into an attack on an entire breed.  It was an isolated incident and it was an accident. 

Michelle
AM Murphy, CGC, Certified Therapy Dog (Therapy Dogs International, Inc.)
(Flying W Farms - Kady & Rufus 1-23-05)

epileptic German Shepherd mix Annie (Born 10-4-04 - adopted 5-06 AHF) RIP 5-17-08

EM Maggie (Born 10-17-05 - adopted 12-06 GLMR)

EM Frank (Born 11-11-01 - adopted 10-07 GLMR)

angelsmama

  • Guest
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 04:41:23 am »
Not long before my Dalmatian died, my cousins little boy was spending the day with us. He got up in Dotty's face and started teasing her, pulling her collar and blowing in her face. We told him twice to stop. The third time he went in to bug her Dotty snapped and barely missed his face. And just like your case Holly, he cried to his mom when she got there that my dog tried to bite him. Joy immediately asked "What did you do to the dog Isaiah?" Dotty gave a warning nip, all there was to it. Like many little nips from dogs, if the dog wants to be aggressive, you'd know it. They wouldn't do one bite and stop..

Offline TINKSMOM

  • Veteran Dog Chomper
  • **
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2009, 09:23:46 am »
I think it is amazing how shark bite victims will publicly announce that they hold no animosity toward the shark for being a shark and don't want it hunted down and killed, but a family dog that nips or bites to defend or warn should be put down (hello! dog being a dog here!)

You can't argue with ignorance, so I say don't try. God takes cares of FOOLS and little children, hopefully he is looking out for her (glad to hear she is gone) and will grace her with some common sense and good manners one day.

Anyway, let's not loose track of the objective. You know your dog, your kid and your heart. Do what you think is best for your situation but glad to hear you have an open mind and you know where you can come for support. Good luck and keep us posted.
My name is Lori.

Mom to
Tinkerbear (lab/kom mix)
Harley (Newfy/Saint mix)
Boomer (Cat-russian blue)
RIP - Tater Marie (basset 11/95 to 1/08)
RIP - Velcro (Kitten-Tiger Stripe)

Offline Softhug

  • Top Doggie Dog
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
    • View Profile
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2009, 05:31:44 am »

However, I have been bitten by my own dogs.  Keiko and Nigel have both drawn blood but they were both extenuating circumstances.  Keiko is fear aggressive and i have learned not to grab at her collar when she thinks she is in trouble and is also "cornered".  Well one time both her and Gunther were in trouble and I put keiko in her corner and yelled at Gunther to go in his kennel (which used to be Keiko's which is why she didn't have a kennel to use).  Well, they both then ran in his kennel at the same time.  It was actually kind of funny to see them both squeezed in there, as Gunther was already outgrowing it.  Add Keiko in there and it was a tight fit.   :D



How do you get people to understand that fear aggression is not the same as aggression? 
Jacquie-Undercover Princess
Tsu Ling-Chow Chow-RIP 5/08
Boudreaux-American Mastiff
Griffey-Pi55y, fat, yellow cat
Comrade-red/white Siberian Husky
***************
"Lots of people talk to animals," said Pooh.
"Not that many listen though."
"That's the problem."
***********

Offline Softhug

  • Top Doggie Dog
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
    • View Profile
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2009, 06:31:08 am »
Thank you so much for all your help, thoughts, experiences, etc.  You have all made me feel a lot better about this entire situation.   :-*
Jacquie-Undercover Princess
Tsu Ling-Chow Chow-RIP 5/08
Boudreaux-American Mastiff
Griffey-Pi55y, fat, yellow cat
Comrade-red/white Siberian Husky
***************
"Lots of people talk to animals," said Pooh.
"Not that many listen though."
"That's the problem."
***********

Offline Morweena

  • Ankle Biter
  • *
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: With a heavy heart...***UPDATE***
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2009, 06:12:40 pm »
Good luck with Zac and the pup.
As everyone else has said, he was likely startled or correcting Zac's action.
Working with a trainer to give Zac more control over the dog (and learning first hand that the dog is not a toy) will do nothing but good.
And also as every one has said, the dog clearly didn't mean much more than "oh WTF" or "stop it!", it is possible that the child actually hit a hip and hurt the dog a bit. If he was vicious this incident would have been much much worse. A nip or or non connecting bite lunge (really do not know how to explain that but I am sure you know what I mean) isn't an attack, it is just the dogs way of saying "enough!"
Sounds like you have a good dog that just need to learn the kids is boss and the kid needs to learn how to respect the dog as a dog, not just a buddy.
A dog can move it's head 7 times faster than a human can move its hand (or so a canadian trainer always says on his TV show) if a dog really wants to hurt a person or kid, it can. It is the quality of your dog and its love of your family that is show in that the huge dog didn't hurt your son too badly - the cut might even have been a lucky shot on the part of the dog (you know where the dog pinches skin when it meant to just mouth)

As for the story about Gunther and the ex boy friend in law... well dogs are usually pretty bright when it comes to reading people, we should listen to them more
Ruby - bullmastiff/malamute

Offline kpware

  • Gnawer
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
What is "aggression"
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2009, 07:32:16 am »
Let me first state I am one of those breeders that is only in it for the money. And when I make some I will let you know.

First we need a perspective, first there are several
types of behavior that are commonly called "aggresive"
they are:

1. Territorial - the dog displays protective behavior
only within it's territory which can be a house, a
yard, a kennel etc. It is generally the area in which
the dog is left to run free and dominate.

2. Dominance - the dog displays biting and growling
behavior towards individuals that it considers equal
to or lower than itself in hirearchy but not towards
established alphas.

3. Aggression - the dog attacks humans and other
animals outside of its territory when unthreatened.

4. Fear - the dog is shy and responds to perceived
threats with biting or growling behavior.

5. Resource guarding - the dog displays biting or
growling behavior when a human or animal that is not
an established alpha approaches while the dog is
eating or with a toy or treat.


The first step in handling any "aggression" issue is
to determine which type of behavior the dog is
exhibiting and treat the condition from the standpoint
of behavior modification. This is not necessarily easy
or quick and should not be undertaken without
professional help. Of these five the most dangerous
and difficult is "Aggression" and many times the only
answer is to put the dog to sleep and move on.
Especially with dogs this big and powerful.

For example if I classify your problem as
"Territorial" . Socialization alone will not stop a
dog from being territorial. Your dog has assumed a
dominant role in the protection of its territory and
you need to work to alleviate that situation.
For example:
1. Do not let the dog stay for long periods alone in
the territory.
2. keep the dog on a lead while in the territory and
assert your alpha status vigorously within that
territory.
3. While on the lead have people ask permission to
enter the territory and the you tell the dog it is
alright. IF the dog displays then correct it. Use your
hand and voice to enforce that it is ok.


These are just some of the remediations. Each one of
these five requires different techniques but all
require absolute consistencey.

Kevin